Sims Elys "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

[Cubfan64]

Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

While it's true that Sims Ely was one of the closest sources we have to the firsthand accounts of the Lost Dutchman Mine, how accurate is his book really?

I'm not convinced that at Ely's advanced age, his potential state of mind (based on where he was living while writing the book) and whatever editorial work may have been done on the manuscript prior to publishing, that I can believe all the "facts" it states.

My intention here is NOT to discredit Mr. Ely as a liar - all I'm trying to do is find what I believe are inaccuracies in the book. At the end, I feel as though I'll be able to weigh not only the extent of the inaccuracies, but also weigh how important the inaccuracies are. If it turns out there aren't that many, or they're primarly superficial, it'll go a long way towards making me feel better about trusting other parts of the book that can't be confirmed.

The only things I plan to point out are statements that can be proven to be inaccurate - if anyone wants to add something I've missed, I just ask that you also post the source you used to to determine the inaccuracy.

Discussions surrounding the inaccuracies listed are fine as well, but I'm going to try to keep a pretty tight leash on this and hopefully I can work with the moderators to keep it flowing and not get off track. I may just keep editing this first post with additional inaccuracies as I find them - that may be the best way to keep it all in one place.

The book I am using is "The Lost Dutchman Mine - the fabulous story of the seven decade search for the hidden treasure in the superstition mountains of arizona" by Sim's Ely - second printing 1954 - William Morrow and Co. New York.
________________________

1) Page 3 - speaking about Adolph Ruth, "In government service in Washington all his working years..."

Based on Adolph Ruth's personnel file obtained in 1991 from the National Personnel Records Center - St. Louis Missouri the following is a general chronology as put together by a researcher I know personally:

1903 - obtained Dr. of Vet Science in Kansas City
1903 - began working for Bureau of Animal Industry, Fort Worth, TX
1906 - Meat Inspector - Kansas City, MO
1917 - Meat Inspector - Richmond, VA
1917 - Hog cholera control - College Park, MD
1917 - Meat Inspector again - Richmond, VA
1919/1920 time frame - accident in California causing disability
1920 - Charles Town, WV
1921 - Wheeling, WV
1923 - left the Burea of Animal Industry

His mailing address over the last few years was often that of his daughter Stella Hawkins in Washington DC

2) Page 3 - "Besides his wife, his family consisted of two sons....All four members of the Ruth family..."

Adolph Ruth and his wife Clara had 2 sons (Earl - born ~1896 and Erwin - born ~1886) and one daughter (Stella - born ~1885)

3) page 7 - where was Adolph Ruth's camp really located? "...Since the camp was little more than a quarter of a mile from the canyon head and its walls were visible in detail, it was necessary only to search lower down."

The actual location of Willow Spring itself is ~1.8 miles from the "canyon head." So is Ely correct and the true location of where Ruth camped was NOT directly at Willow Spring, or was he off by quite a bit in his distance estimate?

 

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[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

<Cubfan wrote>

More to follow...

Looking forward to it! <Tag post actually, but couldn't resist!>

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

i think it was a good book .. some of the details are wrong but thats how he was given the data .. a good read and i enjoyed the book ..

 

[Springfield]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

i think it was a good book .. some of the details are wrong but thats how he was given the data .. a good read and i enjoyed the book ..

Same can be said for any number of 'lost mine' books. Interesting escape reading, but nothing to risk years of your life on.

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

i think it was a good book .. some of the details are wrong but thats how he was given the data .. a good read and i enjoyed the book ..

Same can be said for any number of 'lost mine' books. Interesting escape reading, but nothing to risk years of your life on.

unless you know how much is true ....lol

 

[SGnAZ]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

I thought Erwin Ruth was a meat inspector not his dad.Or they both were and I have my "Ruths" mixed up.

 

[Springfield]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

i think it was a good book .. some of the details are wrong but thats how he was given the data .. a good read and i enjoyed the book ..

Same can be said for any number of 'lost mine' books. Interesting escape reading, but nothing to risk years of your life on.

unless you know how much is true ....lol

That's the point. A number of these books have some basis in fact - that's why people jump on the wagon. The problem is, if the legends are anywhere near true to begin with (some are, many are based on other events or completely fabricated), then you'd have to be completely naive to think that you can buy a book, read an old newspaper article, follow an internet forum, talk to a lifetime searcher, decipher a public domain map, etc., and put yourself in a position to locate one of them. Sure, you might be able to position yourself in the correct mountain range (or not), but that and a couple bucks is only worth a cup of joe. The only information worth your effort is PROPRIETARY, i.e. directly from the principal. All else is hearsay and subject to increasing degrees of disinformation, either intentionally or not.

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

i think it was a good book .. some of the details are wrong but thats how he was given the data .. a good read and i enjoyed the book ..

Same can be said for any number of 'lost mine' books. Interesting escape reading, but nothing to risk years of your life on.

unless you know how much is true ....lol

My advise is to always when researching any book or subject matter (Read between) the lines
Meaning

Discern a meaning which isn't made obvious or explicit.

Origin

This expression derives from a simple form of cryptography, in which a hidden meaning was conveyed by secreting it between lines of text. It originated in the mid 19th century and soon became used to refer to the deciphering of any coded or unclear form of communication, whether written or not.
Get my drift? Cactus sais if "I was any more cryptic" he doubts Simon Sing would be able to figure it out.

 

[Springfield]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

.... Discern a meaning which isn't made obvious or explicit..... Get my drift?...

This is where you get yourself in trouble. You will not break a cypher that is meant for the sole use of a group to which you are not a member. You may think you know the interpretation, but the end result is that you will remain empty-handed. The people who were smart enough to possess great quantities of precious metals and other things of value were also smart enough to keep it out of the hands of the rabble who are not, and never will be, privy to the information needed to recover the loot.

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

.... Discern a meaning which isn't made obvious or explicit..... Get my drift?...

This is where you get yourself in trouble. You will not break a cypher that is meant for the sole use of """"((((a group to which you are not a member.))))"""" You may think you know the interpretation, but the end result is that you will remain empty-handed. The people who were smart enough to possess great quantities of precious metals and other things of value were also smart enough to """"((((keep it out of the hands of the rabble who are not, and never will be, privy to the information needed to recover the "loot."))))""""

"Loot, Gold, Wealth, Riches, Groups, Members"
"(This Is Not Just About Gold.)" This is not just about gold. This is about (solving the lost dutchman and the peralta maps) The gold would be great but solving the puzzle is the real treasure (And even greater Sharing that Treasure with the entire world.)

 

[Springfield]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

"(This Is Not Just About Gold.)" This is not just about gold. This is about (solving the lost dutchman and the peralta maps) The gold would be great but solving the puzzle is the real treasure (And even greater Sharing that Treasure with the entire world.)

Are you kidding? If the cache was, say, 500 pounds of old horseshoes, complete with map, deathbed confessions, et al, do you really believe there would be any interest - you included?

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

"(This Is Not Just About Gold.)" This is not just about gold. This is about (solving the lost dutchman and the peralta maps) """"((((The gold would be great))))"""" but solving the puzzle is the real treasure (And even greater Sharing that Treasure with the entire world.)

Are you kidding? If the cache was, say, 500 pounds of old horseshoes, complete with map, deathbed confessions, et al, do you really believe there would be any interest - you included?

""""((((The gold would be great))))"""" Quoted by John V. Kemm

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

I thought Erwin Ruth was a meat inspector not his dad.Or they both were and I have my "Ruths" mixed up.

Hi Steve, I don't have my notes in front of me at the moment regarding Erwin Ruth, but Erwin followed in his father's footsteps at least for a little while in the veterinary medicine field. I got the distinct impression that he wasn't all that interested in doing the type of REAL work it entailed by reading his records which were less than stellar.

Erwin had ALOT of occupations in his life - I'll try to look up what I have documented and get back to you. I recall him being the head of the narcotics division for the Boston FBI, he ran a booking agency for vaudeville acts in Canada, he supposedly either helped eradicate ticks in Texas/Mexico, or helped inspect/monitor the beef being sold during the Mexican Revolution, he appears to have been interested magensium mine holdings, and a few other such things. Someone (I don't recall if it was Clay Worst or not) described him in the days he was in AZ during his father's disappearance as a "dandy." I'd say from what I've read and what I know of that word at that time, it's a pretty accurate description.

 

[BILL96]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Cub,
You pose an interesting question, how accurate is Ely's book?. My question is how can the accuracy be determined until the LDM is found and then the puzzle "reversed engineered" so to speak. As it stands his book is at best just a second, third and fourth hand accounting, are we judging the accuracy of what he claims he was told?. I just keep thinking that we may not be able to really judge the accuracy of his story until the LDM is truly found and the ore verified until then it is just good fiction, a good "historical novel" based on a lost treasure story form old wild west! because until something is found no one really knows the truth is or how accurate anything is.
Just my thoughts
Bill

 

[ancientones]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

I question the concept that 'ore' can be the only proof to the LDM. What if someone found an 'error' to a major clue,
and based on the 'correct' clue, went to a different location where he found most all of the clues related to this site?
If all the Indians, Miners, Dutchman, Deering and Ruth clues could all be placed in one location, within view of each other,
in the places described, shapes as described, would ore still be needed? If the 'symbols and trail' Ruth looked for
on a hill between 2 washes, with an arrow and mine symbol pointing to the mine, the mule trail leading right to the mine,
were revealed, would the ore be needed? If one could match the Peralta sketch map of the Sombrero mine to this canyon,
the trail passing by the Sombrero hill down past the Dutchman cave into the canyon, the brushy side canyon, would the ore
still be the only proof?
I am not trying to be cynical, but the 'bar' seems to be set too high. If you go into the shaft and see gold, you will put
a burden on your shoulders that you cannot carry alone, a life changing event. Unless going public you will be putting
your life in the same situation as those looking for the mine 100 years ago. Maybe someday technology will advance
enough that a 'quartz sample' from the tailings pile can be verified the same as gold. That might remove the need for ore
and all the risked involved to get it and keep it.
For 'reverse engineering', I agree. If someone new the location of the Sombrero mine, 'several' of the Peralta Stones would
'match up'. My favorite is the 'Water over Gold' site, its not in the Wilderness. Now if we can get under 100 degrees...
Take care

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Cub,
You pose an interesting question, how accurate is Ely's book?. My question is how can the accuracy be determined until the LDM is found and then the puzzle "reversed engineered" so to speak. As it stands his book is at best just a second, third and fourth hand accounting, are we judging the accuracy of what he claims he was told?. I just keep thinking that we may not be able to really judge the accuracy of his story until the LDM is truly found and the ore verified until then it is just good fiction, a good "historical novel" based on a lost treasure story form old wild west! because until something is found no one really knows the truth is or how accurate anything is.
Just my thoughts
Bill

Bill - I understand your question, and in that context you're right that only finding the LDM and "reverse engineering" everything will we ever be able to connect enough dots to figure out who's story was the closest to the truth.

All I'm really doing is carrying out an exercise to satisfy in my own mind how much of Ely's story I'm willing to accept as "gospel." You're absolutely correct that his book is a 2nd, 3rd, etc... account, but as others have said, it SHOULD be one of the closest sources to the actual truth to the stories as we have. What I'm trying to do is use evidence to form an opinion in my own mind as to how much credence I can give it.

In many cases you're correct that what I'm questioning are the things he claims he was told, but that's the best I can do. I know there have been discussions before about Ely and his book/account and one of the things strong supporters point to is that based on Ely's personality and his experience as a newspaper editor, he would be a meticulous note taker and not stand for errors and mistakes in his book. I'm trying to decide if that's a valid theory.

I have a lot going on in real life these days, but I will continue adding to this as I'm able. If anyone else runs across inaccuracies, please feel free to post them along with valid proof that the information is untrue.

By the way - this whole idea could prove to be an exercise in futility and I'm willing to accept that possibliy as it's just something I've wanted to do for some time now. Once this is done, I plan to compare and contrast Ely's book with the Bark Notes as well.

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

I question the concept that 'ore' can be the only proof to the LDM. What if someone found an 'error' to a major clue,
and based on the 'correct' clue, went to a different location where he found most all of the clues related to this site?
If all the Indians, Miners, Dutchman, Deering and Ruth clues could all be placed in one location, within view of each other,
in the places described, shapes as described, would ore still be needed? If the 'symbols and trail' Ruth looked for
on a hill between 2 washes, with an arrow and mine symbol pointing to the mine, the mule trail leading right to the mine,
were revealed, would the ore be needed? If one could match the Peralta sketch map of the Sombrero mine to this canyon,
the trail passing by the Sombrero hill down past the Dutchman cave into the canyon, the brushy side canyon, would the ore
still be the only proof?
I am not trying to be cynical, but the 'bar' seems to be set too high. If you go into the shaft and see gold, you will put
a burden on your shoulders that you cannot carry alone, a life changing event. Unless going public you will be putting
your life in the same situation as those looking for the mine 100 years ago. Maybe someday technology will advance
enough that a 'quartz sample' from the tailings pile can be verified the same as gold. That might remove the need for ore
and all the risked involved to get it and keep it.
For 'reverse engineering', I agree. If someone new the location of the Sombrero mine, 'several' of the Peralta Stones would
'match up'. My favorite is the 'Water over Gold' site, its not in the Wilderness. Now if we can get under 100 degrees...
Take care

You have my express personal seal of approval by me John V. Kemm shouting "bravo."

 

[gollum]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

Hey,

I don't get over here that often due to high rate of whack jobs, but I will get in on this one.

I have been guilty of being overly critical on Sims Ely, but without doubt, there is no better starting place for any Dutch Hunter than his book.

EVERY (and I mean EVERY) Lost Dutchman Book since 1953 takes something from Sims Ely. Being a newspaper man, he knew how to interview people in order to get what information he wanted. He and Jim Bark were the only people who had several interviews with both Julia Thomas and Rhiney Petrasch (Bark was the only one that interviewed Petrasch). I can imagine one of the things he was mainly looking for in his successive interviews was any changes in the stories told.

His age and location when writing the book, don't have THAT much impact on me. When people get old and their memories start to go, they tend to remember things from their long ago past like the day before. Especially if they were things that person considered important. Also, he had all of Jim Bark's Notes to go by if his memory needed refreshing on any particular subject. His history as a newspaperman (I believe) also aided in keeping his mind sharp.

Personally, I believe that most any inaccuracies in the book were on purpose. Probably some agreement with the Bark Family in return for his use of the Bark Notes to help write his book. I know I'm not the first to say so, but my thought nonetheless.

One thing you can do to verify the accuracy (or inaccuracy) of Ely is to read books by those that came after and used his book as reference. Take for example Curt Gentry/Glenn MaGill (The Killer Mountains); a lot of stuff written about by Ely is verified by MaGill.

Now, would I don a backpack and strike off into the Supers with nothing but a copy of Ely's Books under my arm? No. Would I consider Ely's Book PRIME research material and the closest thing to firsthand information we have? Yes.

Best-Mike

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

well stated but thats also why your still reading about it .... lol

Ely's book is a prime place to start ,, but i for one like to learn from first hand and then after i have some facts go back and read as many books as i can ,, but its funny you say the killer mts and ely's book .. those pluse the hiker's guide are some of the best all around data IMHO

to be totally honest the only thing i did not like about ely's book is he focused on one theory and stuck with that theory even if the evidence did not subport it ...

the other thing i did not care fore , was two people in the book lied to him and he had no idea they did ...i dont think i would take a back pack full of books out there ..water and some good out will power would take you anywhere you want to go ..

i will say i know why the LDM was not found ... and ely's book vs the killer mt is a good example of why ..

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Sim's Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" - inaccuracies

I question the concept that 'ore' can be the only proof to the LDM. What if someone found an 'error' to a major clue,
and based on the 'correct' clue, went to a different location where he found most all of the clues related to this site?
If all the Indians, Miners, Dutchman, Deering and Ruth clues could all be placed in one location, within view of each other,
in the places described, shapes as described, would ore still be needed? If the 'symbols and trail' Ruth looked for
on a hill between 2 washes, with an arrow and mine symbol pointing to the mine, the mule trail leading right to the mine,
were revealed, would the ore be needed? If one could match the Peralta sketch map of the Sombrero mine to this canyon,
the trail passing by the Sombrero hill down past the Dutchman cave into the canyon, the brushy side canyon, would the ore
still be the only proof?
I am not trying to be cynical, but the 'bar' seems to be set too high. If you go into the shaft and see gold, you will put
a burden on your shoulders that you cannot carry alone, a life changing event. Unless going public you will be putting
your life in the same situation as those looking for the mine 100 years ago. Maybe someday technology will advance
enough that a 'quartz sample' from the tailings pile can be verified the same as gold. That might remove the need for ore
and all the risked involved to get it and keep it.
For 'reverse engineering', I agree. If someone new the location of the Sombrero mine, 'several' of the Peralta Stones would
'match up'. My favorite is the 'Water over Gold' site, its not in the Wilderness. Now if we can get under 100 degrees...
Take care

In a word, respectfully YES; the ore is absolutely necessary; for all those so-called "clues" you have referenced, we can not prove that any of them absolutely, un-arguably, came from the mouth of Jacob Waltz himself. All is second hand, third hand or worse. The ore on the other hand, is a geological evidence that is scientifically provable. You can find a half dozen (or MORE) different sites in the Superstitions where some of the various "clues" will indeed "fit" and even find old prospect holes and tunnels dug by earlier Dutch-hunters, none of which are the actual Lost Dutchman mine but they dug where they found a spot that "fit" those "clues". Only the ore can settle it, in my opinion. And yes, that is setting the bar high, and it will require effort on the part of the person who wishes to be "the" one who found the LDM, but I for one will not buy anything less.

This next part goes out to ALL; if you want all the honors, glory and fame, however fleeting, of being the person who found the Lost Dutchman mine, including the television interviews, get your face in the newspaper, radio, magazines etc then you are going to have to EARN that honor; it is after all, a lost GOLD MINE, if you really have found the infamous Lost Dutchman, then it will not be too difficult for you to get that ore sample so that a comparison can be done by a geologist.

Santa Fe New Mexican wrote

You have my express personal seal of approval by me John V. Kemm shouting "bravo

Wow what a shocker John; so you just believe everyone who claims to have found the Lost Dutchman that comes down the pike without any ore sample to compare with that of Waltz? I remind you that over 100 people have made that same claim, and from what I can tell, at 100 different sites, and only ONE had gold that matched Waltz's gold. If you believe that we ought to just accept such claims without any ore, that is your opinion and you are welcome to it, but I remain respectfully and wholly in disagreement on this point.

If you (or whom-ever) has found what you think is the LDM, and you say it is impossible to get an ore specimen, then I am sorry to have to be the one to tell you this (I am being your friend by doing so, some of us are just too nice to tell you as they don't want to hurt your feelings) but it will be impossible to prove that what you found IS the LDM. Gold ore is the key, no amount of clues, ESP, stone maps or what have you will ever prove the case.

Oh and one more little reminder; Jacob Waltz had no stone maps and he was able to get to the mine several times, and he never mentioned one to his friends, in fact he tried to tell them how to get there. If the stone maps were a necessity, don't you think he would have at least told his friends to get those stone maps? The Peralta stones don't even have the name Peralta on them amigos.
Oroblanco