Police send unpleasant email

[lostcauses]

Treasure_Hunter
You say:"I do not remember voting for anyone to be the overseer of my finds ........."

Do you ignore all laws made before you were born then

Florida lost and found laws
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,263595.0.html

Ah the child that sais: I found it I found it it is mine..... LOL Folks trying to tell me what to do with my FIND. Its my precious, mine I tell you.
Humor folks. That is what it is all about. LOL

A lot of this does have one thing good about it. Seems a lot of folks were not aware of such laws. What they individually do with such laws is there problem.
Just remember that law can be your friend if it is used correctly. A clear title to an item can be yours: if the right thing is done.

Yet then again statement from such as this board could easily be used to shut down areas on public property to MD'ing.

Them Md'er folks are stealing stuff other folks lost against the law.

Ahh the Md'er is there own worst enemy, yet that can be said about all of treasurer hunters.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Lost-causes, I spoke to my company's lawyer (who is on retainer so I can pop occasional questions to him). I posed the question of found-jewelry, as in the case of a city beach or park. My question was couched in terms of the email I had received from this lady, that happened to be at a city beach. He quoted the exact law you quoted on the T'net CA forum (the legal sub-section): Calif. Civil Code #2080, etc.... In that, it talks about either a $100 value, or $250 value. (There is variations in duty for each starting value.) When I asked him "how does a person determine value? Is it scrap value? value when new?" etc... He said that he assumed it would be the scrap (melt) value, or value on the used market (like an Ebay price, etc...). You can see that that is VERY up to personal whim. Trying to pin him down on that, he admitted not knowing how value would be determined, other than to just take stuff to the police "if in doubt"

Next I asked him about something like a set of car keys with have ZERO intrinsic value. They would ONLY have value to the owner (who's probably really p*ssed and might have to get lock-smiths, and other expensive measures). The lawyer said that the keys would have no value, and therefore the finder would have no obligation to turn them in! Interesting, eh? Heck, even an electronic hand-held organizer (which wouldn't be unusual to find on dry sand beaches, still working and fresh!) would presumably have a value of less than $250 used, but you can BET that the person who lost it is having kittens because maybe he/she has a lot of personal info stored in there, has to re-subscribe to their service, change #'s, etc...

Lastly he said that the CA lost & found laws would trump any other lesser (city and county) laws/rules. When it comes to values or whatever, CA law would be the deciding factor. Or perhaps he meant that if there is a discrepancy, the stricter statute would prevail. I didn't ask about lost & found on federal properties.

So this is all very strange, if someone wanted to get downright technical, eh? I still haven't talked the lady officer who sent me the email yet, as I haven't had business in that city yet. Am planning on going tomorrow, so will report back what she says about some hypotheticals. Ie.: keys, verses glasses, verses jewelry of different values, verses what's suggested verses what's law, etc... Naturally I won't let on that I might have found such things, but just ........ hypotheticals for discussion sakes.

Of course, I doubt any of this would change anyone's personal detecting practices. But it is strange, when you think of the endless lists of "finds" forums (especially beach forums) of persons who openly post, and think nothing of it. Yet if someone posted "I hopped a fence into a historic monument", he'd be tarred and feathered by the md'ing community.

 

[lostcauses]

Tom_in_CA Thanks for doing all of this. It is a learning experience for all, including me.


He said that he assumed it would be the scrap (melt) value, or value on the used market (like an Ebay price, etc...).

Such used is usually replacement value, or what the item would cost to replace. Strange stuff to be sure. I am surprised he did not know which one would be used. Well probably not his area. LOL I can not be sure myself. Never really had to deal with that part.
Usulay they will take what ever might have value and then go with it, of course you get it back if not claimed.

Again thanks for the info.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Treasure_Hunter
You say:"I do not remember voting for anyone to be the overseer of my finds ........."

Do you ignore all laws made before you were born then

Florida lost and found laws
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,263595.0.html

Ah the child that sais: I found it I found it it is mine..... LOL Folks trying to tell me what to do with my FIND. Its my precious, mine I tell you.
Humor folks. That is what it is all about. LOL

A lot of this does have one thing good about it. Seems a lot of folks were not aware of such laws. What they individually do with such laws is there problem.
Just remember that law can be your friend if it is used correctly. A clear title to an item can be yours: if the right thing is done.

Yet then again statement from such as this board could easily be used to shut down areas on public property to MD'ing.

Them Md'er folks are stealing stuff other folks lost against the law.

Ahh the Md'er is there own worst enemy, yet that can be said about all of treasurer hunters.

Lostcause, I ask you the same question I asked BB, have you ever knowingly and intentionally exceded the speed limit, it is after all a law. Since we both already know the answer, do you pick and choose which laws you obey, or just preach about obeying certain ones?

Now just where and what year did you graduate from law school since you seem to think it is your cause to dictate to others what they can and can't do, keep and can't keep.

You want to preach to me, come back when your my age..................

 

[BuckleBoy]

Over 90% of my finds are at the beach, usually under 8 inches or more of sand and usually knee deep or deeper in the water.

Humm, your asking do I turn in my finds, pay for the police department to run ad in local newspapers and wait to see if someone claims them, of which if someone comes forth the ring they claim may not even be the actual physical ring they lost, only look like it......NO ....I have returned finds I found when someone asked me to look for item, even though they were over a hundred yards away when I found the item, and returned finds when they came up and described item with out seeing it in my pouch.

So tell me BB, have you ever knowingly exceeded the speed limit? If so then you intentionally and on purpose ignored and broke the law, which is punishable by fines, points on your license and possible court appearance, as well as you endangered the life of every person that was on the road with you at that time.

If you ever exceeded the speed limit with a detector in your vehicle then you were also giving this hobby a bad name.................If we use your reasoning.

I am 60 years old, a Vietnam Vet, been under hostile fire, voted in every major election since I turned 21, pay my taxes, paid to see both my kids have a good college education, worked since I was 13 years old, do not hunt private land with out permission, cover up every hole I dig, even at the beach and in the water, and last, but most importantly of all....
I do not remember voting for anyone to be the overseer of my finds .........

It seems a few want to self appoint and dictate to the rest of us what they should and should not do with their finds, if they should keep them or sell them, and if others disagree, then they are "bad apples" and are guilty of all sorts of evil stuff...................

Your scenario about speeding with a detector does nothing to invalidate my argument, because that isn't a part of my argument. Nor is illegally copying a DVD while a detector was present in the room. Stealing from a convenience store while thinking about metal detecting probably has nothing to do with our PR either. Basically, if you can't see that where you use your detector, whether you use it legally or illegally, and who you piss off while detecting can look either favorably or unfavorably on all of us, then I don't know how else to explain it to you.

To get back on track, we are responding to Tom's letter... I wonder if the comment about "misappropriation of found property" is her way of reminding Tom to look out for his own good. If the law in question were ever enforced, then Tom would not actually legally own any of his finds over $250 in value that weren't turned in for the 90 day period specified in California law, and he would lose the finds. You see, I'm not appointing anyone for anything--that's where you misunderstand me. I'm commenting on what I see in print on up in the replies in this post. It's there in the California Civil Code #2080 in black and white. And to be honest with you, it is a scary law.

Maybe not that scary in terms of it ever getting enforced...but let's say Tom were an artifact collector too, and were busted for "removing artifacts" from state land. You can bet your bippy that when the search and seizure process began, they could confiscate his jewelry collection as well under this law--even though it was all less than 50 years old.

I hope I explained it a little better this time around. Sorry for the confusion.




-Buckles

 

[Xraywolf]

Thats crap, I would put her email in the spam filter if I was you.
You need a cop, you know the number - I would not appreciate unsolicited advice like that.
If she wants to find stuff to return to owners, theres nothing stopping her from detecting in her spare time.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I obey the law, and I EXPECT others to do the same--especially when they represent My hobby since they detect as well.


Buckles

BB, since you are adamant about obeying laws, I noticed you never answered my question on speeding? You say "I obey the law" , do you pick which laws you obey?

Since you "obey the law", your saying you have never intentionally exceeded the speed limit, which is after all a law, endangers those around you, is punishable by fines, points on your license, and potential jail?

When is the last time you read anywhere where a detectorist was fined, received points on their license, and or jailed for not turning in a ring, or a watch, or a earring, or a necklace they found on public land, buried under 8-12+ inches of sand, in 4 feet of ocean water and in my case most times at least 2 to 3 feet of surf ?

 

[BuckleBoy]

I obey the law, and I EXPECT others to do the same--especially when they represent My hobby since they detect as well.


Buckles

BB, since you are adamant about obeying laws, I noticed you never answered my question on speeding? You say "I obey the law" , do you pick which laws you obey?

Since you "obey the law", your saying you have never intentionally exceeded the speed limit, which is after all a law, endangers those around you, is punishable by fines, points on your license, and potential jail?

When is the last time you read anywhere where a detectorist was fined, received points on their license, and or jailed for not turning in a ring, or a watch, or a earring, or a necklace they found on public land, buried under 8-12+ inches of sand, in 4 feet of ocean water and in my case most times at least 2 to 3 feet of surf ?

I obey ALL laws concerning metal detecting! This thread is not about breaking the speed limit.

 

[blurr]

I am getting a really uneasy feeling about the metal detecting community. If you out there don't think it right to turn something over to the police that has been obviously lost, I don't know about this site. Keeping found coinage, and common jewlry found underground I have no problem with. I have a huge problem with those of you who are so paranoid of the authorities, that you would take any comment by them as an afront to your hobby. That is complete B/S. What part of doing the right thing don't some of you understand? Going through life with the idea that the police are your enemy is a really uneducated way to live. I'm pretty sure I'm done here now. Take care everyone.

John

 

[Xraywolf]

I am getting a really uneasy feeling about the metal detecting community. If you out there don't think it right to turn something over to the police that has been obviously lost, I don't know about this site. Keeping found coinage, and common jewlry found underground I have no problem with. I have a huge problem with those of you who are so paranoid of the authorities, that you would take any comment by them as an afront to your hobby. That is complete B/S. What part of doing the right thing don't some of you understand? Going through life with the idea that the police are your enemy is a really uneducated way to live. I'm pretty sure I'm done here now. Take care everyone.

John

Lead by example John, post a list of all the stuff you've turned over to the cops for the betterment of humanity.
Maybe that'll inspire me to do the same - Until then, what is identifiable, an attempt will be made to find the owner, and what is not, will not.

 

[blurr]

This will be my last post. The other day at the mall I found a blackberry cellphone sitting on an empty bench. I have no idea what it was worth, but IT WASN'T MINE. I turned it in to the lost and found at the mall. I don't fault anyone here for keeping gold rings, necklaces, and whatever else you dig. My uneasiness comes when some talk about keeping things that they "eyeball" while detecting that are obviously lost items. I guess to each his own. Blast me all you want, I am done with this. Again, it should come as no surprise to anyone why detecting is getting banned from more and more locales.

John

 

[Xraywolf]

This will be my last post. The other day at the mall I found a blackberry cellphone sitting on an empty bench. I have no idea what it was worth, but IT WASN'T MINE. I turned it in to the lost and found at the mall. I don't fault anyone here for keeping gold rings, necklaces, and whatever else you dig. My uneasiness comes when some talk about keeping things that they "eyeball" while detecting that are obviously lost items. I guess to each his own. Blast me all you want, I am done with this. Again, it should come as no surprise to anyone why detecting is getting banned from more and more locales.

John

You are comparing apples n oranges, blurr.
I have turned in at least a half a dozen cell phones, one I dug up at the beach and it still worked, I called the owner on it.
Met him at a gas station, he wanted to give me $50, I refused, but he insisted I take $20 in gas.
These are very easy identifiable items, assuming that they still function.
A lost purse/wallet with ID, another obvious example.
A gold ring, which might have been in the ground for a week, months or 50 years, unless it is inscribed, it is impossible to verify who lost it.
Were it not for the metal detector that found it, there it would remain, in the ground, for eternity.
Is that really the way you want it ?

As far as "keeping things that they eyeball while detecting", that is a new factor, and the 1st I have heard of it mentioned here.
When making accusations, you should direct quote, not summarize.
Some things, like a golf ball in a field or an orphan basketball at a playground, can be considered abandoned and thus subject to being owned by the 1st person who comes along and picks it up.
Some things, like a baby stroller or bike sitting there with no one around, no of course not, that is someones property and they will likely return for it.
Careless to leave it laying around, to be sure - But still gives no one the right to snatch it up as their own.

Gotta be careful about moralizing to folks you don't know.
I have been in the construction trade for 15 years, a union carpenter, and have been on countless jobs, both industrial and residential.
The opportunities to unjustly enrich yourself in the trades are legion, I in fact have known guys who have their garages full of stuff they have scammed on jobs.
I have never taken a single thing, I realized from the beginning that I have to look at other peoples tools ect as if they are not there, I have not and will not ever consider taking something on the job, whether its worth $5 or $5,000.
I tend to have that attitude on the job and off, so I do resent your generalized implications and ill considered comparisons.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Treasure hunter, the speeding thing (yes we all do it, or have done it, etc..) has no bearing on the discussion. The fact that there will inevitably be "fudging", doesn't justify other things. Each one stands on its own merits, IMHO. Because to think otherwise, that simply because we fudge in one area, means that therefore no other law needs to have preachers harping, would be like saying "I might as well shoplift too. Afterall, I broke the speed limit yesterday, so what's the difference? A law is a law, right?" It just doesn't work like that.

So yes, we all pick and choose which laws are higher priority than others. Hopefully we all have the common sense to see the difference between shop-lifting and going a mile per hour over the speed limit

BTW, did you know it's against the law to spit on sidewalks in New York? Something left over from the days of spitoons, that is still on the books (or so I've heard )

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Blurr,

Before you leave the discussion, I don't think most md-ers think of finding a cell-phone on a bench as "treasure". I believe what most are referring to is the ring or the watch or the earring on the beach, or the silver dime or quarter - with no identifying factors.

I'm pretty sure if I found a ring on the beach and there was a "lost" ad in the paper that matched it or had a good chance to match, most of us would call that number.

B

 

[blurr]

Blurr,

Before you leave the discussion, I don't think most md-ers think of finding a cell-phone on a bench as "treasure". I believe what most are referring to is the ring or the watch or the earring on the beach, or the silver dime or quarter - with no identifying factors.

I'm pretty sure if I found a ring on the beach and there was a "lost" ad in the paper that matched it or had a good chance to match, most of us would call that number.

B

I said the same thing. I am really talking about for instance a wedding band found on the ground. A nice watch found on the ground. Things that have obviously been lost, and lost recently. I don't think, nor would anyone else in my view think, that a pocket watch found 5 inches below ground would be something that should be turned in. I have my opinion on this, and it is my last here. Take care Beth.

John

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

The argument or disagree here is not about items found laying on, benches, seawalls, or found on the surface of the ground.

The disagreement here is that a few seem to want to get on a soap box and preach that anyone who doesn't turn in a ring or some other piece of jewelry that they find buried in the ground is violating some terrible law, and is in a major violation of metal detecting etiquette and or rules, and are destroying this hobby……BS.

Someone can't preach to people, especially to me, that we are destroying this hobby because some members chose to keep the finds they dig, rather then turn them in to some police department or offical somewhere, pay to have the police store them and run an ad for 30 days, hope the item doesn't disappear before the rightful owner or the end of the waiting period comes, just to get back what they found buried under 8 inches or more of sand, and or in 4 foot of ocean water and been lost most likely for several years or more.

What someone chooses to do with the items they dig up on public land, or private land with the owner's permission is their own business, and should not be subject to someone preaching they are ruining this hobby..

You want to get on a soap box, what hurts this hobby more and will cause more banning and restriction then anything else in my opinion is.....

The total disregard of the area you are digging, leaving holes uncovered, leaving the trash you dig laying on the ground.

Tearing up the sod, cutting 4 sided plugs, unless you return to water them later on the majority will brown and many will die. Three sided plugs, while being a lot better, many times they will brown and some die if not watered. ( I rare if ever ever dig a plug, most times I have no need to, I can dig and recover most item using my Ez-Dig-R and Detectorpro Uniprobe and leave it so there is no sign I was ever there and no dead sod or grass).

Hunting private property with out owners permission.

Hunting sacred areas like cemetery's, historical sites with out permission, and State and National Parks.


The above will do 1000 times more damage to this hobby then someone not turning in a ring they dug up 6+ inches in the dirt or 8-14+ inches in sand, and in 3-5 feet of water.

BB, on your first major find, the Civil War buckle, which is by the way, a really super nice find , did you have permission from the church to hunt there, church property is private property….


Now in the spirit of compromise, the next time I find a uniform police officer standing beside me in 4 feet of ocean water, and 2-3 foot swells, I will ask him what he wants me to do with a ring if I find one.

 

[Xraywolf]

Can the positions be summarized here ?
Is there actually someone here claiming that anything remotely valuable found via metal detecting should be turned over to law enforcement ?

 

[lostcauses]

"none of your business what anyone else does with the finds they dig up"
It is the laws. LOL
Do you really thinK I can tell you what to do??
Does that LAW bother you??
-----------------------------------------
Do you see me on every valuable find post going did you turn it in to the police??
I don't see any one else doing it .
No this mess has been limited for a very good reason. I see no reason to damage the board with such stupidity. Yet when I hear parks and other public places getting closed to MD'ing well you can bet such as this law is a good part of it. Folks are complaining that the MD'ing is getting shut down on public places. It is becoming a problem.

Posts that say I wont do this or that even if it is law, provide a great view for any politician (or state, or city archeologist) that might stumble across such a board.

And the end result of such knowledge is simple. It can provide a clear title to a valuable item. Every MD'er should know that part.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Awwww, thats better.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Can the positions be summarized here ?
Is there actually someone here claiming that anything remotely valuable found via metal detecting should be turned over to law enforcement ?

Really simple, what you do with the finds you dig up in the ground and in the water is your business, and NO ONE ELSES.