Police send unpleasant email

[Rasputin]

Okay, everyone turn in their banner finds to the local police station. If they haven't been claimed after ninety days...

 

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[BuckleBoy]

LOOK....Is permission the right thing to ask for? ABSOLUTELY. In 10 yrs. in this hobby I have asked for permission no less than 25 times. I was refused once.

Funny. I have asked permission close to 200 times in the past two years alone.


And I have been turned down before because owners have seen people with detectors on their property without their permission. In some areas, the Hunters give us a bad name--because they don't ask either, and when we ask we get turned down because THEY think they can go on whoever's property they wish to fire their gun!



Mark, I want to thank you for joining this discussion. I respect your experience with legal issues and detecting, as well as your long history of publishing articles.

 

[hogge]

Everyones situation is different. I live in a highly rural area, with thousands and thousands of acres of forest and woodlands. Most of the small towns where I live have less than 1000 people in the entire town. If I walk a mile or so up into the woods, and see no posted signs, do you think I have to ask permission from a passing deer to metal detect? The reason I've only asked 25 times for permission is I don't detect on only but a few older 1700's era private homes. Metal detecting in my area, is not a big hobby. Even though our area is rich in late 1600 and 1700's history. Mark S. wouldn't happen to be Mark Sportack from Pa. would it?

 

[Mark S.]

We are talking about intentional tresspass. This is very different from someone simply traversing land or taking photos. Someone who is knowingly and intentionally entering property without permission and remaining there for specific purposes which involve digging and removing items that legally belong to the owner. This is a whole different scenario. You are now getting into property damage and theft. I would bet that when it is all added together it would become criminal tresspass, property damage and theft.

Why take the chance? Why do something that you know is not right? Why not just ask permission and not have to look over your shoulder? Why take the chance of giving the hobby and yourself a bad name? I guarentee you that if someone did this in my area that all the neighbors would know about it real quick. What do you suppose their reply would be to the next guy that comes along and does the proper thing and asks permission?

My big question is why this even needs to be discussed? IT IS AN ILLEGAL ACT. You can split all the hairs you want. It is morally ethically and legally wrong.

There are alot of sites in my area that I have marked to search. All on private property. I know, am acquainted with or related to many of them. I will not set foot on their property without their expressed permission for metal detecting. That is not goody two shoes that is just common sense, respect and the proper thing to do.

 

[hogge]

We are talking about intentional tresspass. This is very different from someone simply traversing land or taking photos. Someone who is knowingly and intentionally entering property without permission and remaining there for specific purposes which involve digging and removing items that legally belong to the owner. This is a whole different scenario. You are now getting into property damage and theft. I would bet that when it is all added together it would become criminal tresspass, property damage and theft.

Why take the chance? Why do something that you know is not right? Why not just ask permission and not have to look over your shoulder? Why take the chance of giving the hobby and yourself a bad name? I guarentee you that if someone did this in my area that all the neighbors would know about it real quick. What do you suppose their reply would be to the next guy that comes along and does the proper thing and asks permission?

My big question is why this even needs to be discussed? IT IS AN ILLEGAL ACT. You can split all the hairs you want. It is morally ethically and legally wrong.

There are alot of sites in my area that I have marked to search. All on private property. I know, am acquainted with or related to many of them. I will not set foot on their property without their expressed permission for metal detecting. That is not goody two shoes that is just common sense, respect and the proper thing to do.

Going by this way of thinking....Every park, although considered "publc land", may IN FACT, be off limits to metal detectorists. Look at your towns laws and bylaws people, you may be giving this "Hobby" a black eye if you get caught. Also, being on public land, constitutes that ALL jewelry found HAS TO BE TURNED INTO THE POLICE DEPT., because this constitutes the "Right Thing to DO"! MORALLY, LEGALLY, and ETHICALLY. You are entering property to extract coins and jewelry that are NOT yours, and are, IN FACT, someone elses lost property. These items, being on PUBLIC TOWN, or CITY OWNED LAND, can actually be the property of said city or town. Or are you just fooling yourself by thinking it's public land and it's my right to detect here by being a taxpayer in this city or town? If you want to split hairs and be technical. Now..... Read the general laws in your own state(s), and see what is written about finding lost and found property and livestock and what your obligations are on finding such property. Or doesn't your self righteous conscience think these laws apply to YOU. Better yet, if your that concerned about the landowners rights, and his property, turn over everything you find to them. Afterall, it's HIS land and relics. ( This is the answer I'm going to get from this post)>>>> "I ALWAYS give the landowner the opportunity to take ALL that I have found. Because that's how I am, and I am not interested in the money or relics at all! Afterall, it's just a hobby to me" "As regards to hunting parks I ALWAYS check every bylaw, and consult my town officials to ensure metal detecting is allowed." I think I'm gonna be sick!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hogge, Mark's got a point: "follow all laws to their umpteenth technical degree. Afterall, you don't want to be 'looking over your shoulder', breaking laws, etc..., right?"

But I see your anguish in that "technical" answer. And that is, that if ANY of us md'rs thinks about it long enough, and asks enough questions far enough up the public ladders, you can ALWAYS find someone to tell you "no". And if you get a yes, you simply didn't go far enough up the ladder, and didn't ask with the right key words and mental images. ("digging" and "holes", ARPA, capitilizing off other's mis-fortunes, lost & found laws, utilities and sprinkler lines", etc...)

 

[hogge]

Yes he does...And I see his point. I just like to argue, and give a discending opinion. But I also have a point. If you follow the General Laws put forth by each state, You are not only obligated to turn in your finds, it basically says you HAVE TO turn them in to the proper authorities. Wait 90 days , to see if they are claimed. And if they are of high dollar value, pay a "Finders Fee" to claim such an item after the 90 days has elapsed. It differs from state to state but I think it's pretty much black and white. I'm not doing anything wrong hunting land, DEEP in the woods, that's unposted. Neither are 1/2 the people who treasure hunt or metal detect. And I resent the fact a couple of "holier than thou" think we are. You did the right thing by posting an item to try and find the rightful owner, but I still don't think the officers meant any harm or malice intent by her response. But I'm not going to sit back and have someone make dissending comments about where and how I hunt. Saying that guys are finding Banner Finds that aren't "Legal" because they were miles in the woods into an old settlement long lost. It's pretty much jealousy. I'm really not interested whether someone found a great find on public or unposted land, as long as THEY found it, a hearty CONGRATS to them!

 

[lostcauses]

Ah the reason the fed and most states have law enforcement looking to bust relic hunters.

"I'm not doing anything wrong hunting land, DEEP in the woods, that's unposted. Neither are 1/2 the people who treasure hunt or metal detect."

Unless you have permission to be on that property you are a LOOTER. Plain simple no other term for it! Archeologist and law enforcement agree with each other on that. Are you on federal property, state property, county property, or personal property?
Do you even care??
-------------------------

I can not even believe some one would post this on the board! ?

"Everyones situation is different. I live in a highly rural area, with thousands and thousands of acres of forest and woodlands. Most of the small towns where I live have less than 1000 people in the entire town. If I walk a mile or so up into the woods, and see no posted signs, do you think I have to ask permission from a passing deer to metal detect? The reason I've only asked 25 times for permission is I don't detect on only but a few older 1700's era private homes. Metal detecting in my area, is not a big hobby. Even though our area is rich in late 1600 and 1700's history. Mark S. wouldn't happen to be Mark Sportack from Pa. would it?"

And then
"Yes he does...And I see his point. I just like to argue, and give a discending opinion. But I also have a point. If you follow the General Laws put forth by each state, You are not only obligated to turn in your finds, it basically says you HAVE TO turn them in to the proper authorities. Wait 90 days , to see if they are claimed. And if they are of high dollar value, pay a "Finders Fee" to claim such an item after the 90 days has elapsed. It differs from state to state but I think it's pretty much black and white. I'm not doing anything wrong hunting land, DEEP in the woods, that's unposted. Neither are 1/2 the people who treasure hunt or metal detect. And I resent the fact a couple of "holier than thou" think we are. You did the right thing by posting an item to try and find the rightful owner, but I still don't think the officers meant any harm or malice intent by her response. But I'm not going to sit back and have someone make dissending comments about where and how I hunt. Saying that guys are finding Banner Finds that aren't "Legal" because they were miles in the woods into an old settlement long lost. It's pretty much jealousy. tongue3 I'm really not interested whether someone found a great find on public or posted land, as long as THEY found it, a hearty CONGRATS to them!


Are you for or against metal detecting?

 

[hogge]

"LostCauses".... By the way....Perfect Name. Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing isn't it? I Agree with Treasure Hunter. Stop Preaching to everyone as to what they should or shouldn't be doing. I believe alot of people that are trying to preserve detectorists rights, by digging up restrictions and laws, and bringing the spotlight on us, quite frankly, may be doing more harm than good. In turn they invite new laws and restrictions otherwise not known to the town leaders, by actually confronting them with issues. Maybe we should all stay low key, out of the limelight, and keep our mouths shut. I did make 1 mistake on my last post...it should be "UNPOSTED LAND"....Sorry. I changed it...other than that

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Yes he does...And I see his point. I just like to argue, and give a discending opinion. But I also have a point. If you follow the General Laws put forth by each state, You are not only obligated to turn in your finds, it basically says you HAVE TO turn them in to the proper authorities. Wait 90 days , to see if they are claimed. And if they are of high dollar value, pay a "Finders Fee" to claim such an item after the 90 days has elapsed. It differs from state to state but I think it's pretty much black and white. I'm not doing anything wrong hunting land, DEEP in the woods, that's unposted. Neither are 1/2 the people who treasure hunt or metal detect. And I resent the fact a couple of "holier than thou" think we are. You did the right thing by posting an item to try and find the rightful owner, but I still don't think the officers meant any harm or malice intent by her response. But I'm not going to sit back and have someone make dissending comments about where and how I hunt. Saying that guys are finding Banner Finds that aren't "Legal" because they were miles in the woods into an old settlement long lost. It's pretty much jealousy. I'm really not interested whether someone found a great find on public or posted land, as long as THEY found it, a hearty CONGRATS to them!

Hoggie,

I support you 100%. Some would rather it stay in the ground and be lost forever. Florida changed the law here on indian artifacts, now if you pick up a point that is on any government land and not on private property it is illegal. It's okay if the artifact is washed away in a river and lost forever, just don't pick it up and preserve it.

To protect the ones I found legally in Missouri, I do not hunt indian artifacts in Florida.

Ignore anyone who thinks they are a self elected overseer of your finds, one of the best features Mark has put on this site is the "ignore user" option..............

 

[lostcauses]

The stuff wrote in this thread is the why in Florida, Treasure_Hunter.
To ignore property and permission. And folks say it is OK to go to that property and take items you do not own. ROTFLOL

You folks have proved, the relic hunter is their own worst enemy.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Yes he does...And I see his point. I just like to argue, and give a discending opinion. But I also have a point. If you follow the General Laws put forth by each state, You are not only obligated to turn in your finds, it basically says you HAVE TO turn them in to the proper authorities.

That's great hogge, but Mark's reply was not about the legal in's and out's of this--it was a response to the fact that you Trespass on PRIVATE property for the purpose of metal detecting WITHOUT PERMISSION!

 

[hogge]

The stuff wrote in this thread is the why in Florida, Treasure_Hunter.
To ignore property and permission. And folks say it is OK to go to that property and take items you do not own. ROTFLOL

You folks have proved, the relic hunter is their own worst enemy.

NO.... You folks, that are the self professed "saviors" of our hobby, are our worst enemy. You invite restrictions by running your mouths to say you are "The great protectors". Your heart is in the right place......but your head is up....well.....somewhere else!

 

[hogge]

Yes he does...And I see his point. I just like to argue, and give a discending opinion. But I also have a point. If you follow the General Laws put forth by each state, You are not only obligated to turn in your finds, it basically says you HAVE TO turn them in to the proper authorities.

That's great hogge, but Mark's reply was not about the legal in's and out's of this--it was a response to the fact that you Trespass on PRIVATE property for the purpose of metal detecting WITHOUT PERMISSION!

Just because you get permission to hunt property, doesn't mean you ACTUALLY OWN what you dig either! If you believe that, your only fooling yourself to justify your position.

 

[lostcauses]

No kidding. One sould always remeber such. Aggain juts because you find some thing does not mean you own it. Yet private property can be better protected due to the owner ship laws. Of course a contract of disposition of found items with permission is also advisable. Let a land owner know you found a $10,000 item and see were it will all go. Find a major treasure and every one that can come up with a reason to claim it will. A trove can be a difficult thing even with a viable contract.

Yes, just as on public property, lost items do not instantly fall to the owner as title to said item. Yes ,private property has it own set of problems.

Yet to go on some ones property with intent to take items you find from that property with out permission, You are hung out to dry if caught. You will have no rights to the items you stole from that property at all. Simply put you are looting (stealing). This includes, if it is not posted for "no trespassing". Once you remove with out permission, property; from a non posted private property, it is theft, buried or not.

Yes he does...And I see his point. I just like to argue, and give a discending opinion. But I also have a point. If you follow the General Laws put forth by each state, You are not only obligated to turn in your finds, it basically says you HAVE TO turn them in to the proper authorities.

That's great hogge, but Mark's reply was not about the legal in's and out's of this--it was a response to the fact that you Trespass on PRIVATE property for the purpose of metal detecting WITHOUT PERMISSION!

Just because you get permission to hunt property, doesn't mean you ACTUALLY OWN what you dig either! If you believe that, your only fooling yourself to justify your position.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Lost causes, you say:

"Of course a contract of disposition of found items with permission is also advisable. Let a land owner know you found a $10,000 item and see were it will all go."

This may be true. I mean, if a plumber finds $10,000 hidden behind a sink, that a previous house owner hid, who does the $10,000 belong to? Obviously the plumber can not claim "finders keepers" in the eyes of the law, right? So I would think it would be the same thing if a guy finds a $10,000 diamond ring while detecting a person's front yard with permission. If he opens his mouth and says "oh wow, look at this big diamond ring I just found", that the owner can say "give it to me".

The only problem with trying to have property owners sign papers prior to a search of their property, is that is the FASTEST way to get a "no". No one likes to sign contracts, especially with total strangers. Better just to go with a hand-shake, and small talk like "wheat pennies and old buttons"

On another note, can you imagine going in to a police station, or city hall, wherever you live, and holding out a valuable coin (a 1901 s quarter for instance), and telling them "I just found this in the park. It's worth $5k. Am I allowed to keep this item found on city property please?" What do you think they would say?

 

[lostcauses]

"On another note, can you imagine going in to a police station, or city hall, wherever you live, and holding out a valuable coin (a 1901 s quarter for instance), and telling them "I just found this in the park. It's worth $5k. Am I allowed to keep this item found on city property please?" What do you think they would say?"
NO WAY in the politically correct terms. LOL I suspect if permits were issued it would still be a problem.

Yep treasure hunter seem to think they can take what they find and keep it, yet it all cases complications can exist.
I could go though this board and show such posts that would be classic examples of what are situations that could turn into problems.
I have seen posted out right examples of law violations. I have seen posts of the example you posted about public lands, and value of the items.

TH'ing is not the easiest thing to do correctly. The ignorance and disregard of others is a prevalent problem.
As for private property if you don't at least ask about keeping what you find, it is such they have not given permission to keep the items.
Usually not a problem, but let em see a valuable item, and it might get that way fast. I let em have what they want any way. I prefer to work with an owner of the property, (puplic or private); than against them. LOL

The work with them I think is the difference in the methods talked about with all of this, even public land.

When I hear It is not posted public or private, and so they can do it, what can I say... Folks will do what they do.

 

[Ant]

I think some folks/members joined just to get ammo to get Metal Detecting outlawed. Heck, because of them I stoped posting my finds here.


HH to all and good luck:
Tony

 

[Seamuss]

Police are those in your face type of investigators. I don't doubt that some of them have computer skills or the time to use them, but they would rather be in your face with comments to get your direct reaction to what every they say. What ever their statement to you would be(positive or negative), they want to know that you understand them perfectly. Then they will send you an email as to the results of the conversation.

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

I found a ring a few years ago with "No. 9" on it. It was a few doors down from the Number 9 fire station so I called them to see if one of their own lost a ring. The person who answered the phone said he was not aware of any fireman losing a ring, but I should drop it off. I politely told him that the fire station was more than 100 years old and it could have been anyone. I left my number with him, and told him if anyone is looking for a ring to contact me. That was 4 years ago and I have never heard from them.

Police officers have a lot of perks we don't know about. My dad was in law enforcement and we always had the best fireworks on the fourth of July, and there was plenty of free beer. These were just some of the things which were confiscated or unclaimed.

Politely tell the police department that you would be glad to help them find any lost articles, and leave them your number so that they (or the person who lost the item) may contact you.