Question for all Beale Cipher Enthusiasts

[souce19]

What would it take for you to consider a different location other than Bedford County, VA? This is more of a poll. I am curious. Since this is my thread, I will say that for me, I believe the Bedford county location was chosen for a specific reason and it has more to do with misdirection than “hey yall! I buried it here!”. Thoughts?

 

[Carl-NC]

For me, it would take some actual evidence to consider either Bedford County, or anywhere other than Bedford County. The history and research that's been done over the years so strongly points to 'hoax' that it's tough to take anything else seriously. More evidence-free theories aren't gonna change that.

 

[souce19]

Agreed. I find too much reliance on AI and not enough primary source documentation for the majority of “solves”. To your point, I believe it was a hoax or, as I am Currently hypothesizing, it was a convenient cover story for illegal Santa Fe Trade that was likely buried elsewhere. With the caveat of cipher 3 being necessary for an heir to find and claim the cache under the guise of “found treasure” vs illegal trade profits. This was also at the time of bank failures and Andrew Jackson’s pivot from cash to hard currency. Side note, I always felt like the Beale Letter read like a legal document. Lots of legal terminology. Not the typical language of an “adventurer”.

 

[Lestrada]

I think hoax is too strong a word but i believe B1 and B3 are not decodable and that the treasure is a fiction.

i think it was a sort of tribute to Robert Morriss, whose epitaph takes up a goodly portion of the papers.
Then when it was released, something happened and the_writer recalled all unsold copies.

There are supposedly grammatically, cryptologically valid solutions and i would still like to find one or lesserly to see one.

 

[souce19]

Interesting! I’ll have to look into that.

 

[chalkoutline]

If you believe the treasure is real then you must accept that the story is real...after all, it's the story that convinced you the treasure is real enough to pursue it.

So what does the story tell us...
1. TB party wanted to make sure their heirs got the treasure in the event they didn't make it back.
2. TB wanted to use an encryption method to protect the secret location of the treasure while they are live yet easy to decode in the event of their death.
3. The "Key" left with the colleague in St Louis did not need the same protection as the cipher numbers; thus, they were kept in an envelope.
4. Being the more important of the two, the encrypted message was put into a locked box.
5. The TB party discussed who could be trusted to guard the box and if necessary, locate and distribute the treasure to the heirs. Ultimately chose Robert Morriss.
6. Robert Morriss, hotel operator, had to be able decode the encrypted message. Based of the three sets of cipher numbers, TB chose a simple book cipher.

There is no reason to change the story or use a different encryption method UNLESS you cannot solve the ciphers.

 

[souce19]

If you believe the treasure is real then you must accept that the story is real...after all, it's the story that convinced you the treasure is real enough to pursue it.

So what does the story tell us...
1. TB party wanted to make sure their heirs got the treasure in the event they didn't make it back.
2. TB wanted to use an encryption method to protect the secret location of the treasure while they are live yet easy to decode in the event of their death.
3. The "Key" left with the colleague in St Louis did not need the same protection as the cipher numbers; thus, they were kept in an envelope.
4. Being the more important of the two, the encrypted message was put into a locked box.
5. The TB party discussed who could be trusted to guard the box and if necessary, locate and distribute the treasure to the heirs. Ultimately chose Robert Morriss.
6. Robert Morriss, hotel operator, had to be able decode the encrypted message. Based of the three sets of cipher numbers, TB chose a simple book cipher.

There is no reason to change the story or use a different encryption method UNLESS you cannot solve the ciphers.

Let me pose a question to the forum.

If Thomas J. Beale, a Virginian, wrote this story and buried the treasure in Virginia, then why can no one find definitive proof of his existence? People have found similar names, but virtually nothing regarding his specific life, homestead, or family context has ever surfaced.

Secondly, no one has found a shred of physical or documentary evidence in Virginia after 140 years of searching. There are no toll receipts, ferry manifests, or military records that document up to 35 adventurers traversing with 8,000 lbs of precious metals across roughly 1,800 miles of frontier terrain. While some claim the whole thing is a hoax, I posit a third option: the cargo never went to Virginia. It is hard for me to imagine any group that large, traveling that far, with that much high-risk cargo—crossing dangerous lands under Spanish rule, American Rule, and Native American nations completely undetected and incognito, leaving no paper trail other than a couple of letters.

I can believe the underlying truth of the story and the ciphers without accepting the Virginia destination. Just because James B. Ward published a forced, imperfect 'solve' of B2 (where many liberties were taken with the text to make it fit), doesn’t mean the ciphers were ever intended to be book ciphers. That concept is only implied by Ward, who had absolutely nothing to do with the original encryption.

This is not to be argumentative, it’s only my perspective based on the logistical realities of the era. I welcome any dissenting thoughts, I like the discourse.

 

[chalkoutline]

why can no one find definitive proof of his existence?

I mentioned before there ia a Thomas Beale who matches the description in the pamphlet so the question isn't if existed but rather where is the evidence that proves he was in Lynchburg during the years mentioned in the pamphlet.

As far as the other documents you mentioned...the only consistent records kept and maintained from the settling of America are deeds and wills. Other lesser documents have been lost to time; including birth and death records.

I can take the same approach...
Show me a record the proves Thomas Beale Jr, son Thomas Sr and grandson of Tavenor Beale, did not stay in Lynchburg during said period.

 

[souce19]

That’s exactly my point. According to the story, these 30-35 guys were wealthy. They weren't broke men or laborers, they were men of means who could afford to ditch their lives for years, fund a massive expedition out of pocket, and haul tons of gold across the country. In Virginia, you couldn't be wealthy and be a ghost. Wealthy men owned land, paid taxes, and left a massive paper trail. If 30 prominent men from Lynchburg VA actually packed up and vanished into the West for years, the local records would show it. They’d be all over the county Land Books and Personal Property Tax lists for their land, horses, and property. A rich man doesn't just leave his business or farm for two years without leaving something or someone behind so someone can pay his bills and manage his estate while he's gone. Those had to be officially recorded at the courthouse. Furthermore, their families and business partners would be all over the local court records dealing with the fallout of them being gone so long.

So I understand why you’re asking me to “prove a negative” , but the fact is, a whole expedition of wealthy local men wouldn't leave a total zero footprint in the very courthouse records they were legally required to fill out. If the paperwork isn't there, the story as written didn't happen. They very much kept records beyond birth, marriage, and death. That is my point.

I am happy to continue the discussion. You may be the most active Beale researcher here 😃

 

[chalkoutline]

I mentioned the only consistent records were deeds and wills. There is one more: US censused.
The 1820 census was conducted in in August of 1820 so none of the men would have shown up because they were out west according to the story which was not part of the United States.

Without knowing the names of those in the party one cannot determine whether thay had any tires to land other than there fathers.

In the case of TB, his father, TB Sr, he was wealthy and living in New Orleans.

 

[souce19]

So the Census, even then, recorded heads of households, property, and estates. Virginia collected annual Personal Property Taxes. As you know, no one gets a multi-year state tax holiday just because you went hunting out West. If they had property, someone had to be paying the taxes on it while they were gone.

Another aspect, claiming they were just young guys with no ties to land other than their fathers (The New Orleans one) contradicts the pamphlet itself. The text describes Beale as a "gentleman well educated, evidently of good family". Furthermore, the pamphlet states that this group formed an association (always found that legal term interesting) specifically to "encounter the expense" of the journey.

So we can't have it both ways. They cannot be wealthy, independent gentlemen capable of privately funding a massive, cross country hunting/mining/transport operation when the narrative needs them to be, but then change into poor, landless dependents the second we go looking for their tax receipts.

Let’s say we grant that Beale's wealthy father lived in New Orleans, what about the other 29-34 men? Are we really supposed to believe that 30+ "gentlemen" from the Lynchburg area all vanished for years, and not a single one of them had a business, an estate, or an annual tax bill left behind?

Thirty men capable of funding that kind of expedition doesn’t exist as ghosts waiting for a cipher to reveal their existence. If they left zero legal footprint in the Lynchburg archives, the simplest answer is (in my opinion, the logical one)they weren't from Lynchburg.

Side note, it seems they also had the means to procure all they’d need for mining in Santa Fe. So they carried a great deal of money with them while journeying, or somehow offloaded found gold and silver in Santa Fe for equipment, but I imagine that would’ve raised some red flags if so.

Thoughts?

 

[chalkoutline]

TB was raised in Virginia by his mother Chloe Delancy and attended the Liberty Hall Academy so he was well educated.
According to court records, he ran his father's estate until his father passed in 1820 when he inherited his estate in September.
This would have been after the cescus.

On August 7, 1820, just days prior to his death, Thomas Beale appeared on the 1820 US Census.
Thomas Beale Jr. was not listed as a head of household in the 1820 US Census

So TB Jr would not have been listed because you mentioned only head of household was listed.

As for the other members of the party you needs names to determine if they did or did not own land. To claim they did and how they dealt with taxes is pure speculation.

 

[souce19]

If court records show Thomas Beale Jr. was actively managing his father's estate in Virginia right up until his father passed away in September 1820, how exactly was he out West?
According to the pamphlet itself, the party left Virginia in 1817, hunted on the plains, stayed through the winter in Santa Fe, and discovered the gold during the winter of 1819–1820. He cannot physically be in Virginia running an estate for three years while also hauling tons of gold across the Spanish west. He was either managing his father’s estate in 1820, or he was in Santa Fe. He can’t do both.
As for the other 30 men, relying on the pamphlet’s own description of them is not speculation, it is just reading the Beale Letter. The text says they formed an association of gentleman who could 'encounter the expense' of the expedition. That requires a crazy amount of capital. In 1820, capital was property, businesses, livestock, and a massive legal footprint.
Saying I need their names to prove whether they owned land is exactly my point. The fact that no one can provide a single name, tax record, or deed for 30 supposedly wealthy local men proves they didn't exist in Lynchburg. The burden of proof isn't on me to identify 30 ghosts from a single letter from 1822, the historical record shows they weren't there to begin with. So I do believe my original thesis, TJB is not a Virginian. TJB is a pseudonym or pen name for someone else. The real hoax is Virginia and the “discovery of the appearance of gold in the cleft of the rocks”.

 

[chalkoutline]

An affidavit was recorded indicating TB Sr transferred his property to TB Jr in 1919 but the court later determined it to be fraudulent and sided with TB Sr wife rather than Chloe Delancy, TB J rs mother. (I.e., TB Jr was not present at the time of the affidavit).
The court records indicate TB Jr was present at the time of his death in September and started running his estate.
That gives TB Jr time to travel from the West by horse to Missouri and onto New Orleans and taking the steamboat (i.e., not a keel boat) to New Orleans in time for his father's death.

That still hives TB Jr time to meet up with the party buring the second cache in Lynchburg.

The timeline is quite possible so if you're going to attack this theory you have to attack...
How was TB Jr notified of his father's health and pending death since there was no telegraph at the time...

 

[chalkoutline]

In other words, you have to prove a rider couldn't have traveled West in time to notify TB Jr. I couldn't.

 

[souce19]

If court records show Thomas Beale Jr. was actively managing his father's estate in Virginia right up until his father passed away in September 1820, how exactly was he out West?
According to the pamphlet itself, the party left Virginia in 1817, hunted on the plains, stayed through the winter in Santa Fe, and discovered the gold during the winter of 1819–1820. He cannot physically be in Virginia running an estate for three years while also hauling tons of gold across the Spanish west. He was either managing his father’s estate in 1820, or he was in Santa Fe. He can’t do both.
As for the other 30 men, relying on the pamphlet’s own description of them is not speculation, it is just reading the Beale Letter. The text says they formed an association of gentleman who could 'encounter the expense' of the expedition. That requires a crazy amount of capital. In 1820, capital was property, businesses, livestock, and a massive legal footprint.
Saying I need their names to prove whether they owned land is exactly my point. The fact that no one can provide a single name, tax record, or deed for 30 supposedly wealthy local men proves they didn't exist in Lynchburg. The burden of proof isn't on me to identify 30 ghosts from a single letter from 1822, the historical record shows they weren't there to begin with. So I do believe my original thesis, TJB is not a Virginian. TJB is a pseudonym or pen name for someone else. The real hoax is Virginia and the “discovery of the appearance of gold in the cleft of the rocks”.

 

[souce19]

Sorry that was in reply to 2 replies prior haha. I thought it sent and it didn’t!

 

[chalkoutline]

According to the court records, TB Jr resided with his father upon his death and took control after his daeth in September 1820.
He ran the estate until TB Jrs death in 1823.

 

[chalkoutline]

Here my timeli ne from years ago.
I don't think TB Jr was in new orleans for the yellow highlighted.

I questioned the RED but couldn't prove a rider didn't notify TB Jr to head to New Orleans. There is still enough time after his father's death to meet his party in Lynchburg to bury the second cache.

So it all depends on the rider which i can't prove or disprove

 

[souce19]

According to the court records, TB Jr resided with his father upon his death and took control after his daeth in September 1820.
He ran the estate until TB Jrs death in 1823.

Attack may be a strong word haha. I am only pressure testing your proposal. So, let’s walk through the logistics of what you are proposing.

My first thought is, how is an early 19th-century courier supposed to find a mobile hunting party wandering through millions of square miles of uncharted wilderness?
According to the story itself, Beale and his men made an unexpected detour 250 to 300 miles north of Santa Fe. They weren't even where they originally planned to be. How could the courier be advised that the original party changed their route? Even if the messenger knew exactly where to go, you are asking me to believe a single rider maintained breakneck speeds across the American frontier, through Native American territories, and across strictly regulated Spanish military borders—just to find a secret, mobile camp and he had to do all this, find them, and give Beale enough time to make the several month journey back to the Mississippi River, catch a steamboat, and be in New Orleans by September 1820? That means the courier had to leave months before the father actually died to make the math work.You don't need me to prove a rider couldn't do it. I believe the ground that needed to be covered and the timeline do that on their own.

For the record, this has been the most engaging Beale conversation I’ve had. I am actually very glad you continue to engage. There are very few of us left trying to make sense of these ciphers and the story. So respect to you my friend!

Please do not think that I am trying to be rude or disrespectful. This is far from it.