Pit dig produces 1680s James II token

[Bill D. (VA)]

On Saturday my good buddies Stan, Dan, KMac and I decided another trip to our favorite 17th century trash dump was in order, and we were able to take advantage of some great weather. We focused in a new area, the one where I was able to pull a wine bottle seal dated 1719 at the end of the last dig. Although there was plenty of early glass in this spot, only one of us was fortunate enough to recover another intact seal (see last photo of KMac's unique seal plus a nice spectacle buckle). Everyone dug some goodies, and although my finds weren't earth-shattering, I managed to recover what I originally thought was a hammered copper coin (22mm). However, after Dan providing a major assist on the ID, it was eventually thought to be some sort of 1680s James II token or possibly a jetton, although jettons were on their way out by this time so I'm leaning toward the token theory. I could probably attempt to clean it a little better to enhance some of the details, but decided to only use dry cleaning techniques to avoid any further damage. I have recovered other 17th century tokens before, including one from this site, but this particular example is a first for me. As always, I thoroughly enjoyed the comradery with my friends, and can't wait to get back and give it another shot.

 

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[Bill D. (VA)]

Love the token and buckle Bill. Kennymac’s seal is also awesome. A great hunt all around!

Yep, KMac was in possession of the golden horseshoe on Sat, and I'm sure will be unwilling to relinquish control of it on our next outing. But I'll do my best to wrestle it away from him .....

 

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[CRUSADER]

Looks like the jury is still out on this piece, so I forwarded pics this morning to my friend and colonial coin expert Tom Kays for ID. Tom previously performed an extremely detailed inventory of all my colonial coins, tokens and jettons so I feel confident he can come up with a precise ID. He has extensive expertise with jettons, so if this is what I have he'll know and can probably determine its origin and approximate date of manufacture. I'll post his comments once he's had a chance to check this out.

It will be in my larger Jetton books because that's what it is. I will spend time looking for a full reference if your still poking about?

 

[CRUSADER]

So Jetton as in token or medal? The obverse of the coin found is the same or similar to the coronation medal issued but the reverse is different. Also, this crown issued tin or gunmetal plantation tokens for the colonies so I wonder if that's what this was.

A jetton is techniquely neither a token or medallion/medal.
Its a 'counting token' or rechenpfennig (Counting penny) as the Germans would say. A token has an exchange value, this has none, it was used on a board similar to the principles of a abacus to work out taxes. (Calculate large sums)​

 

[Steve in PA]

Another great day spent in the trenches Bill. Love the jetton/token/?. Also love KMac's buckle and seal. It's gonna be a dirty job getting the horse shoe back, but I'm sure you're up to the task.

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

It will be in my larger Jetton books because that's what it is. I will spend time looking for a full reference if your still poking about?

That would be great Cru - thanks!

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

A jetton is techniquely neither a token or medallion/medal.
Its a 'counting token' or rechenpfennig (Counting penny) as the Germans would say. A token has an exchange value, this has none, it was used on a board similar to the principles of a abacus to work out taxes. (Calculate large sums)​

I guess since I've never seen a jetton with a monarch's bust on it I thought it might be something else. It's also not nearly as thin as the late 16th and early 17th century examples I've recovered before. But I will gladly defer to the experts .....

 

[CRUSADER]

I guess since I've never seen a jetton with a monarch's bust on it I thought it might be something else. It's also not nearly as thin as the late 16th and early 17th century examples I've recovered before. But I will gladly defer to the experts .....

Many, many types mirroring the coins they are copying. As they sold them to the Countries in question, I've seen many bust types of every Country.

When I get home, I'll get the full details.​

 

[pepperj]

Nice going on the piece Bill, looking forward on reading the ID on what it turns out to be. I was thinking Polish then German/Netherlands from the 1690s period. Does look like it got a bit toasty from heat.

 

[CRUSADER]

Its known as an 'English style Jetton' Produced in Nuremberg Germany by Lazarus Gottlieb Lauffer. Master (maker) from 1663 to 1709.

Interestingly your Obverse legend is not in the book, not unusual as there were many types, the most common was the shorter version;
CAROLVS II DEI GRATIA

Yours is;
CAROLVS II DG ANG SCOT E HIB REX

 

[JamieD]

Hi Cru, Is the obverse not R? IACOB II DG etc. for James II?

 

[CRUSADER]

Hi Cru, Is the obverse not R? IACOB II DG etc. for James II?

Yes, but I can't read the first bit to be sure. I will research a couple of options in case.

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

Yes, but I can't read the first bit to be sure. I will research a couple of options in case.

There is no "R" - that's just an imperfection on the surface.

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

Its known as an 'English style Jetton' Produced in Nuremberg Germany by Lazarus Gottlieb Lauffer. Master (maker) from 1663 to 1709.

Interestingly your Obverse legend is not in the book, not unusual as there were many types, the most common was the shorter version;
CAROLVS II DEI GRATIA

Yours is;
CAROLVS II DG ANG SCOT E HIB REX

Thanks for taking the time to look this up. I was hoping it might be something other than a jetton, but I'll still take it ....

 

[CRUSADER]

Hi Cru, Is the obverse not R? IACOB II DG etc. for James II?

After research I'm sticking with Charles II. His bust is facing the correct way, & I can't find any jettons like it of James II.

However, I now think I got the wrong maker;

It could be the earlier Cornelius Lauffer (1658-1711), however without all the letters I can't be sure.

There are close matches for him of 'English Style Jettons' (1660-85) with much closer inscriptions but with a footnote that other varieties are in 'Neumann 34201-2: TCR4650.'

So that's as far as I can take it.

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

After research I'm sticking with Charles II. His bust is facing the correct way, & I can't find any jettons like it of James II.

However, I now think I got the wrong maker;

It could be the earlier Cornelius Lauffer (1658-1711), however without all the letters I can't be sure.

There are close matches for him of 'English Style Jettons' (1660-85) with much closer inscriptions but with a footnote that other varieties are in 'Neumann 34201-2: TCR4650.'

So that's as far as I can take it.

I'm confused - how can it be Charles II if the obverse clearly shows "IACOB II"? However, the bust faces right on the jetton, and all the coins I've seen for James II face left. Strange ....

 

[CRUSADER]

I'm confused - how can it be Charles II if the obverse clearly shows "IACOB II"? However, the bust faces right on the jetton, and all the coins I've seen for James II face left. Strange ....

Its odd, I think I now see the IACOB!
But can't find any reference to Jettons of this type, only Charles II that look near identical in every other way!

Maybe other books are needed?? (I've come to a dead end)

 

[RudyT]

Very nice finds!!

 

[Silver Searcher]

It might be a Charles11 loyalist medal ?? Great find what ever it is.

SS

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

Its odd, I think I now see the IACOB!
But can't find any reference to Jettons of this type, only Charles II that look near identical in every other way!

Maybe other books are needed?? (I've come to a dead end)

This may help you see the "IACOB" a little better (click to enlarge). But I'm still confused about the right facing bust.

 

[joeyfresh]

This coronation medal has a similar obverse but the reverse is different plus Bill's find isn't silver
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/...0005/lot-6c4e76fd-383f-4162-a8a6-a479010edea2