Searching for more information on San Joseph y Nuestra Señora de la Granada 1744,

[Crow]

Bill of lading for silver on the ship San Joseph y Nuestra Señora de la Granada, 28 November 1744 left Veracruz
Did make its destination?

Might be interesting wreck out there some where?




Crow

 

[creatmosfairy]

Hello CROW,

Do you have found any kind of historian informations or documents, that these ship were wrecked or foundered on her homebound way ?

Creatmosfairy

 

[Mackaydon]

Crow,
Any mention of the captain's name or the compositon and/or weight of the silver?
Don in SoCal

 

[Crow]

Hello Mackaydon and creatmosfairy.

I AM SORRY, I do not have much to add. I suspect it is connected with early shipping from Veracruz via Louisiana. Spain governed Louisiana from 1763 to March 1803. Ceded by France following the Seven Years' War, Spanish Louisiana was administered as part of New Spain. It saw significant cultural blending, economic growth, and secret retrocession to France just before the United States acquired it via the Louisiana Purchase.

It was a bundle of other unrelated documents. I have not followed up with research, as I have been sidetracked with an unrelated 150 tons of silver missing.

Crow

 

[Mackaydon]

Hello Crow,
One fellow on Facebook some time ago also asked (in Spanish) about that same vessel but I saw no responses.
His name was Eliseo Godoy. Searching that name, I came up with another option: Eliseo Godoy Dionisio.
Searching that name, I drew a blank; without any reference to maritime actiivity.
Don in SoCal

 

[Red-Coat]

Crow,
Any mention of the captain's name or the compositon and/or weight of the silver?
Don in SoCal

The name of the captain is hand written between the printed words “Digo Yo D…” (I say that Mr…” and “Maeftre” (ship’s master). That's the usual format for documents like this.

I don’t know if this helps, or if it’s even correct, but I ran an enhancement through some OCR software and the most likely interpretation I got was “Antonio Aguado” with a higher degree of certainty for the Christian name than the surname.

 

[Mackaydon]

Red-Coat,
Good catch on the name, Antonio Aguado. I agree but cannot find a Captain with that name. The 'Puerto de San Juan de Ulua refers to the island castle (fort) that overlooks the port of Vera Cruz. As I recall, the seaside wall of the fort had 7 large rings to which the galleons moored their richly landened vessels. Back in the day, I had a permit from the Admiral to search that area but those in "Archaeology' said we could do what we wanted in the water column (Admiral's permission) but we would be prohibited from disturbing the bottom--and that ended that venture.
Don in SoCal

 

[Red-Coat]

Although I am highly sceptical of AI, I asked the simple (?) question:

“Does the name Antonio Aguado have any connection to 1700s Spanish treasure ships?” This was the answer (my emphasis in bold):

“No, the name Antonio Aguado does not have a historical connection to 1700s Spanish treasure ships. Any modern claims or documents linking his name to the 1715 Plate Fleet or other famous treasure wrecks are almost certainly part of a modern scam or counterfeit scheme. Historically, "Antonio Aguado" is a name associated with 19th-century Spanish architecture, most notably as the architect who designed the famous neoclassical Puerta de Toledo in Madrid between 1813 and 1827. If someone is presenting you with historical-looking documents, cargo manifests, or salvage claims bearing his name in an attempt to sell "treasure maps" or "shares" in a shipwreck, consider it a red flag. These are classic hallmarks of fraudulent "Spanish treasure" confidence tricks. For verified information on authentic Spanish shipwrecks and salvaged fleets from the 18th century, explore the official records available through the UNESCO Underwater Cultural Heritage database or consult authenticated artifact discoveries documented by the NOAA Office of Ocean Exploration.”

So, I have to ask (of @Crow) where did this document actually come from, and in what context are his questions being asked? I must stress that I am absolutely not questioning his integrity… only the integrity and source of the document itself. I’m also curious as to where the interpretation that the ship was named “San Joseph y Nuestra Señora de la Granada” came from? Like the captain’s name, it’s hand-written in the proforma in a very extravagant cursive script. My OCR checks agreed with “San Joseph y Nuestra Señora” but not with the second part “de la Granada” which it struggled to interpret, offering various other unconvincing possibilities.

Incidentally, the AI answer above also provided a link to a document in the Internet Archive titled “Computerised Index of Spanish Colonial Documents Volume III” from the Spanish Colonial Research Center. The name Antonio Aguado appears three times… but in the context of service records for the Spanish Regiment of Louisiana in 1791 (sergeant), 1792 (sergeant-major) and 1794 (first sergeant).

https://ia802902.us.archive.org/11/items/spanishcolonialr03sanc/spanishcolonialr03sanc.pdf

 

[Crow]

Hello all, some interesting points.

There is an industry of fake documents usual they have a very limited market. But many museums and Libraries indeed have fake artifacts and documents. However, I do not see the value in such a document.

AI is not as great as people imagine. I used AI to help translate below. About as useful as tits on a bull.

AI overview stated.

This document appears to be a 17th-century or 18th-century Spanish manuscript related to colonial history, specifically referencing naval shipping from New Spain (now Mexico)

Content Details: The text describes a "Maestre" (ship master) regarding cargo and permission for a vessel ("Navio") anchored at the Port of San Juan de Ulúa.

Historical Context: Similar documents from this era frequently involve shipping silver or other goods to Spain.

Physical Features: The manuscript features a woodcut illustration of a ship and handwritten signatures or scribal notations.

Historical Rarity: Such manuscripts, often referred to as "Carta Ejecutoria" or shipping manifests, are considered rare historical artifacts of colonial Latin America.

So you see two different AI with different answers..

One suspicion of mine if this was a standardized shipping manifest form? Then there should be other similar documents. Suspiciously, there at this stage appeared to be absent. While this can be seen as a red flag. The fact remains that many millions of documents still exist that have not been physically scanned. To add to this, several post-Spanish colonial countries, desperate for money, sold off documents, some of which are sitting in various university libraries, and others are in private hands.

I tried to find a cross-reference to the names via the Account book of Nicolás Manuel Cranisbro, 1744 - 1746, who was in Veracruz around the same time frame. You can find his account book in the British Museum. Here is a sample of his book below. also hard to read. You may forgive old Crow, as you can understand that I am blind, squinting at old documents.

I have written 1.8 million words since January to last week. Over the last 20 years or so, I have forgotten a few things.
If I were consistent over the last 20 years, I would have two-finger typed about 60 million words. Old Crow forgets things.

From memory, the document was sourced through a bundle of other unrelated documents.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Gentleman: A little digging and prodding of Crow's brain with an electric cattle prod can go a long way.

The source has been identified. The document I posted is a stray image. It was part of four pages. The Bill of Lading for silver on the ship San Joseph y Nuestra Señora de la Granada, 13 November 1744. That vessel was captured by privateer Clarissa. Source: The National Archives, London, England. This papers was sized and went before the courts and thus preserved.

What do we learn from this?

1: We get to see what a real shipping manifest looks like from that time period. As confirmed with another ship using the same printed format at the time.
2: Get an insight into Silver shipping movements around that time from Veracruz.

3: And you cannot trust AI. If anything, it goes into cautionary default when not able to answer. Or waffle off onto something unrelated.

Bill of lading for silver on the ship Le Fort de Nantes, 17 August 1746, below

Bill of lading for silver sent by Antonio Joseph Ruiz on the ship San Luís Almiranta, 20 November 1744 below

These bills of lading are probably rare; these were taken from captured ships from Veracruz. When ships sink, they go down with the ship. What happens to the documents after a successful voyage? Have many survived, and are their copies still in Veracuz, or have they been lost to poor record keeping and rot, and vermin destruction?

But as you see, finding and reading them provide unquie set of challenges.

Crow

 

[Red-Coat]

Thanks @Crow. Yes, I agree about AI. Sometimes it gives useful information that can lead you in the right direction, but often feeds you a load of bunk. I didn’t think to check British Admiralty records via our National Archives. The actual record describes documents related to the capture of the ship:

Description: War of the Austrian Succession.
28 november 1744
Captured ship: San Joseph y Nuestra Senora de la Granada (master Juan Francisco de Landa).
History: a Spanish ship (120 tons, 20 guns, 48 men and 27 passengers), bound from Vera Cruz, Mexico, via Havana to Cadiz, laden with tobacco, snuff, sugar, cocoa, and 75,000 dollars in gold and silver; taken on 26 April/7 May 1745 near Tenerife by the privateer Koulikan (Joseph Barker commanding) and brought into Lisbon.

There is an additional record for the privateer Koulikan, with the Spanish prize incorrectly described as San Joseph y Nuestra Senora de la Granard and the master as Juan Francisco de Lama.

The Koulikan (often recorded as Kouli Kan) was sailing under British ‘letters of marque’, legally authorizing Barker to raid enemy commerce during the War of the Austrian Succession (1740-1748) and particularly to harass or capture French and Spanish vessels. Spain and her allies opposed the right of Maria Theresa to inherit the Austrian throne, while Britain, the Dutch Republic and Hanover supported it. Portugal didn’t participate in the war, so Lisbon was a neutral port.

 

[Digger54]

Excuse me for displaying my ignorance which comes quite easily for me, but my curiosity has the best of me. Appearing at the top of some of the documents there is an image of a ship. Is this original art that appeared on blank forms? Appears almost as if they were part of the printing press that printed them.

 

[Red-Coat]

Excuse me for displaying my ignorance which comes quite easily for me, but my curiosity has the best of me. Appearing at the top of some of the documents there is an image of a ship. Is this original art that appeared on blank forms? Appears almost as if they were part of the printing press that printed them.

Yes, you have it right. The forms were pre-printed in bulk and had blank spaces in which the name and master of the ship, its cargo, the date and other details would be hand-written. Different ports had their own designs and they also changed with time.

 

[Digger54]

Yes, you have it right. The forms were pre-printed in bulk and had blank spaces in which the name and master of the ship, its cargo, the date and other details would be hand-written. Different ports had their own designs and they also changed with time.

Thank you! I find the art work a fascinating chance to see how the period art designer visualized the ships. I imagine it would be a fairly accurate rendering.

 

[Red-Coat]

... I find the art work a fascinating chance to see how the period art designer visualized the ships. I imagine it would be a fairly accurate rendering.

I agree, and it probably is a fairly accurate depiction.

It's a 'carrack' ('nao' in Spanish), widely used by the Spanish in trans-Atlantic trade with the Americas until the late 17th Century when the Galleon had largely superseded it.

Given the document dates to 1744, it may not be a contemporary ship and is perhaps intended as a representation of La Santa María de la Inmaculada Concepción, the three-masted carrack that served as Christopher Columbus’ flagship during his first expedition to the Americas in 1492.