Olber Manifest, and other fables of fantasy

[Backwoodsbob]

I've noticed that nothing is what seem when dealing with any treasure story. What if that ship was on a covert mission at that time and was not registered. Just a wild hunch

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[gollum]

Hal,

Why are you getting mad about that? I can think of literally dozens of things to get angry about that are better than that.

You would have to look at the Olbers Manifest Thread on Ron Feldman's Old LDM Forum, but I don't remember exactly what started it. Someone questioned the document, so a few of us started digging. We all posted just what we found.

Bob,

I don't know what kind of a secret mission a steam liner could have been on in 1839, but I highly doubt it.

Mike

 

[azdave35]

Hal,

Why are you getting mad about that? I can think of literally dozens of things to get angry about that are better than that.

You would have to look at the Olbers Manifest Thread on Ron Feldman's Old LDM Forum, but I don't remember exactly what started it. Someone questioned the document, so a few of us started digging. We all posted just what we found.

Bob,

I don't know what kind of a secret mission a steam liner could have been on in 1839, but I highly doubt it.

Mike

ocd maybe?..lol

 

[cactusjumper]

Hey Joe,

I think maybe some time back on Feldman's Forum. But I don't remember any details. I also don't want to get between you and he and be put in the position of arguing for or against someone when it is not my argument. I said before that nobody is pulling my strings or using me for any purpose. I also think maybe private talks go a lot further than online postings with some subjects, and some people. I have had talks with people over the years (separate from Arizona), that would never post anything online, but don't mind answering via face-to-face or email. Some people are more private than others. I can't say why any person would or would not answer questions on a public forum (even if it is about something they posted online). I noticed that when you asked Matthew by email about the manifest, he told you his side. You seemed to have remembered he even gave you the name of the person/persons he got the manifest from. You might not believe him, but he did answer your question.

It is sort of like the whole Roland Gassler thing. While he has VERY legitimate questions that he and his family deserve answers to, some of those questions are better left OFF-LINE and stay face-to-face (or at least a phone conversation). We have both said that neither Tom K nor Bob C would likely come online to answer Roland's Questions. You said that Tom was willing to talk to Roland via phone. I think the same can be said of Matthew. He has answered every question I have asked him in person (or by email). Personally (and I have stated this before), I don't think the answers to Roland's Questions will reflect negatively on Tom K or Bob C. I think that there are simple answers with no malice or maliciousness on their parts at all. Only that those conversations would be better served offline. My entire point here.


.......and that's all I have to say about thaa'aaaat.

Mike

Mike,

Not sure what you are talking about in the portion I put in bold above. Care to explain?

Hal,

I was suspicious of the manifest right off the bat. As soon as I started investigating it, I was sure it was a fake.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

Not sure what you are talking about in the portion I put in bold above. Care to explain?

Hal,

I was suspicious of the manifest right off the bat. As soon as I started investigating it, I was sure it was a fake.

Good luck,

Joe

I just went and reread your post:

As for the source of the Olber's Manifest, he was the source. In defense, he claimed he paid someone else to procure the manifest for him. Since we were heavily into researching that document, among other "facts", he got quite angry with me that I had not simply asked him who the source was. Believe I still have that email but can assure you he would deny it's authenticity.

I apologize, I thought you had stated something about telling that person's name. I was wrong about that part, but the basic premise of my statement stands, that you asked by privately by email, and he answered your question. Like I said, you may or may not have believed his answer, but that is another story.

I will also say that you know I have been right there in the front of that document's research, and am one of the three people that hammered that thing out from start to finish, and busted it for being a fraud.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Perhaps for those whom still have questions about the Olbers manifest, it would be best to talk to Matthew about it? He left a way to contact him via FB. Just a thought.


I did not catch the manifest being a fraud until reading the research on the LDM (Feldman's) forum. Had no reason to doubt it.

 

[Hal Croves]

Mike,

Not sure what you are talking about in the portion I put in bold above. Care to explain?

Hal,

I was suspicious of the manifest right off the bat. As soon as I started investigating it, I was sure it was a fake.

Good luck,

Joe

Exactly.
The work is so obviously modern that even a novice could discern it as such.
A person like Mike or myself, familiar with graphic art programs can see the perfection and repetition of digital fonts with one look.

A person familiar with historical documents would also reach that same conclusion without much effort.
Just look at the quality of the paper that the manifest is reproduced on. Its pristine.

These are all red flags and the Corbins, no matter how trusting, had more than enough experience to id a fraud.
They also had a publisher who should have been more vigilant.
Something is wrong.

 

[Hal Croves]

I've noticed that nothing is what seem when dealing with any treasure story. What if that ship was on a covert mission at that time and was not registered. Just a wild hunch

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Using the identity of the Olbers while in port?
The problem with that idea is that local maritime reports would need to support the dates found on the forged manifest.
They simply do not.
The document in Helen's book is a modern work and has no resemblance in appearance to an actual ships manifest.
Think about that for a moment.
Then add in the fact that it appears to be printed on new and unblemished paper, with letters and numbers that repeat perfectly and ink that has no bleeding.

Now explain how something so amateurish passes for an authentic document.
It makes no sense.

 

[markmar]

IMO , the Olber manifest from Hellen Corbin's book is a copy from the original . What would did someone in an Archieve where are not allowed cameras and to get copies ? Just make a hand written copy which later will be typed in any font you like . Is a copy because the signature is typed too .

Just a thought .

 

[cactusjumper]

Exactly.
The work is so obviously modern that even a novice could discern it as such.
A person like Mike or myself, familiar with graphic art programs can see the perfection and repetition of digital fonts with one look.

A person familiar with historical documents would also reach that same conclusion without much effort.
Just look at the quality of the paper that the manifest is reproduced on. Its pristine.

These are all red flags and the Corbins, no matter how trusting, had more than enough experience to id a fraud.
They also had a publisher who should have been more vigilant.
Something is wrong.

Hal,

I don't know that I would include Bob in that assessment and, as I have said, Mrs. Corbin was quite ill while assembling the book. Your first clue is all the photo copied pages in the book. Too many shortcuts. I fault neither of them. If others want to kick a sick woman in hind-sight, that says more about them than her, in my book. You have the facts.....consider them.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Old]

I'm going to get into the weeds here a bit. Feel free to skip this post if your head is already exploding with info overload.

I can not screen shot the meat of the manifest as published in Ms. Corbin's book. Mike, if you can add that I think it would advance understanding here.

I've included below a copy of an actual period manifest record and the transcribed version of a portion of it from ISTG records, compliments of Ancestry.

This is the ship "Mississippi" and its arrival in the port of New Orleans on July 16, 1846. I have included this record for two reasons.

The first: Its one of the ship records (but not the only one) that information was "lifted" from to create the fake Olbers Manifest under discussion. Interesting in and of itself.

The second: To show you what an original manifest looks like and what a transcribed one from ISTG looks like. If Mike is kind enough to furnish the screen shot from Ms. Corbin's book of the names list you will see the style is very similar to the ISTG format - as to the PASSENGER list. I feel, certainly not exact, but similar.

The lead in info from the Captain that Mike furnished us is OBVIOUSLY not in the style of ISTG. But, its a little more sketchy as to the passenger list which does conform in type set and style to genuine ISTG prepared lists. I don't think Ms. Corbin was EVER under the impression she was looking at an 1839 document nor made any assertions that's what she was publishing. It was always portrayed as a modern transcription document. The comparison that needs to be made is whether or not the modern TRANSCRIPTION is close enough to fly under the radar as one done in the style of ISTG.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I don't know that I would include Bob in that assessment and, as I have said, Mrs. Corbin was quite ill while assembling the book. Your first clue is all the photo copied pages in the book. Too many shortcuts. I fault neither of them. If others want to kick a sick woman in hind-sight, that says more about them than her, in my book. You have the facts.....consider them.

Joe Ribaudo

You keep returning to the word fault.
I am not interested in judging anyone or assigning blame.

I am interested in the manifest in Helen's book.
I simply want to know if it is a photograph of the original forgery or a reproduction of the original forgery made for the book.

A reproduction made for the book (markmar) would end the debate for me but if it is a photograph of the original forgery, then some part of this story is missing.
I am being told that it is the original and that concerns me.
How could it not?

 

[cactusjumper]

Lynda,

Obviously the "transcribed" portion we have all seen, is not the original manifest and I don't believe Helen saw it that way either. One of the major problems, for me, was the time it took to make the passage compared to other trips that ship and others had made for that era.

The other problem, of course, was the fact that no such record existed.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

I'm going to get into the weeds here a bit. Feel free to skip this post if your head is already exploding with info overload.

I can not screen shot the meat of the manifest as published in Ms. Corbin's book. Mike, if you can add that I think it would advance understanding here.

I've included below a copy of an actual period manifest record and the transcribed version of a portion of it from ISTG records, compliments of Ancestry.

This is the ship "Mississippi" and its arrival in the port of New Orleans on July 16, 1846. I have included this record for two reasons.

The first: Its one of the ship records (but not the only one) that information was "lifted" from to create the fake Olbers Manifest under discussion. Interesting in and of itself.

The second: To show you what an original manifest looks like and what a transcribed one from ISTG looks like. If Mike is kind enough to furnish the screen shot from Ms. Corbin's book of the names list you will see the style is very similar to the ISTG format - as to the PASSENGER list. I feel, certainly not exact, but similar.

The lead in info from the Captain that Mike furnished us is OBVIOUSLY not in the style of ISTG. But, its a little more sketchy as to the passenger list which does conform in type set and style to genuine ISTG prepared lists. I don't think Ms. Corbin was EVER under the impression she was looking at an 1839 document nor made any assertions that's what she was publishing. It was always portrayed as a modern transcription document. The comparison that needs to be made is whether or not the modern TRANSCRIPTION is close enough to fly under the radar as one done in the style of ISTG.

View attachment 1246425 View attachment 1246426 View attachment 1246427

It is so unlike modern transcriptions that calling it a hoax is being dramatic.
It is a poor hoax at best.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

The Olber's Manifest is certainly a conversation from awhile back, so my memory can't be relied on. No doubt you were part of that discussion, but to be truthful, I don't recall your being part of the "team" that went after the facts. Paul did most of the heavy lifting as I remember, finding the record of where some of the manifest was "lifted" from existing records. We certainly covered it to some very minute details. My problem here is that I hate to see Mrs. Corbin's reputation being drug through the weeds. I have read all of the books she authored, some not having anything to do with the LDM, and she was a fine author.

A transcription is a copy of another document, not to be confused as the original document.

As an aside, I did find both Jacob Waltz's and Jacob Wiser's (more than one of each) in records from the Civil War.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Lynda,

Obviously the "transcribed" portion we have all seen, is not the original manifest and I don't believe Helen saw it that way either. One of the major problems, for me, was the time it took to make the passage compared to other trips that ship and others had made for that era.

The other problem, of course, was the fact that no such record existed.

Good luck,

Joe

Ok, Helen did not represent that document to be an original ships manifest.
Understandable and I agree.
Are you saying that Helen believed the document to be a legitimate ISTG transcription?

 

[cactusjumper]

Ok, Helen did not represent that document to be an original ships manifest.
Understandable and I agree.
Are you saying that Helen believed the document to be a legitimate ISTG transcription?

Hal,

Of course! From all accounts, she was an honest and admirable woman.

It would be helpful if you knew to what degree the deceit from her source was carried out. The only truthful/trusted source for that story, for me, would be Bob Corbin. Having spent many, many hours of conversation with the man, much of it about this subject, I believe I know what I am talking about here. Matthew's story is his own unique version. We will all have to believe whichever man's story is the correct one. You should probably not trust my version, as I have my own problems with memory. On the other hand, I do remember, precisely, Bob's account of how Matthew came to Helen, and why. Others have also heard the story directly from Bob.

Matthew has said Bob's stories about him are not true. You will have to come to your own conclusions about that.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Old]

quote: ........"Are you saying that Helen believed the document to be a legitimate ISTG transcription? "

I'm saying I believe it entirely possible that she did. If Mike will post the screen shots of the list of immigrant names from the Corbin illustration I think there is enough similarity in the style for the fake to fly undetected.

I think the discussion of knowing (or not knowing) it was a modern transcription and not a period document is a straw man argument. I don't think that difference was ever in play. Not so far as Ms. Corbin is concerned.

We are blessed with 20/20 hindsight. Ms. Corbin was not. I understand she was quite ill at the time. Her major thoughts and concerns were in other directions.

There are a number of factors we have to consider. I'm lead to believe Ms. Corbin trusted her source completely. The source vouched for authenticity and urged her to include it in her work. Ms. Corbin had no reason to suspect fraud as the source was highly regarded on the subject within the wider community. Its a sad happening regardless of how it came to be.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

Of course! From all accounts, she was an honest and admirable woman.

It would be helpful if you knew to what degree the deceit from her source was carried out. The only truthful/trusted source for that story, for me, would be Bob Corbin. Having spent many, many hours of conversation with the man, much of it about this subject, I believe I know what I am talking about here. Matthew's story is his own unique version. We will all have to believe whichever man's story is the correct one. You should probably not trust my version, as I have my own problems with memory. On the other hand, I do remember, precisely, Bob's account of how Matthew came to Helen, and why. Others have also heard the story directly from Bob.

Matthew has said Bob's stories about him are not true. You will have to come to your own conclusions about that.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

No doubt Helen was an honest person and admired by friends.
I guess my last question is about her level of experience.
Do you believe that Helen considered the document an original ISTG transcription or do you think that she had the original forgery reproduce for her book?

 

[Hal Croves]

quote: ........"Are you saying that Helen believed the document to be a legitimate ISTG transcription? "

I'm saying I believe it entirely possible that she did. If Mike will post the screen shots of the list of immigrant names from the Corbin illustration I think there is enough similarity in the style for the fake to fly undetected.

I think the discussion of knowing (or not knowing) it was a modern transcription and not a period document is a straw man argument. I don't think that difference was ever in play. Not so far as Ms. Corbin is concerned.

We are blessed with 20/20 hindsight. Ms. Corbin was not. I understand she was quite ill at the time. Her major thoughts and concerns were in other directions.

There are a number of factors we have to consider. I'm lead to believe Ms. Corbin trusted her source completely. The source vouched for authenticity and urged her to include it in her work. Ms. Corbin had no reason to suspect fraud as the source was highly regarded on the subject within the wider community. Its a sad happening regardless of how it came to be.

Actually, it is not an argument at all.
It was a question.
You have shown examples of an original ISTG transcription and after comparing the two, you honestly believe that Helen was so taken with the source that she put experience and good judgement aside in a leap of faith?
I am not convinced.
Which is why I would like to see the original forged ISTG transcription if the one in the book is not the original.

You wrote that Helen was ill at the time and suggest that illness may have been a factor.
Are you sure about the dates?