Plucked my first seated! Possible counterfeit update??????????

[michigan michael]

Before I left for Gettysburg I decided to take a late night walk and hit the sidewalk that is ripped up and under construction. This has been a tough site with only a couple of Indian heads so far. Lots of junk, nails, siding, electrical, and plumbing. It is impossible to lock down signals. I was at the point of complete frustration with the only recovery being an old pistol musket ball when solid dime signal. I walked away cause it had to be a crew workers can that was crushed and buried. I stopped and decided I was going to dig it. I dug everything else I may as well pull this can out as well.
I could not believe my eyes. A coin with silver peeking through! As I walked to the street light I kept saying, " Please be a seated, please be a seated" I thought for sure it would be a barber which would be cool cause I have not dug one of those either. Standing under the street light I see the beautiful lady setting on her tail holding a shield. Whoo hoo. I ran all the way home!

I feel I still have a lot to learn as a MD er because there really should be a lot more under this side walk. I just cant find em. Oh well, maybe better luck tomorrow. Thanks for looking everyone.

 

[johnnyi]

"Johnny VI, my point is that if the coin was intended for commerce, it would need to be profitable for the manufacturer. If it cost 11 cents to make a dime, than it obviously would be a losing venture. The cost of the eqyuipment and dies would be very high!
Another point is that all of the 19th century counterfiets are crudely manufactured."

Neil, I'm sorry to argue this, but neither point you made is accurate. Here is an example for isntance of an 1880's counterfeit which is not crude, and which demonstrates the existence of finely made ones http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/cf_date/1882_101page.htm Here is another http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/cf_date/1888_101page.htm Again, they exist, they were contemporary, and there was evidently enough profit to be made to risk serious imprisonment.

Again though, I'm not saying definately that this particular coin is counterfeit, only that it appears counterfeit based on the brown high points (not black) , the evidence of mottled plating, the consistency of the browns on the high points, the slight differences in the date (which, should be the weak link in a counterfeit based on a stolen or borrowed master die or fnely made fake die), the reverse die which seems cruder made or more worn than what would be consistent with the front, etc. , That is all, and until someone can produce one of the apparent many examples of a silver coin which show these characturistics I can only go by what I see.

 

[Fr3nchy27]

Hey Johnnyi. I guess I missed that 1882 example. It looks pretty close. If his 1886 is counterfiet, I would guess it would worth something would'nt it? I'm crossing my fingers for you Memorial Magnet! Hope it turns out to be a rare and valuable piece for you.

 

[leslie(nova scotia)]

yo MM

From the land of the Bluenose...that is a classic Yank coin. Congrats on the find sir!

 

[TiredIron]

"Johnny VI, my point is that if the coin was intended for commerce, it would need to be profitable for the manufacturer. If it cost 11 cents to make a dime, than it obviously would be a losing venture. The cost of the eqyuipment and dies would be very high!
Another point is that all of the 19th century counterfiets are crudely manufactured."

Neil, I'm sorry to argue this, but neither point you made is accurate. Here is an example for isntance of an 1880's counterfeit which is not crude, and which demonstrates the existence of finely made ones http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/cf_date/1882_101page.htm Here is another http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/cf_date/1888_101page.htm Again, they exist, they were contemporary, and there was evidently enough profit to be made to risk serious imprisonment.

In addition to all this.....Neil, New Jersey is home to one of the largest and most famous "small denomination" counterfeiters known...."Francis LeRoy Henning". He counterfeited over 100,000 Nickels dated 1881-1882-1883, and most famous his 1944's, so never under estimate peoples reasoning for doing it, or their ability to do it well.

TiredIron

 

[creeper71]

"Johnny VI, my point is that if the coin was intended for commerce, it would need to be profitable for the manufacturer. If it cost 11 cents to make a dime, than it obviously would be a losing venture. The cost of the eqyuipment and dies would be very high!
Another point is that all of the 19th century counterfiets are crudely manufactured."

Neil, I'm sorry to argue this, but neither point you made is accurate. Here is an example for isntance of an 1880's counterfeit which is not crude, and which demonstrates the existence of finely made ones http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/cf_date/1882_101page.htm Here is another http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/cf_date/1888_101page.htm Again, they exist, they were contemporary, and there was evidently enough profit to be made to risk serious imprisonment.

In addition to all this.....Neil, New Jersey is home to one of the largest and most famous "small denomination" counterfeiters known...."Francis LeRoy Henning". He counterfeited over 100,000 Nickels dated 1881-1882-1883, and most famous his 1944's, so never under estimate peoples reasoning for doing it, or their ability to do it well.

TiredIron

it's also rumored he dumped hundreds or even thousands of the war nickels into a river..don't remember the river or the exact story...

 

[spartacus53]

Congrats on that seated. There may be more coins lurking under that sidewalk, get her a mate

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

"Johnny VI, my point is that if the coin was intended for commerce, it would need to be profitable for the manufacturer. If it cost 11 cents to make a dime, than it obviously would be a losing venture. The cost of the eqyuipment and dies would be very high!
Another point is that all of the 19th century counterfiets are crudely manufactured."

Neil, I'm sorry to argue this, but neither point you made is accurate. Here is an example for isntance of an 1880's counterfeit which is not crude, and which demonstrates the existence of finely made ones http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/cf_date/1882_101page.htm Here is another http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/cf_date/1888_101page.htm Again, they exist, they were contemporary, and there was evidently enough profit to be made to risk serious imprisonment.

In addition to all this.....Neil, New Jersey is home to one of the largest and most famous "small denomination" counterfeiters known...."Francis LeRoy Henning". He counterfeited over 100,000 Nickels dated 1881-1882-1883, and most famous his 1944's, so never under estimate peoples reasoning for doing it, or their ability to do it well.

TiredIron

First of all, Johnny...My hat is off to you! I was not aware of these "contemporary counterfeits".

Tired Iron,

Not only am I aware of Francis L. Henning, but I have done a lot of research and have first hand eyewitness accounts of exactly where the 200,000 coins were dumped, (not far from my house). Keep watching the forum for when I discover the 186,000 coins still unaccounted for

 

[creeper71]

"Johnny VI, my point is that if the coin was intended for commerce, it would need to be profitable for the manufacturer. If it cost 11 cents to make a dime, than it obviously would be a losing venture. The cost of the eqyuipment and dies would be very high!
Another point is that all of the 19th century counterfiets are crudely manufactured."

Neil, I'm sorry to argue this, but neither point you made is accurate. Here is an example for isntance of an 1880's counterfeit which is not crude, and which demonstrates the existence of finely made ones http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/cf_date/1882_101page.htm Here is another http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/cf_date/1888_101page.htm Again, they exist, they were contemporary, and there was evidently enough profit to be made to risk serious imprisonment.

In addition to all this.....Neil, New Jersey is home to one of the largest and most famous "small denomination" counterfeiters known...."Francis LeRoy Henning". He counterfeited over 100,000 Nickels dated 1881-1882-1883, and most famous his 1944's, so never under estimate peoples reasoning for doing it, or their ability to do it well.

TiredIron

First of all, Johnny...My hat is off to you! I was not aware of these "contemporary counterfeits".

Tired Iron,

Not only am I aware of Francis L. Henning, but I have done a lot of research and have first hand eyewitness accounts of exactly where the 200,000 coins were dumped, (not far from my house). Keep watching the forum for when I discover the 186,000 coins still unaccounted for

thank you Neil I thought it was 200,000 but wasn't quite sure sounded like to many...lol also I put a link up about the contemporary counterfeits 3rd or 4th post of mine to this thread....

 

[terpfan]

answer to scrubber...No

memorial magnet, here is a scan of a clean 1886 dime. You have better eyes than I have. Reduce your scan and place it along side this one and compare the "6" in 1886. To me they appear completely different, although your's is now quite clear and raised. http://www.coinpage.com/coin-image-3096.html

I agree completely. The "6"s are different the "8"s are completely different. Very clear. If a difference in the dates signifies a counterfeit, then my vote is counterfeit. I also hope its very valuable! Good luck MM.

 

[Skrimpy]

So what is the verdict? I read the whole thread and it doesn't seem as though we have a definitive answer. Counterfeit? Contemporary counterfeit? Real? Don't worry about it being confiscated. They aren't "supposed" to be in circulation any more, and even if you did try to use it, nobody is going to turn you in for trying to pass it off as a real dime, and even if they did, the secret service wouldn't care. It's only a dime and you aren't producing them. You dug it up from underneath the sidewalk.

 

[Newt]

So what is the verdict? I read the whole thread and it doesn't seem as though we have a definitive answer. Counterfeit? Contemporary counterfeit? Real? Don't worry about it being confiscated. They aren't "supposed" to be in circulation any more, and even if you did try to use it, nobody is going to turn you in for trying to pass it off as a real dime, and even if they did, the secret service wouldn't care. It's only a dime and you aren't producing them. You dug it up from underneath the sidewalk.

My 2 cents is on counterfeit. The high spots have rubbed off. Probably worth more too.
Newt

 

[wingmaster]

Congrats on your first seated WTG now on to your next seated.

 

[michigan michael]

It has gotten a little cleaner with the 3 baths it has had.

 

[thrillathahunt]

If the brown/black on the coin were where the plating was wearing off it would not "improve" with cleaning...only get worse. I think further cleaning would remove all of the discoloration.

maybe

 

[Newt]

So what is the verdict? I read the whole thread and it doesn't seem as though we have a definitive answer. Counterfeit? Contemporary counterfeit? Real? Don't worry about it being confiscated. They aren't "supposed" to be in circulation any more, and even if you did try to use it, nobody is going to turn you in for trying to pass it off as a real dime, and even if they did, the secret service wouldn't care. It's only a dime and you aren't producing them. You dug it up from underneath the sidewalk.

My 2 cents is on counterfeit. The high spots have rubbed off. Probably worth more too.
Newt

I take my 2 cents back.
Newt

 

[TiredIron]

From Neil.....
Tired Iron,

Not only am I aware of Francis L. Henning, but I have done a lot of research and have first hand eyewitness accounts of exactly where the 200,000 coins were dumped, (not far from my house). Keep watching the forum for when I discover the 186,000 coins still unaccounted for
[/quote]

OK..... I'm all for pulling off this one. I'm headed over to Neil's house to help search for the funny nickels...

TiredIron

 

[johnnyi]

Memorial Magnet, after seeing the new scan I also have major doubts now that it's counterfeit (it does pay to be non-commital ). You've cleaned the date up well, and even the apparent differences there seem to be gone. We haven't seen the reverse, but I assume that has more the look of the original also? No doubt the rim will clean up as well. I'm sorry because I was rooting for counterfeit, as they are more valuable and there was reason to question it. I wrote Gerry Fortin anyway just to get some input, and I'll post his reply when it arrives.

 

[creeper71]

Memorial Magnet, after seeing the new scan I also have major doubts now that it's counterfeit (it does pay to be non-commital ). You've cleaned the date up well, and even the apparent differences there seem to be gone. We haven't seen the reverse, but I assume that has more the look of the original also? No doubt the rim will clean up as well. I'm sorry because I was rooting for counterfeit, as they are more valuable and there was reason to question it. I wrote Gerry Fortin anyway just to get some input, and I'll post his reply when it arrives.

I was certian it was a counterfeit,especially when you said you had already rubbed the coin with a towel an nothing came off... I was hoping that it was tho for the same reason as Jonnyi... but I was wrong.. it did look like a counterfeit in the first couple of pics tho...

 

[michigan michael]

Thanks everyone! The baking soda, salt and dish soap has confirmed it is not a fake. Its silver. I started out hoping it to be real then hoping it was fake. lol. Cant win em all I guess. lol Thanks for the following on this post. It brought a lot of fun and excitement! HH!

 

[johnnyi]

Hey, thank you magnet, you won either way. I'm grateful too to have not only learned about the wealth of counterfeits out there, but thanks to the urban detectorsits, learned of the effects of concrete on silver!