Peter's Canyon, The Jeauits, and the Lost Dutchman

[Idahodutch]

First, that is what Bicknel wrote and not the first person or second person as to what Waltz said to be commonly believed to be accurate, but not guaranteed. Waltz says high peaks to the south, and really as far as Butte it was not in the Mexacans vernacular, so Bieknel who is regarded as not being accurate and also getting information d
from Julia Thomas who was thankfully a total incompetent( otherwise the mine may have been found). to add to this our editor is an English - Spanish professor who said that mid-nineteenth Mexicans would not have used the word, Butte. and technically it is not butte. however, Waltz's doodle is.

Hello Jeff,
Seems I struck a nerve or something.
You were responding to Ancientones, I believe, about his use of names …. Associated with the 5 mile diameter clue….. and also a peak to the south.
The clues we have are the clues we have 🤪
You don’t need to attempt to trash folk, just cause what they wrote, or said, doesn’t fit your spot. So why do it?

You seemed to have come across a whole slew of clues , previously worded in a way that is unknown to most of us.
I have to ask you a serious question.

Did you find a list of clues, worded in a way that just happened to be matching up to your spot, or did you just simply change the wording to make it look like you were actually on to something, associated with the LDM?

If I’m all out of whack here, then please tell me how things really are.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

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[jeffhowlett]

Hello Jeff,
Seems I struck a nerve or something.
You were responding to Ancientones, I believe, about his use of names …. Associated with the 5 mile diameter clue….. and also a peak to the south.
The clues we have are the clues we have 🤪
You don’t need to attempt to trash folk, just cause what they wrote, or said, doesn’t fit your spot. So why do it?

You seemed to have come across a whole slew of clues , previously worded in a way that is unknown to most of us.
I have to ask you a serious question.

Did you find a list of clues, worded in a way that just happened to be matching up to your spot, or did you just simply change the wording to make it look like you were actually on to something, associated with the LDM?

If I’m all out of whack here, then please tell me how things really are.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[jeffhowlett]

Idahodutch Even though this is a great I site I do not check it out as much as I used to. I have seen some of your posts and they always seemed for the most part thought out and interesting. Clues are clues and only clues until they become fact. I do not even know who posted the Biecknel clue stuff so it was not personal, merely stating that Biecknel was known to have his facts wrong. My point is that the most referred to beliefs of what the Mexicans said and not what he wrote. But these could be incorrect unless you have a hat on the mountain. As far as fitting our location it matters not what it may have been called......El Sombrero, Sombreo Butt, La Sombreo ( hat on a mountain). Interestingly we have a hat on a mountain that looks like a Sombrero... We did not realize for 3 years after being on site it was also there. I could care less about making something fit it either does or does not. It has been called all those things by people past and present, Sadly even Weaver Needle. And frankly, there is a Sombreo Buute, which most likely has nothing to do with what the Mexicans were referring to. Becknel may have miss written. And by the way, a Butte has a flat top and a Sombrero hat does not. Also, this is why I stopped posting because every 12 months or so there is a new lead poster who wants to be buddy-buddy with everyone and thinks he is the new gatekeeper nice guy so everyone likes him, so he is popular. but from you I was surprised, So Idaho please do not accuse me of dissing other posters. We have what we have and people will judge for themselves, we do not need a fitted M.O. One last thing only facts will matter or not matter. Estee Conatser who I believe was a decent researcher along with others referred to it first as La Sombreo (hat on a mountain) and said that weaver's needle did not fit that description, and certainly, a flat-topped Butte is not the best description of a Sombreo. If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck it is probably a duck.

If a mountaintop clearly has a hat feature on top that freakishly resembles a sombrero hat and it has old Spanish mining activity below it, and it is in the Superstition Mountains and no one else has shared this... enough said.
Everyone has a nice spring weekend. Thank You, Jeff,

 

[Idahodutch]

Hello Jeff,
It sounds like you might have missed the point.

please let me share something that occurred to me about my demeanor with you.
In hind sight, I think there was some bad after taste from previous exposure to your postings and proclamations in general, that I think was adding some seasoning to my post. (Bad form on my part)
I have received your proclamations of finding the LDM, to be someone’s imagination and fantasy run uncontrolled. You say your research is based on clues (bits of information), but openly distrust the clues (bits of information). So it makes sense for you to change them as they seem to be needing, or to dismiss whatever portions, that to you, are obvious mistakes. 🤷🏼‍♂️
Good luck to you Jeff.
Idahodutch.

 

[dredgernaut]

i try to appreciate everybody's proclamations or theories.. why not just read, appreciate or ignore. to get worked up, carry ill feeling or argue is pointless.. everyone is welcome to have and share their ideas.. no one needs to be told they are wrong.. there is not actual proof that any of said clues are even in the proper sequence.. they are all relayed be word of mouth over 100 years.. there is no proof of any kind strong enough to tell anybody they are wrong , unless your holding the gold.. but i have been around here a long time, and a lot of these posts are becoming more bitter and personal.. i no longer post other than pics , because there are so many nay-sayers.. what's the point of sharing if your going to be shot down.. thanks Idaho and jeff.. both of your expeditions are fun to watch and read.. however neither of you can prove anything.. I'm no different,, no proof.. just saying..

 

[Idahodutch]

i try to appreciate everybody's proclamations or theories.. why not just read, appreciate or ignore. to get worked up, carry ill feeling or argue is pointless.. everyone is welcome to have and share their ideas.. no one needs to be told they are wrong.. there is not actual proof that any of said clues are even in the proper sequence.. they are all relayed be word of mouth over 100 years.. there is no proof of any kind strong enough to tell anybody they are wrong , unless your holding the gold.. but i have been around here a long time, and a lot of these posts are becoming more bitter and personal.. i no longer post other than pics , because there are so many nay-sayers.. what's the point of sharing if your going to be shot down.. thanks Idaho and jeff.. both of your expeditions are fun to watch and read.. however neither of you can prove anything.. I'm no different,, no proof.. just saying..

Good morning Dredgernaut,
I agree with most of what you posted.
I do ok except when posters start trashing clues, and changing them, even saying the the folk they came from were incompetent and much worse than that.…. Clues that have been the same for decade's and the folk making these declarations are usually where the incompetent finger really should be pointed. Not always, but usually.

If you reread my posts, you’ll see, that I was inquiring as to the finger pointing statements…… inquiring, because I like the finger pointers to reveal outright, the disdain they hold, for all to see. To let them expose their thinking, and prejudices.
I guess a weakness of mine.

When Someone wants to know what a clue, or clues say, and someone gives an answer, based on the records, then gets told how bad the source is, and then says things that are false. Sometimes attacking the person bringing forth the correction.
I have a hard time just shutting up and going away. Another weakness of mine.
I think it’s important to hold each other accountable to what little facts we have.
I have asked this community to hold me accountable, because it is so easy to see what we want and to ignore what we don’t like.

There are at time debates over this stuff, but often common sense only can rule if parties are willing to submit to truth, and admit when something is truth or opinion.

Clues are tough …. They can be factual, as far as they actually came from an article, or interview, but the person providing the info, could be off base …..
but the fact remains, of the article or interview itself … and the words that were used.


In this case, it all started because Ancient ones was talking about a clue, and Jeff didn’t like the terminology, and was correcting Ancientones, but Jeff also was incorrect, I I thought I was being neutral by providing info about what clues actually said.

Then wham, we all get to hear Jeff trash Bicknell, and Julia.

I guess I took the bait and ran with it.

I apologize to all of you, if I was out of line.
I should mention, I most likely would take the same bait again, but maybe not.

Idahodutch

 

[jeffhowlett]

i try to appreciate everybody's proclamations or theories.. why not just read, appreciate or ignore. to get worked up, carry ill feeling or argue is pointless.. everyone is welcome to have and share their ideas.. no one needs to be told they are wrong.. there is not actual proof that any of said clues are even in the proper sequence.. they are all relayed be word of mouth over 100 years.. there is no proof of any kind strong enough to tell anybody they are wrong , unless your holding the gold.. but i have been around here a long time, and a lot of these posts are becoming more bitter and personal.. i no longer post other than pics , because there are so many nay-sayers.. what's the point of sharing if your going to be shot down.. thanks Idaho and jeff.. both of your expeditions are fun to watch and read.. however neither of you can prove anything.. I'm no different,, no proof.. just saying..

 

[Kona Koma]

After reading all the above all I can say is:

WOW!! You boys need to get out there and swing some coils instead of swinging those “haymakers.” Said with 😂. I enjoyed reading the back and forth. Much over my head, but clearly passionate perspectives. Keep hunting!

 

[jeffhowlett]

Thank you dredgernaut Maybe Idaho has found something, I thought a while back he might be in the same place as us, but, but I changed my mind and now believe he is in a different place than us. I however cannot say what Idaho has or does not have. And to be fair neither can you, you can say that you have not seen enough to believe he is in the right place, and that would be fair. Anyone that has found things that are new and may be significant is not going to post them on a public forum site, why would they? As far as What Idaho last wrote there are 3 total miss-quotes that are not at all what I said, which tells me not to even respond to them and I will not. The last comment here... the miss quotes by Idaho in all fairness could be honest mistakes brought on by retention-level issues. Trying to converse with those issues on board only leads to more misrepresentations, which over time becomes fruitless. Thank you, Jeff,

 

[Idahodutch]

Thank you dredgernaut Maybe Idaho has found something, ……… Anyone that has found things that are new and may be significant is not going to post them on a public forum site, why would they? …….

Hmmm, I suppose you’re serious?
I was crippled up, no longer able to continue my search on foot. I felt I was very close to finishing and figured it might help someone else. So I decided to share my search here on treasure net, even though it was not a complete search.
After 1-1/2 years of sharing, the unthinkable actually happened, the hidden camp location (or so it looks) was revealed by circumstance, to not just me, but to many here on the forums, and at the same time.
If you know your lore about this, then you know how significant that clue is. The wording is very peculiar about locating the hidden camp… especially if the wording is not changed at all. It was actually, almost miraculous …. IMO 🤷🏼‍♂️
I’m sorry if you missed it 🤓😎

So, sometimes things do get posted Jeff, even if you do not understand.

………. the miss quotes by Idaho in all fairness could be honest mistakes brought on by retention-level issues. Trying to converse with those issues on board only leads to more misrepresentations,……….

Wow Jeff …… really?

 

[Sentinel]

Greetings everyone,

Quick introduction: my name is LD Whitney and I'm an author of fictional adventure thrillers. I'm researching for a novel that combines some of my favorite Arizona Legends about the Jesuits and the Lost Dutchman Mine.

While reading "the Sterling Legend" the author mentions on page 32 that Peter's Canyon fits a number of Dutchman Clues but not all (because none do). I see a lot of focus on Weever's Needle, La Barge Canyon, and so on, but why not Peter's?

I'm currently trying to work out some kind of clue that would lead my main characters to Peter's Canyon above the other well tread options.

Thoughts? Thanks in advance!

I am not sure if anyone was any help here, I would say since you are writing fiction, then you have the creative control to write the narrative anyway you like. Personally, I know more of the failure and lack of any real evidence in the area comparative with other more likely spots. In that case just use something associated with any area and adjust it to fit your story, that is what happens here 9 times out of 10. Using dozens of examples of failures for a hundred years is kind of working against your hypothesis. A better suggestion in this case is create a fictional journal or letters to support the narrative, it is not like it has not been done many times before and continues today.

 

[gollum]

Okay. So I am 100% with ClayDiggins on this (except the SWA was 1984 not 1964 typo?). Resolution Trust has the ENTIRE Eastern end of the Superstitions under claim. Woody and Frank's Lower Claim was filed OVER Resolution's(found out after). Drive deep into Hewitt Canyon, and you will see hundreds of well pipes where they drilled to inspect the rock at depth, and also to get water to run through a gas chromatograph to check dissolved mineral content. Also, anybody taking a story from Michael Bilbrey as gospel is foolish. After the Stone Crosses, Bilbrey was involved in a fraudulent cancer cure scheme. He was found guilty, by the way. Jim Hatt talked to Bilbrey several times and tried to get him to come to a Rendezvous. He saw where Ribaudo was yakking about his cancer cure fraud, and he backed out. When Jim was dying of cancer, he gave me Bilbrey's Phone Number and wanted me to try again to get him to a Rendezvous. Then Bilbrey up and died in 2012 (IIRC). Now, I have to interject one thing here. NOWHERE is it written that one has to be an honest and kind person to find a treasure. Shitty people get rich too! HAHAHA

So Clay, based on what you posted, is "Mylandmatters" or "MineCache" yours, or do you do that working for.........Resolution or Bagdad? LOL One of the people I work with used to run Bagdad, but when they ran out of promotion room he came over to APS as a VP of Construction.

.......and yes. Anyone can prospect in the Wilderness. You can also rock hound (I think the limit is a small sack IIRC). You just can't start digging on a vein if you find it in the SWA. They won't approve your claim in the SWA. You can file it and pay your money. The BLM will gladly accept your money, but you won't get the claim. The ONLY thing you MAY be able to get is a Treasure Trove Permit (but that only applies to "worked" metal objects like plates, coins, statues, etc). I used to run some interference for J. Scott Wood who used to be the Head Archaeologist for the Tonto NF (IIRC), and I know getting a Treasure Trove Permit is all but impossible without a BUNCH of proof (and a hand signed note from Jesus).

Mike

PS
I had to add a quick Superstitions RockHounding Story: Frank Augustine was out with Wayne Spencer (Somehiker). Wayne was constantly complaining about his pack. Frank told him to lighten his load some. Wayne pulled off his pack and it was FULL of rocks he had picked up (I think Frank said it was 40-50 pounds) LOL.

 

[Clay Diggins]

So Clay, based on what you posted, is "Mylandmatters" or "MineCache" yours, or do you do that working for.........Resolution or Bagdad?

I helped found and create the Land Matters non profit and website 10 years ago. I built the mapping engine and did all the coding. I still maintain and update the site. It's a labor of love. it's an all volunteer organization committed to providing free information about land. Nothing to do with mining companies. Land Matters is entirely supported by it's users.

I have no association with Minecache or any other pay to play site.

My profession is Landman and Cartographer. I determine land status, ownership, mineral rights etc and I map the results as well as writing reports on the results of my research. I'm independent, and always have been. Although mining companies contract me for work I've never been an employee.

I used to spend a lot of time in the field and traveling but the last few years since my partner passed I have had to change my work profile. I work for mining companies, insurance companies, rating agencies and environmental groups for the most part. I often work for some of the largest corporations in the world but the nature of my work requires that I don't reveal who I'm working for or what I am working on.

 

[gollum]

I helped found and create the Land Matters non profit and website 10 years ago. I built the mapping engine and did all the coding. I still maintain and update the site. It's a labor of love. it's an all volunteer organization committed to providing free information about land. Nothing to do with mining companies. Land Matters is entirely supported by it's users.

I have no association with Minecache or any other pay to play site.

My profession is Landman and Cartographer. I determine land status, ownership, mineral rights etc and I map the results as well as writing reports on the results of my research. I'm independent, and always have been. Although mining companies contract me for work I've never been an employee.

I used to spend a lot of time in the field and traveling but the last few years since my partner passed I have had to change my work profile. I work for mining companies, insurance companies, rating agencies and environmental groups for the most part. I often work for some of the largest corporations in the world but the nature of my work requires that I don't reveal who I'm working for or what I am working on.

Yeah. I remember when you first came out talking about LandMatters. Its better than LR2000. LOL Thanks for doing that. Really is a great site. I also use MineCache and CalTOPO, but I try and support locals whenever possible.

MAN, why the *uck are we fighting all the time? Hell, we know the same people. Dislike the same person WINKWINK Have some of the same hobbies/obsessions, and been to a lot of the same places. HAHAHA

Mike

 

[Cubfan64]

Mike, you posted above...

PS
I had to add a quick Superstitions RockHounding Story: Frank Augustine was out with Wayne Spencer (Somehiker). Wayne was constantly complaining about his pack. Frank told him to lighten his load some. Wayne pulled off his pack and it was FULL of rocks he had picked up (I think Frank said it was 40-50 pounds) LOL.

I heard that once too - if that isn't a perfect way to remember Wayne, I don't know what is I'm sure he's smiling and laughing as we read that story!

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Okay. So I am 100% with ClayDiggins on this (except the SWA was 1984 not 1964 typo?). Resolution Trust has the ENTIRE Eastern end of the Superstitions under claim. Woody and Frank's Lower Claim was filed OVER Resolution's(found out after). Drive deep into Hewitt Canyon, and you will see hundreds of well pipes where they drilled to inspect the rock at depth, and also to get water to run through a gas chromatograph to check dissolved mineral content. Also, anybody taking a story from Michael Bilbrey as gospel is foolish. After the Stone Crosses, Bilbrey was involved in a fraudulent cancer cure scheme. He was found guilty, by the way. Jim Hatt talked to Bilbrey several times and tried to get him to come to a Rendezvous. He saw where Ribaudo was yakking about his cancer cure fraud, and he backed out. When Jim was dying of cancer, he gave me Bilbrey's Phone Number and wanted me to try again to get him to a Rendezvous. Then Bilbrey up and died in 2012 (IIRC). Now, I have to interject one thing here. NOWHERE is it written that one has to be an honest and kind person to find a treasure. Shitty people get rich too! HAHAHA

So Clay, based on what you posted, is "Mylandmatters" or "MineCache" yours, or do you do that working for.........Resolution or Bagdad? LOL One of the people I work with used to run Bagdad, but when they ran out of promotion room he came over to APS as a VP of Construction.

.......and yes. Anyone can prospect in the Wilderness. You can also rock hound (I think the limit is a small sack IIRC). You just can't start digging on a vein if you find it in the SWA. They won't approve your claim in the SWA. You can file it and pay your money. The BLM will gladly accept your money, but you won't get the claim. The ONLY thing you MAY be able to get is a Treasure Trove Permit (but that only applies to "worked" metal objects like plates, coins, statues, etc). I used to run some interference for J. Scott Wood who used to be the Head Archaeologist for the Tonto NF (IIRC), and I know getting a Treasure Trove Permit is all but impossible without a BUNCH of proof (and a hand signed note from Jesus).

Mike

PS
I had to add a quick Superstitions RockHounding Story: Frank Augustine was out with Wayne Spencer (Somehiker). Wayne was constantly complaining about his pack. Frank told him to lighten his load some. Wayne pulled off his pack and it was FULL of rocks he had picked up (I think Frank said it was 40-50 pounds) LOL.

I had an encounter with a uniformed and armed Federale at an undisclosed location. He questioned my gatherings. He cited some law about one can only take as much as you can carry with one hand or some such ( been a while). I dismounted my backpack. carefully gathered the shoulder straps and then the center handle in one hand and hoisted it up. Then gently set it down so as not to reveal my fatigue nor to burst it. He stood quiet as did I for a while.


Eventually he told me to leave the area and not pick up even another spec of dust. We never discussed my cargo pants and other conveyances. I left and never looked back