PYD25 posted the link to the article up thread. Work of the folks from Woods Hole no doubt. Amazing what is possible at depth these days. Salvage operation is going to be quite expensive I would think. ROVs and manned submersibles...
San Jose Discovered Off Coast Of Columbia
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PYD25 posted the link to the article up thread. Work of the folks from Woods Hole no doubt. Amazing what is possible at depth these days. Salvage operation is going to be quite expensive I would think. ROVs and manned submersibles...
cuzcosquirrel
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A quote from an article: "based on the speculation that it had up to 11 million 4-doubloons (11 million 8 escudos gold coins; 11 million coins of 27g of 92% gold totaling 8.8 million troy ounces."
This idea about all the 8 escudos that were on this ship: Santa Fe de Bogata and Lima were not producing tens of thousands of gold coins a year. They were producing maybe thousands of gold coins and tens of thousands of silver ones in the best cases. Perhaps Santa Fe put out 10,000 crude 2 escudos in a good year, and it might have been during this time. I'm not even sure they could have picked up the delivery of them before sinking. I thought I heard it was caught going into the harbor, not away. Sure it was a major treasure ship, and it maybe had two or three times what the Atocha had on it when it sank, but some of these numbers are pretty far up there in the sky.
I counted all the cannons I could see in the large picture and it looked like there were about 20, of all the same type. Some are stacked on each other like the decks rotted away and collapsed back inward, at an angle with some roll. From the ones that are on the south side of the picture, it looks like it hit the sea bed hard and threw them out, from the top or the bottom gun deck. Some appear to have collapsed in place down to the sea floor as the wood disintegrated.
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Spain has just issued Colombia with a "friendly" warning: all their non-visa scheme to enter into Europe - that Spain helped to put in place - is really going down the drain if Spanish archaeologists are not present, at least:
https://www.abc.es/cultura/abci-esp...galeon-san-jose-201806210044_noticia_amp.html
Nest week I am flying to Madrid, to speak at an event held at the National Archaeological Musem of Spain. Together with me, people from Colombia, Mexico, Spain, etc. - it is going to be fun:
MAN - Museo Arqueológico Nacional
https://www.abc.es/cultura/abci-esp...galeon-san-jose-201806210044_noticia_amp.html
Nest week I am flying to Madrid, to speak at an event held at the National Archaeological Musem of Spain. Together with me, people from Colombia, Mexico, Spain, etc. - it is going to be fun:
MAN - Museo Arqueológico Nacional
I had the opportunity to watch most of the seminar yesterday, had to set the alarm a bit early, missed only the first presentations. Most were very interesting, well researched and informative, balanced and objective with a high scientific level. Others were sadly absolutely speculative, full of conspiracy theories that hold no water and seem to be invented only to hype up the event. The tops had to be the theory that was proposed by Lic. Lancho that Sea Search Armada, who have been battling the Colombian Government for 32 years and have a favorable Supreme Court ruling in their favor and a court ordered lien on any object that are or will be recovered from the San Jose, are secret partners with MAC, the now proponents to extract the wreck. This theory must go on the Guinness Book of World Records as the most fantastic and original conspiracy theory of them all.
It was also interesting to hear the discussion, from the Spanish perspective, of the 1715 fleet recoveries that currently takes place in Florida. Quite an educational event, very well organized and of high quality, overall I'd say it was very good, the only missing elements were the other side of the arguments, the other views that exist elsewhere in the world. These sort of discussions should, in an effort to narrow the huge ideological distances that separate us, be open to different streams of thought, not just one sided discussions, in my very humble opinion.
https://www.abc.es/cultura/abci-legado-galeon-san-jose-no-pertenece-cazadores-tesoros-sino-humanidad-201807111658_video.html
Panfilo
It was also interesting to hear the discussion, from the Spanish perspective, of the 1715 fleet recoveries that currently takes place in Florida. Quite an educational event, very well organized and of high quality, overall I'd say it was very good, the only missing elements were the other side of the arguments, the other views that exist elsewhere in the world. These sort of discussions should, in an effort to narrow the huge ideological distances that separate us, be open to different streams of thought, not just one sided discussions, in my very humble opinion.
https://www.abc.es/cultura/abci-legado-galeon-san-jose-no-pertenece-cazadores-tesoros-sino-humanidad-201807111658_video.html
Panfilo
whydahdiver
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Muchas gracias for this. We should do a conference with BOTH sides represented, not just those with halos over their inflated heads!
Whydahdiver
Whydahdiver
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More images to be found here:
https://www.whoi.edu/news-release/new-details-on-discovery-of-the-san-jose-shipwreck
and here:
https://www.whoi.edu/news-release/new-details-on-discovery-of-the-san-jose-shipwreck
and here:
Not to be petty, but "cannons" and "cannon" are both grammatically correct plural forms of the singular noun "cannon".
Enrada, if you are searching for Spanish treasure you should definitely learn Spanish.
All videos here:
Los vídeos del simposio: El verdadero tesoro de Indias: galeones y arqueología | Espejo de navegantes
GreenHiker
Jr. Member
Enrada - The videos of the conference are hosted on Youtube, and you can select English subtitles for videos there.
From the provided link, double click the conference video to watch it from the Youtube site. Then you select the "CC" icon in the bottom right of screen. That turned on the subtitles, so to translate them to English, click the gear icon (settings), click subtitles line and then click auto translate. Next pop up is languages, so scroll to English. That should do it.
If I skipped any steps - someone please correct me. Hope that helps until you complete the Spanish class. :-)
From the provided link, double click the conference video to watch it from the Youtube site. Then you select the "CC" icon in the bottom right of screen. That turned on the subtitles, so to translate them to English, click the gear icon (settings), click subtitles line and then click auto translate. Next pop up is languages, so scroll to English. That should do it.
If I skipped any steps - someone please correct me. Hope that helps until you complete the Spanish class. :-)
cuzcosquirrel
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- Aug 20, 2008
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The picture of the Chinese tea cups spread out is pretty interesting. These must have been brought over to Acapulco and moved overland through Vera Cruz to be put on the San Jose. It shows she had a mixed cargo with a lot of Chinese goods. These were probably packed in the middle of the main hold in boxes or barrels, perhaps in clay. Manila galleons carried their bulk porcelain spread around in boxes, a few feet apart, as can be seen on another wreck. The entire worth of the cargo could have been very high, if it carried scores of silk bales. Unfortunately, these are now gone.
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Marine Archaeology Int.
Jr. Member
More images to be found here:
https://www.whoi.edu/news-release/new-details-on-discovery-of-the-san-jose-shipwreck
and here:
Bill, can you spot the gold coin at the bottom of your picture, a bit to the right?
xaos
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In recent weeks the Colombian government itself has been the one who revealed that the person who put Santos on the new track of the galleon was Roger Dooley , who has a white beard but is not an old sea wolf, but an old treasure hunter trained with a a company based in Ontario, called Visa Gold, and that, after accusations of fraud, became very famous in Cuba for mounting the company Carisub with Fidel Castro to extract riches from wrecks with treasure, as ABC reported .
https://www.abc.es/cultura/abci-loc...ns_linkname=noticia.foto.cultura&ns_fee=pos-3
panfilo, can you elaborate? I mean which one of the sessions relates to this subject, there are many!
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GreenHiker
Jr. Member
Google translated page from above:
With the recent revelations of Sea Search Armada (SSA), the treasure hunt company with which the Government of Colombia signed a contract in 1980 to grant it the exploitation of the San José galleon, regarding that the location coordinates of the wreck would have been stolen from one of its experts, the foundational myth of President Juan Manuel Santos' project for the San José galleon, sunk in 1708, has fallen. And the future of the project of the still president is placed in the shadow of a new suspicion.
Since the discovery of the galleon was announced in December 2015, Santos coined a mythical, almost story-telling version of the mysterious visit of an old white-bearded expert who had been searching for San José for forty years and who would have found clues about the whereabouts of the remains in a "treasure map". Much was speculated on with the identity of that old sea lion and the clues enclosed in a map of the surroundings of Cartagena, found in the Library of the Congress of the USA, which would contain details about some low and islets related to the "treasure" , but the truth is that that did not convince anyone. First, because old maps do not have the precision of GPS coordinates. Also because the details of the map are well known. And also because the search for the wreck took in record time. But who was the mysterious informant that Santos wrapped in sweet considerations?
In recent weeks the Colombian government itself has been the one who revealed that the person who put Santos on the new track of the galleon was Roger Dooley, who has a white beard but is not an old sea wolf, but an old treasure hunter trained with a company based in Ontario, called Visa Gold, and that, after accusations of fraud, became very famous in Cuba for mounting the company Carisub with Fidel Castro to extract riches from wrecks with treasure, as ABC reported.
A statement made public by Sea Search Armada clarifies where Dooley could have obtained specific information about the location of San Jose. The funny thing about this document is that it reveals that Roger Dooley was employed by SSA, between 2000 and 2003, as part of IOTA Partners, the company that since 1988 was in charge of financing and administering SSA. The company now accuses Dooley of having had access to the digitized files on his past activities in Colombia, two decades of documentation related primarily to San Jose. It should be recalled that the Colombian Government and SSA sued for two decades in US and Colombian courts for the rights over San Jose, in a further demonstration that deals with treasure hunters always end badly for governments.
Since the discovery of the galleon was announced in December 2015, Santos coined a mythical, almost story-telling version of the mysterious visit of an old white-bearded expert who had been searching for San José for forty years and who would have found clues about the whereabouts of the remains in a "treasure map". Much was speculated on with the identity of that old sea lion and the clues enclosed in a map of the surroundings of Cartagena, found in the Library of the Congress of the USA, which would contain details about some low and islets related to the "treasure" , but the truth is that that did not convince anyone. First, because old maps do not have the precision of GPS coordinates. Also because the details of the map are well known. And also because the search for the wreck took in record time. But who was the mysterious informant that Santos wrapped in sweet considerations?
In recent weeks the Colombian government itself has been the one who revealed that the person who put Santos on the new track of the galleon was Roger Dooley, who has a white beard but is not an old sea wolf, but an old treasure hunter trained with a company based in Ontario, called Visa Gold, and that, after accusations of fraud, became very famous in Cuba for mounting the company Carisub with Fidel Castro to extract riches from wrecks with treasure, as ABC reported.
A statement made public by Sea Search Armada clarifies where Dooley could have obtained specific information about the location of San Jose. The funny thing about this document is that it reveals that Roger Dooley was employed by SSA, between 2000 and 2003, as part of IOTA Partners, the company that since 1988 was in charge of financing and administering SSA. The company now accuses Dooley of having had access to the digitized files on his past activities in Colombia, two decades of documentation related primarily to San Jose. It should be recalled that the Colombian Government and SSA sued for two decades in US and Colombian courts for the rights over San Jose, in a further demonstration that deals with treasure hunters always end badly for governments.
Colombia was condemned to pay, in the event that the galleon finally appeared where SSA said it was, with half of everything extracted. Since Santos announced the discovery of San Jose, SSA has accused him that the location coincides practically with the one they gave to the Colombian government in the 1980s, something that Bogotá has repeatedly denied, although maintaining state secrecy over the entire operation.
SSA is clear about Dooley's motivations and Santos' modus operandi. In 1997, Colombia passed a law that prohibited the granting of objects related to shipwrecks to any company. And that changed in 2013, when Santos managed to pass a new law that allows to pay treasure hunters with up to 50% of the treasures of the galleon, coins, bullion and industrial cargo, ie all manufactured goods. For this reason, for the North American company SSA it is very coincidental that it was in 2014 when the old sea dog secretly met with Santos and whispered the coordinates of a San José location, or as Santos said, gave him "the map of the treasure »never before known.
SSA managing director Jack Harbeston asks: "Why did Santos keep Roger Dooley's involvement in this whole affair secret? If there is nothing to hide, why the secret? "The statement indicates that, in fact, that circumstance is being investigated both by journalists and by the Colombian Attorney General. And, adds Harbeston: if that investigation is maintained, other "coincidences" that have remained hidden will surely come to light. For SSA, what delayed the start of contacts until 2014 has been "the corruption behind the treasures of the San José galleon".
Returning to Dooley, we know that he has been seen in Cartagena since January 2016 in the company of Santos and has been actively participating in the operations. But what the SSA company has revealed is that while he was his employee, he worked in a farm granted by the United States Government to dig with a Manila galleon sunk in the Marianas (a topic that the Government of Spain should talk to Washington and NOAA, with which agreements have been signed to respect the submerged cultural heritage of Hispanic origin).
The fact is that, while working in the Pacific, Dooley could have had direct access to the archives. The hypothesis of SSA is based on the fact that with those files, Dooley would have let enough time pass, waiting for the Colombian legal framework to change (partly thanks to pressures from treasure hunters such as Burt Webber and Bob Marx, which influenced the gestation of Law 1675/2013). Once achieved, he would have agreed with Santos to become the originator of the project, which he personally did in January 2015.
SSA is clear about Dooley's motivations and Santos' modus operandi. In 1997, Colombia passed a law that prohibited the granting of objects related to shipwrecks to any company. And that changed in 2013, when Santos managed to pass a new law that allows to pay treasure hunters with up to 50% of the treasures of the galleon, coins, bullion and industrial cargo, ie all manufactured goods. For this reason, for the North American company SSA it is very coincidental that it was in 2014 when the old sea dog secretly met with Santos and whispered the coordinates of a San José location, or as Santos said, gave him "the map of the treasure »never before known.
SSA managing director Jack Harbeston asks: "Why did Santos keep Roger Dooley's involvement in this whole affair secret? If there is nothing to hide, why the secret? "The statement indicates that, in fact, that circumstance is being investigated both by journalists and by the Colombian Attorney General. And, adds Harbeston: if that investigation is maintained, other "coincidences" that have remained hidden will surely come to light. For SSA, what delayed the start of contacts until 2014 has been "the corruption behind the treasures of the San José galleon".
Returning to Dooley, we know that he has been seen in Cartagena since January 2016 in the company of Santos and has been actively participating in the operations. But what the SSA company has revealed is that while he was his employee, he worked in a farm granted by the United States Government to dig with a Manila galleon sunk in the Marianas (a topic that the Government of Spain should talk to Washington and NOAA, with which agreements have been signed to respect the submerged cultural heritage of Hispanic origin).
The fact is that, while working in the Pacific, Dooley could have had direct access to the archives. The hypothesis of SSA is based on the fact that with those files, Dooley would have let enough time pass, waiting for the Colombian legal framework to change (partly thanks to pressures from treasure hunters such as Burt Webber and Bob Marx, which influenced the gestation of Law 1675/2013). Once achieved, he would have agreed with Santos to become the originator of the project, which he personally did in January 2015.
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Project is now suspended by the Colombian Government.. 
https://www.abc.es/cultura/abci-pri...ate-galeon-san-jose-201807231603_noticia.html
https://www.abc.es/cultura/abci-pri...ate-galeon-san-jose-201807231603_noticia.html
xaos
Bronze Member
- Jul 3, 2018
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Robert Fraser Marine! Ouch!
"More coincidences: both Marshall and Clake were splattered in October 2012 by the scandal of a plot that used the rescue of shipwrecks with treasure to evade taxes in Britain , which ABC reported. Organized by the Robert Fraser Group, it brought together banks and 18 companies of treasure hunters, of which 11 went bankrupt.
The plot consisted in investing an amount of which only a percentage was set. For example, someone invested 250,000 pounds and borrowed 750,000 from the Fraser bank. If the promised treasure was not found (and only one of the 18 companies managed to rescue something), a tax reduction was requested for the entire million . In addition, the loan could be made in the name of a family member, who returned it to the investor free of taxes the next day. When investigating that plot, "The Times" published that Marshall had invested 1.9 million pounds and Anthony Clake 17 million in six of the companies of Fraser.
The lawyer Lancho's report shows not only that they are still partners but that some companies of the Fraser group have been acquired as Galahad Marine, in which Paul Marshall himself took control in August 2017, a year ago. In any case, Fraser is a conglomerate of many dozens of companies, some as important as the energy company Rurelec, which nonetheless keeps Galahad Marine among its participating companies.
And this is where Odyssey Marine Exploration enters , which signed shortly before the scandal, in April 2011, a strategic agreement for underwater mining activities with Robert Fraser & Partners (RFP). The owner of RFP is named Colin Emson and was happy, after signing the agreement, for the number of his clients who had signed contracts with Odyssey. It is also striking that the Fraser group has multiple companies, including Robert Fraser Marine , specializing in projects aimed at the exploration of wrecks and marine resources.
Odyssey, Swire and WHOI
The amazing thing is that Odyssey has turned both Swire Seabed and Fraser's customers and investors into its partners for the past eight years. So that at the time that Colombia changed its law (2013) to excavate the San José and announced the finding of the galleon (2015), Odyssey developed agreements and projects such as the extraction of 48 tons of silver from the SS Gairsoppa (2013) with the ship from Swire, Seabed Worker.
And between 2013 and 2014, he negotiated with the WHOI (Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution) his "participation in the scientific activities in the field" of SS Central America , operating, among other things, the remote vehicle Zeus, the same one with which the frigate was plundered Mercedes. WHOI also put "technology and science" in the search for the San Jose galleon. For those who defend the scientific neutrality of this institution, there is not much excuse for seeing the activities in which it participates."
I am confused about the closing statement.
"The fund of Marshall Wace, financial lung of the Santos project, is an old ally in his underwater adventures of the conglomerate Robert Fraser, and both have turned to Odyssey Marine. It is undeniable that the achievements to date of the Santos project have been provided by Odyssey contractors and collaborators : Swire (the ship) and WHOI. The corresponding authorities should investigate ».
And he asks about the San José de Santos project: "Is it about Odyssey's revenge?"
https://www.abc.es/cultura/abci-tra...ate-galeon-san-jose-201807090244_noticia.html
"More coincidences: both Marshall and Clake were splattered in October 2012 by the scandal of a plot that used the rescue of shipwrecks with treasure to evade taxes in Britain , which ABC reported. Organized by the Robert Fraser Group, it brought together banks and 18 companies of treasure hunters, of which 11 went bankrupt.
The plot consisted in investing an amount of which only a percentage was set. For example, someone invested 250,000 pounds and borrowed 750,000 from the Fraser bank. If the promised treasure was not found (and only one of the 18 companies managed to rescue something), a tax reduction was requested for the entire million . In addition, the loan could be made in the name of a family member, who returned it to the investor free of taxes the next day. When investigating that plot, "The Times" published that Marshall had invested 1.9 million pounds and Anthony Clake 17 million in six of the companies of Fraser.
The lawyer Lancho's report shows not only that they are still partners but that some companies of the Fraser group have been acquired as Galahad Marine, in which Paul Marshall himself took control in August 2017, a year ago. In any case, Fraser is a conglomerate of many dozens of companies, some as important as the energy company Rurelec, which nonetheless keeps Galahad Marine among its participating companies.
And this is where Odyssey Marine Exploration enters , which signed shortly before the scandal, in April 2011, a strategic agreement for underwater mining activities with Robert Fraser & Partners (RFP). The owner of RFP is named Colin Emson and was happy, after signing the agreement, for the number of his clients who had signed contracts with Odyssey. It is also striking that the Fraser group has multiple companies, including Robert Fraser Marine , specializing in projects aimed at the exploration of wrecks and marine resources.
Odyssey, Swire and WHOI
The amazing thing is that Odyssey has turned both Swire Seabed and Fraser's customers and investors into its partners for the past eight years. So that at the time that Colombia changed its law (2013) to excavate the San José and announced the finding of the galleon (2015), Odyssey developed agreements and projects such as the extraction of 48 tons of silver from the SS Gairsoppa (2013) with the ship from Swire, Seabed Worker.
And between 2013 and 2014, he negotiated with the WHOI (Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution) his "participation in the scientific activities in the field" of SS Central America , operating, among other things, the remote vehicle Zeus, the same one with which the frigate was plundered Mercedes. WHOI also put "technology and science" in the search for the San Jose galleon. For those who defend the scientific neutrality of this institution, there is not much excuse for seeing the activities in which it participates."
I am confused about the closing statement.
"The fund of Marshall Wace, financial lung of the Santos project, is an old ally in his underwater adventures of the conglomerate Robert Fraser, and both have turned to Odyssey Marine. It is undeniable that the achievements to date of the Santos project have been provided by Odyssey contractors and collaborators : Swire (the ship) and WHOI. The corresponding authorities should investigate ».
And he asks about the San José de Santos project: "Is it about Odyssey's revenge?"
https://www.abc.es/cultura/abci-tra...ate-galeon-san-jose-201807090244_noticia.html
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cuzcosquirrel
Hero Member
- Aug 20, 2008
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Project is now suspended by the Colombian Government..
https://www.abc.es/cultura/abci-pri...ate-galeon-san-jose-201807231603_noticia.html
It's too bad, and you can see where the robot's props blew off some of the sediment and organic gunk to reveal 2 escudos, and see some other coins laying there also. No one thought this would go smoothly, when there is so much gold involved (though it is not supposed to be a consideration.) This is an interesting debris field, with a lot to be looked at.
Marine Archaeology Int.
Jr. Member
The project is not suspended. Outgoing president Santos decided not to sing the APP (Association Public Private) 10 before leaving office to avoid the perception of a conflict of interest, deciding instead that it should be president elect Ivan Duke and his new administration who grants the final contract.
xaos
Bronze Member
- Jul 3, 2018
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MAI, with all respect, is seems it is suspended.
Colombian President Juan Manuel Santos has announced in the final stretch of his mandate the suspension of the rescue process of the Spanish galleon San José , sunk in the eighteenth century near Cartagena de Indias and whose wreck was found in 2015, claiming that there are precautionary measures in Justice to be resolved. "I have taken the decision to suspend the terms of the current process," he said in a statement in Bogota, in which he also said that Justice "has not yet ruled on these precautionary measures."
On the contract weighed the imminence of a court ruling that could order precautionary measures and stop the bidding. It supposes a victory for Spain and also for the common sense, as the scientists ask.
Reading this, there are 2 parts. There is the suspension by Santos and there is the court ruling. Can you provide any information to clear this up?
From the article it looks like the courts have not made a determination on the process to which the shipwreck can be recovered. Sorry but it seems like the deal far from any go ahead to begin the recovery process?
Do you have an opinion on the ties to Robert Fraser Marine?
There is some information in this article about the contract but is very slanted against the project.
https://www.abc.es/cultura/abci-pag...as-y-lingotes-xviii-201804020103_noticia.html
According to point 3.3 of the contract, for the purposes of compensation to the company (in the account of non-financial assets) «in the case of metals, the expert must determine the weight taking into account only the following criteria: composition (material) and quality (purity) » . The expert must not take into account other parameters. That is, they will be paid with coins and bullion quantified by weight. Enter more to achieve the same figure, because it is clear that it is not the same to sell coins and ingots of the XVIII to the peso that by its imonial value
Compensation by weight? Compensated by an equal weight? Is this a bad translation?
update: enrada the translator missed patrimonial. Should read.
Enter more to achieve the same figure, because it is clear that it is not the same to sell coins and ingots of the XVIII to the peso that by its patrimonial value
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