Peaceful Cultures Living in Harmony with Nature

[uniface]

skeletons of 128 of those hunter-gatherer women display damage from arrows and sharp objects such as knives comparable to skeletal injuries of 289 presumed male warriors, Pilloud and her colleagues found. Whether those women fought alongside men or carried out other dangerous battle duties, such as sneaking up on enemies to cut their bow strings, can't be determined from their bones. Individuals in this sample came from 19 Native American groups in central California, and had lived in any of five time periods between around 5,000 and 200 years ago.

https://www.sott.net/article/433545-Hunter-gatherer-skeleton-damage-hints-that-some-women-may-have-fought-in-battles

 

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[DizzyDigger]

In vicious battles, there is little doubt that the women would fight
for their lives. Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Corner a Cottontail rabbit and it too will fight like a demon for
it's life.

 

[Kray Gelder]

I have no doubt that women fought alongside men in ancient cultures. Why wouldn't they? Maybe the old and infirm held back to watch the children, but it makes sense that it was all hands on deck for an existential threat. It may be, and again, why not, that both sexes were involved in offensive warfare as well. The 19th and 20th century European and American anthropologists and archeologists transferred their societal norms, onto the ancient cultures they were studying. That mistake is still made today. An incorrect assumption, IMO.

 

[releventchair]

Having evidence of weapon induced trauma does not guarantee willing participation in battle.
Victims overwhelmed /caught must be considered.
Torture and cannibalism can be considered as well.

Deliberate warrior upbringing is worth a study of bone joints.
European evidence of bowyers malformed shoulder joints for example.
North American era of atlatl use should show affect on one shoulder vs both.
But then , labor performed by woman could have been affecting certain joints more than others in work men did not perform as much.
Hide work of fleshing ,breaking, ect. Hoeing.
Comparisons to the joints of males of the same era might be telling.
Even cnemial crests differences may have something to suggest.

(Note , I do not encourage disturbance of bones. Should a tribe or nation relocate or re intern any , the potential for measurements exists if done respectfully. Somethings I for one can go without knowing. But speculation of female roles in warfare warrant more than hypothesis based on weapon trauma= willing participation in warfare.)

 

[tnmudman]

This article seems to me to be pushing a hypothesis which they want to be true. Maybe they have an agenda? I didn't read anything that points to females being "bad ass women" as one of them suggested. It was stated that there was evidence of males and females having ridden horses in combat. I would like to know how they can ascertain that by looking at bones.

 

[uniface]

The 19th and 20th century European and American anthropologists and archeologists transferred their societal norms, onto the ancient cultures they were studying. That mistake is still made today. An incorrect assumption, IMO.

They had Sioux, Apache, Blackfoot and a number of other tribes not long removed from active warfare to consult & get an overall sense of.

FWIW, I greatly distrust the attempted imposition of Marxist ideological infatuations into our conception of the past.

Until recently, the assimilation has been the other way around. E.g., I once (ca. 1964) asked a Susquehannock shaman who had grown up the old way whether his people had saved the artifacts they found in their fields, assuming these would be valued as we would value our antiques. He looked at me like I was feebleminded and said, "When you dig up old tin cans and broken bottles in your gardens, do you save them? We had steel knives and tools. Why would we want stone ones ?" This, I recognised from reading, was an example of the typical "Indian" mentality -- extremely practical -- un-sentimental and and matter-of-fact.
The change in this has been due 100% to absorbing the attitudes & values of "the majority culture" around them.

 

[ToddsPoint]

In IL, the collapse of the Hopewell culture and the coming of the bow and arrow at roughly the same time is what initiated all the violence of the Late Woodland period. The did a lot of killing after that. Gary

 

[chub]

So proof (?) of more of a dog eat dog survival mindset than the modern utopia version with unicorns and rainbows?

chub

 

[Charl]

In colonial New England, the English are credited with introducing “total war”, meaning slaughtering old men, women, and children, and this type of war is described as foreign to the New England native bands.


One example is often used to illustrate native reaction to seeing the English practice total war: The English attack on the Pequot fortified village in Mystic, Ct. in 1637, an engagement during the Pequot War, which was the first war of the English against a New England band.


The various tribes often aligned with the English when it involved disputes against a rival tribe, or a tribe which held the upper hand in a tribute relationship. Thus, the Narragansett regarded the Pequot as rival and joined the colonial forces attacking the Pequot fort. But contemporary accounts relate that when the Narragansett saw the English set fire to the fort, with the aim of roasting to death old men, women, and children, the Narragansett were seen firing their weapons harmlessly in the air, and, in other cases, withdrawing from the field of battle altogether. They had not signed on to practice this type of slaughter of their rivals.


This type of indiscriminate slaughtering of non warriors was not how rival tribal bands conducted themselves when warring against rival bands.


But, they adopted. When it was the Narragansett’s turn to be burned alive, during the Great Swamp Massacre of Dec. 1675, during King Philip’s War, Mohegan allies of the English too part.

 

[Kray Gelder]

So proof (?) of more of a dog eat dog survival mindset than the modern utopia version with unicorns and rainbows?

chub

The Disney version of Native life is just a fantasy. Human behavior and instinct is relatively universal. It's the fleeting cultures that periodically embrace peace. It's not our normal.

That being said, why did community defenses like walls or fortified structures not take hold in America, as they did throughout the globe? Does that indicate more infrequent warfare? Or did the thought not occur to anyone in the 20 million or so population?

 

[tnmudman]

So proof (?) of more of a dog eat dog survival mindset than the modern utopia version with unicorns and rainbows?

chub

I don't recall anyone here saying they believe the Indians lived a utopian lifestyle. What I believe about it has come from reading books, not watching pocahontas cartoons . I told a friend of mine once that some tribes of Indians took great pride in being good thieves, especially when it came to horses. He was very offended, about got fighting mad over it. He had bought into the Hollywood/ Disney version. I do not.

 

[Twitch]

This article seems to me to be pushing a hypothesis which they want to be true. Maybe they have an agenda? I didn't read anything that points to females being "bad ass women" as one of them suggested. It was stated that there was evidence of males and females having ridden horses in combat. I would like to know how they can ascertain that by looking at bones.

Pre contact North Americans did not have access to horses or any other domesticated ‘rideable’ animal....

 

[uniface]

FWIW, Woodland sites were typically on river terraces behind timber walls.

Horse riding, like archery, produces identifiable skeletal deformations.

 

[tnmudman]

Pre contact North Americans did not have access to horses or any other domesticated ‘rideable’ animal....

No, not until the Spanish brought them. The study went up as late as 200 years ago though.

 

[Kray Gelder]

FWIW, Woodland sites were typically on river terraces behind timber walls.

Horse riding, like archery, produces identifiable skeletal deformations.

Didn't know they had walls. Thanks.

 

[uniface]

Exploring Maryland's Roots: Visit a Woodland Indian Village: Help

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...an_village_drawing_by_Le_Moyne_de_Morgues.jpg

 

[Tnmountains]

Richard: I replied to your PM but it doesn't seem like it got through. Same thing happened with a Joshua Reem PM about a week ago. I'm not ignoring you guys. Sorry for putting this here -- no other way to communicate with you. You can erase this, or I will when you respond.

I ended up making a post on here about the old article. It was if you could tell if someone was left or right handed by the tools they made.

 

[newnan man]

If anyone has read any of Allan W. Eckerts books on the Ohio frontier you will quickly realize that the various native tribes were anything but peaceful. His novel "The Frontiersman" is a superb historical novel.

 

[Tnmountains]

The first settlers that came through my town on a raft were attacked stoned and women children and men were killed and chased for miles.Well documented first contact and where. Am sure every area had different interactions.

 

[Charl]

One reason New England authorities were able to play local bands off against each other is because relations between and among the numerous bands inhabiting southern New England were often far from peaceful. This incident occurred on Block Island some 30 years prior to the Pilgrims arrival at Plymouth...