✅ SOLVED Small button with fouled anchor

[baytraderbutch]

Can anyone help me identify this button. Its brass and has the remains of a ring on the back. It was found in an area where I have been finding coins from the mid 1800s up to modern coins. The material is a dredge pile from the MS Sound. There was a naval battle just days before the Battle Of New Orleans near here and activity during the civil war. Any help would be appreciated. This is my first post with a photo so lets see how it worked out. The button is very dark with a lot a wear or so it appears.
Thanks

 

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[Iron Patch]

This is why the ID might shed some light. I think French Navy was mentioned (along with others), does that fit your references? (I thought you may have already said by now though??)

Most definitely not French. I'd bet my detector, house, and life on that one.

 

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[CRUSADER]

Most definitely not French. I'd bet my detector, house, and life on that one.

That what I thought you would say, so analysing the below, what is the conclusion?

'I have looked at the (not very good) image of your naval button again and have just noticed that that the anchor is not 'fouled'. This feature for the most part eliminates the Royal Navy. There is the odd instance the first Surgeons at Sea official issue shows an anchor without the rope, Secretary to the Commander-in-Chief the same (although with a crown above the anchor). THEREFORE the pattern that you illustrate with the design INCISED is more than likely to apply to a Continental navy and no doubt used by the lower ranks of some of the Mercantile Marine Companies' personnel.

Certainly early Royal French naval personnel c1770-1790 used a similar button.
As I mentioned earlier this pattern both incised and in relief was used on ladies and childrens' fashion clothing in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
Printed works on the subject are very few and scarce. The two best Royal Naval articles are those of the late Captain A Rowand DSO (Connoisseur Magazine 1927 under the heading 'Miscellaneous' Some Early English Sea Service Buttons). Then 'Naval Buttons' by Michael Lewis, 'The Mariner's Mirror' Volume 31 No3 1945. This is extensive and quite excellent. It was based on Rowand's collection and corrected some of Rowands attributions. However Lewis failed to recognise the importance of back marks as a guide to dating, so again there are some incorrect attributions. A much later article by one Barker (Greenwich) is hopeless and indeed useless.
Various other contibutions on Mercantile buttons and other Navies have appeared in Button Lines (mag of the British Button Society) over the years but that is about the lot.
There is and always will be confusion over the plain anchor button, as it was and still is such a universal theme, as indeed you remark upon.'

 

[Silver Searcher]

Isn't this the one in question, second row down.. Revolutionary Loyalist Royal Navy 1812 Military Buttons Revolutionary Loyalist and 1812 Photo Gallery by Richard Eldon at pbase.com

SS

 

[CRUSADER]

Isn't this the one in question, second row down.. Revolutionary Loyalist Royal Navy 1812 Military Buttons Revolutionary Loyalist and 1812 Photo Gallery by Richard Eldon at pbase.com

SS

Very close, other than mine (& others I think) have slanty lines on the anchor bar & not those dots.

 

[Iron Patch]

That what I thought you would say, so analysing the below, what is the conclusion?

'I have looked at the (not very good) image of your naval button again and have just noticed that that the anchor is not 'fouled'. This feature for the most part eliminates the Royal Navy. There is the odd instance the first Surgeons at Sea official issue shows an anchor without the rope, Secretary to the Commander-in-Chief the same (although with a crown above the anchor). THEREFORE the pattern that you illustrate with the design INCISED is more than likely to apply to a Continental navy and no doubt used by the lower ranks of some of the Mercantile Marine Companies' personnel.

Certainly early Royal French naval personnel c1770-1790 used a similar button.
As I mentioned earlier this pattern both incised and in relief was used on ladies and childrens' fashion clothing in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
Printed works on the subject are very few and scarce. The two best Royal Naval articles are those of the late Captain A Rowand DSO (Connoisseur Magazine 1927 under the heading 'Miscellaneous' Some Early English Sea Service Buttons). Then 'Naval Buttons' by Michael Lewis, 'The Mariner's Mirror' Volume 31 No3 1945. This is extensive and quite excellent. It was based on Rowand's collection and corrected some of Rowands attributions. However Lewis failed to recognise the importance of back marks as a guide to dating, so again there are some incorrect attributions. A much later article by one Barker (Greenwich) is hopeless and indeed useless.
Various other contibutions on Mercantile buttons and other Navies have appeared in Button Lines (mag of the British Button Society) over the years but that is about the lot.
There is and always will be confusion over the plain anchor button, as it was and still is such a universal theme, as indeed you remark upon.'

Truth.... he has no idea.

 

[CRUSADER]

Truth.... he has no idea.

If wrong, he's in the majority on that one.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Very close, other than mine (& others I think) have slanty lines on the anchor bar & not those dots.

The Op's clearly has the dots and the V shaped anchor, Iron Patch first response seems to be the correct one.

SS

 

[Iron Patch]

Isn't this the one in question, second row down.. Revolutionary Loyalist Royal Navy 1812 Military Buttons Revolutionary Loyalist and 1812 Photo Gallery by Richard Eldon at pbase.com

SS

Yes, that's definitely the type, but I don't think Richard has any special insight and is just giving the ID of what makes the most sense..... which would be 1812 British Navy because he hunts War of 1812 sites and finds either British and American buttons. About a decade ago I did some 10 day hunts with his detecting partner, so know at least a bit about them and their detecting.

 

[CRUSADER]

The Op's clearly has the dots and the V shaped anchor, Iron Patch first response seems to be the correct one.

SS

Now I look closely it does, its all the other posted examples that have slants, I'm still none the wiser.

 

[Iron Patch]

If wrong, he's in the majority on that one.

Yep, I still don't discount the original answer but would be nice to prove it.

 

[CRUSADER]

Yep, I still don't discount the original answer but would be nice to prove it.

You won't think it would be quite as hard as it is. With the amount of them found, they are not a super rare find, oh well I give in, & maybe the answer will come one day.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Yes, that's definitely the type, but I don't think Richard has any special insight and is just giving the ID of what makes the most sense..... which would be 1812 British Navy because he hunts War of 1812 sites and finds either British and American buttons. About a decade ago I did some 10 day hunts with his detecting partner, so know at least a bit about them and their detecting.

I hate to say it but the Colchester site has one listed as the same, but it mentions the fouled anchor type, this none fouled type is what's confusing me, or are they just branded in the same category as serving naval.

SS

 

[Iron Patch]

You won't think it would be quite as hard as it is. With the amount of them found, they are not a super rare find, oh well I give in, & maybe the answer will come one day.

I know a UK guy and wouldn't be surprised if he found 50 of these. Even myself, I've never counted but would think at least 12-15, maybe as much as 20. Plus as SS's link shows they are dug around the War of 1812 sites in Ontario. It was from a guy in that area who was calling them Provincial Marine.

 

[Iron Patch]

I hate to say it but the Colchester site has one listed as the same, but it mentions the fouled anchor type, this none fouled type is what's confusing me, or are they just branded in the same category as serving naval.

SS

If this was a court the Colchester page would have already been thrown out.

 

[Silver Searcher]

If this was a court the Colchester page would have already been thrown out.

Yes, about as real as there organised digs.

SS

 

[Iron Patch]

Yes, about as real as there organised digs.

SS

You won't get any argument from me.... unless I go there and have 3 gold coins to post for the banner.

 

[baytraderbutch]

You know guys the first thing I thought of was that this button was just from some nautical clothing probably dating late 1800s or early 1900s. That seems to be time period of the other things I have been finding. I was further convinced by the fact that we are a coastal town and have had an active Yacht club that dates back to that time frame as well. I sure appreciate all the discussion.

 

[CRUSADER]

You know guys the first thing I thought of was that this button was just from some nautical clothing probably dating late 1800s or early 1900s. That seems to be time period of the other things I have been finding. I was further convinced by the fact that we are a coastal town and have had an active Yacht club that dates back to that time frame as well. I sure appreciate all the discussion.

Its highly unlikely to post date 1830, but maybe one day we will get a full attribution. I've had things for years before I got to the bottom of it.