Rock? Artifact? Why Argue? What's This One?

[diggummup]

I'm not a serious collector of Native American Artifacts but I have found a few in the wild and do have an interest in the field itself. Having said that, the few times when I have posted items on here that I am unsure of, I will pay heed to the advice of the experts (99% of the time).

What I don't understand are those that post rocks and want to argue with the experts (and there are a few real ones) on here.

To me, it seems they aren't really looking for an answer to the object in question, so much as they are wanting confirmation of their own preconceived notions for their "artifact". Once told that it's not an artifact, they get mad.

So to all those who already "know" you have an "artifact" there is no need for you to post it looking for validation or confirmation. For those that don't know and really are asking for advice, just listen. No one here has an agenda. They are here to help. Me too, whenever that's possible.

Now, what do you think of this piece? This was picked up years ago in either Ky. or Tn., I forget exactly.

 

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[The Grim Reaper]

I couldn't have said it better. The sad thing is these type of posters will continue to list items that aren't artifacts, be told they aren't what the believe they are, and then get angry, call us stupid, and eventually move on until they find someone to agree with them.

As as for your piece, from what I can see from your pictures that looks like a nice small Blade. Side view to see thickness would help.

 

[Charl]

Not sure why the "grooved stone" thread was locked, since the conversation seemed civil, and involved the confusion inexperienced folks often experience when they receive short and to the point answers as to whether what they are showing us is a rock or an artifact. Since this is a problem that happens time and again, and since this thread touches on these same problems, I'll make the effort to add some thoughts here as well.

Speaking for myself, but this in fact will apply to any collector with lots of experience. So long as the photos are good, and sufficient angles provided, etc., I can be expected to recognize if I am looking at a rock or an artifact in mere seconds. My recognition of a rock is second nature. My recognition of an artifact is second nature. But, it's precisely when knowledge and recognition is second nature, that explaining to an inexperienced eye why it's a rock or an artifact becomes most difficult. It actually becomes more difficult for the experienced eye to explain reasoning that's really taking place at an unconscious, second nature, level. Does anyone imagine that an experienced eye sees a rock, and then goes through a 20 step process in their mind to determine if it's a rock and not an artifact? Of course not. They know within seconds if it's a rock or artifact. But that is often why such experienced opinions can seem, to the inexperienced, too quick, maybe even arrogant. The overwhelming natural tendency will be to say some version of "that's just a rock". It's not that people think too highly of their own opinions. It's because experience makes their recognition second nature, and they can answer quickly and to the point.

 

[diggummup]

Side view for thickness...

 

[smokeythecat]

Yes, it is a native artifact. Probably a knife and it looks finished. Do you know what kind of material it is made of? I have been hammering the ground for artifacts the last 6 weeks and finally did good this weekend. It's tough out there!

 

[arrow86]

Couldn’t agree more with all you said in your post , the item is definitely an artifact but something tells me you already knew thay

 

[Tnmountains]

Knife versus preform. I have a very large Tupperware container of blades. But some have a notch on one side. I think a blade can be used as is or notched into a knife/point. But I am no expert. I think most of us started hunting artifacts before the internet and had to rely on old collectors or books. Much of the info we had then was wrong and the internet makes knowledge more fluid now.
I like to think back to some of the old theories on things and look how they have changed today. 3 that come to mind are bird points, blunts, and 10,000 years. Also heating a chert stone dropping water on it to cause the flakes Lol

 

[smokeythecat]

Tnmountains, there were four people there who were looking to get some flint to make arrowhead from. From what I saw they got some pieces they felt hopeful about. Overhearing part of the conversation, apparently the flint has to be heated just so to get it to flake, and if it gets too hot it breaks, if there are small quartz crystals inside, it breaks, if there are cracks it breaks, if it gets wet, like rains, during the heating process, it breaks, and if it cools too fast it breaks. They were digging pits outside and putting the rocks in a pit and building fires over them. Apparently a lot of rocks shatter this way. I don't think I'll be flint knapping anytime soon.

 

[releventchair]

Tnmountains, there were four people there who were looking to get some flint to make arrowhead from. From what I saw they got some pieces they felt hopeful about. Overhearing part of the conversation, apparently the flint has to be heated just so to get it to flake, and if it gets too hot it breaks, if there are small quartz crystals inside, it breaks, if there are cracks it breaks, if it gets wet, like rains, during the heating process, it breaks, and if it cools too fast it breaks. They were digging pits outside and putting the rocks in a pit and building fires over them. Apparently a lot of rocks shatter this way. I don't think I'll be flint knapping anytime soon.

Dad has buried Low grade flint under fire pit sand and left it till fire burned out and soil cooled to make it "harder".

O.P. Nice piece.
In fun,it might be a guitar pick.

 

[smokeythecat]

Guitar pick! Excellent! I wonder if an oven would work?

 

[releventchair]

Guitar pick! Excellent! I wonder if an oven would work?

There's articles out there on it.
A quick look for oven use only showed a certain already good quality flint being treated.https://www.jstor.org/stable/41999761?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

 

[smokeythecat]

Well I have the best. No real need to heat it since I don’t flint Knapp.

 

[ToddsPoint]

You cook flint in a pottery kiln converted for flint use. (Lower temps) Cooking it outside with a fire is hit or miss. Lots of variables to overcome. Lots of loss like Smokey said. Flint changes at anywhere from 450F to 750F and it takes 8 to 10 hrs to do a batch. In a kiln with a thermometer you don't lose too much.

I know an old knapper that lives on Flintridge. He bought a backhoe and dug up his land and removed all the flint. Still needed more but how to get it? He offered anyone on the Ridge free backhoe service but he gets to keep any flint that gets dug up. That was 20 yrs. ago and now he had a garage full of the most beautiful Flintridge flint you have ever seen. Gary

 

[ToddsPoint]

You can tell if it's a preform or finished by the width to thickness ratio. A normal finished Indian point has at least a 5:1 width to thickness. 4:1 or less is a preform. More than 5:1 means an expert knapper and a very thin sharp blade. Gary

 

[Reanm8er]

I can't agree enough regarding the acceptance of the opinions of the more experienced relic hunters among us. I would like to reference some scientific information regarding the migrational patterns that contribute to diversity in paleolithic artifacts.

As the map shows there were more than one migration(s) and perhaps from more than one continent. They may have been separated by more than 10,000 years. The white slashed line represents the earlier migration that migrated along the edge of the glacial ice sheet that covered the northern half of the continent during the last ice age. The black slashed line represent a migration that occurred some thousands of years later and sought out a more fertile, temperate and game rich southern route. They eventually came together in the Mid Atlantic states and melded their tool making technologies together. This photo shows the differences between paleo tools made by the earlier Northern migration and Neolithic tools made by the later in the Southern US.

The second photo further illuminates the differences in the medium and quality of the two different groups.

These are not preforms or cast offs but recognized forms of tools readily used by the peoples in the northern migrations. I personally don't think that finds that look like this should be dismissed and disregarded by those primarily familiar with artifacts found in the southern states by a later migration of peoples. In the particular county I live in we regularly find the quartzite variety because there are so many of them here. The other type which were made after the natives discovered the two veins of flint in the area are largely 18" to 24" underground. The most famous dig for that style and quality of artifacts is the "Thunderbird" dig which can be researched on line. At that site they found a place where a tool maker knelt in the dirt and formed flaked points, leaving the outline of his knees and legs in the chips. That site is about 1 1/2" miles from the vein of flint on "Flint Run" which was buried when Rt 340 was improved and paved in the 30s.

 

[Reanm8er]

I can't agree enough regarding the acceptance of the opinions of the more experienced relic hunters among us. I would like to reference some scientific information regarding the migrational patterns that contribute to diversity in paleolithic artifacts.

View attachment 1636758
As the map shows there were more than one migration(s) and perhaps from more than one continent. They may have been separated by more than 10,000 years. The white slashed line represents the earlier migration that migrated along the edge of the glacial ice sheet that covered the northern half of the continent during the last ice age. The black slashed line represents a migration that occurred some thousands of years later and sought out a more fertile, temperate and game rich southern route. They eventually came together in the Mid Atlantic states and melded their tool making technologies together. This photo shows the differences between paleo tools made by the earlier Northern migration and Neolithic tools made by the later in the Southern US.View attachment 1636764
The second photo further illuminates the differences in the medium and quality of the two different groups. View attachment 1636765



These are not preforms or cast offs but recognized forms of tools readily used by the peoples in the northern migrations. I personally don't think that finds that look like this should be dismissed and disregarded by those primarily familiar with artifacts found in the southern states by a later migration of peoples. In the particular county I live in we regularly find the quartzite variety because there are so many of them here. The other type which were made after the natives discovered the two veins of flint in the area are largely 18" to 24" underground owing to the change in riverbed topography. The most famous dig for that style and quality of artifacts is the "Thunderbird" dig which can be researched on line. At that site they found a place where a tool maker knelt in the dirt and formed flaked points, leaving the outline of his knees and legs in the chips. That site is about 1 1/2" miles from the vein of flint on "Flint Run" which was buried when Rt 340 was improved and paved in the 30s.

This photo shows a Chinese man of the same ethnic heritage chipping out a quartzite blank for a primitive tool.

 

[ToddsPoint]

I think the photo shows a guy working wood with an adze. Quartzite has to be pecked, not chipped. Gary

 

[Reanm8er]

Due respects Gary, The photo came from a paleo artifact website. I think their intent was to illustrate that even in modern time the descendants of the Anu still make stone tools. If wood shouldn't we see some shreds along side of where he's chopping? Absolutely he is using an iron adze but he looks like he knows what he's doing. I certainly don't claim to be an expert, just a student. I have been hunting this stuff and collecting for 62 Yrs but I'm always up to learning something new.
Thanks for looking!

 

[Plumbata]

If wood shouldn't we see some shreds along side of where he's chopping?

We do, there are a bunch of pieces of trimmed wood between his knees and the piece of wood he's working. They look just as they should using the adze in that manner. I think the website just didn't do a good job of selecting a properly illustrative image for the point they were trying to make.

 

[releventchair]

Adze for lithic work is a bit of a reach. Hard on the adze too. An adze usually follows axe work to smooth a surface.

Look at the trees in the picture.
Their base vs height at three feet and the multiple trunks.
Now look at what is being worked...

An adze usually follows ax work for smoothing.
Not sure what the worker is doing to the material ,but he is not hollowing out a large piece of stone.