Spain suing Odyssey...

My Opinion:
I think that this TOPIC needs to come to an end. There are some very hard feeling being built here.
Peg Leg
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Do you know why?

Because when you talk about subject where involve multicultural issues many people in this country will feel unhappy due most people had no learn to accept certain reality about our origin. I agree with you Peg leg.

Amona
 

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Amona, I haven't read any but the last 2 posts on this page. Here is my take on Odyssey and Spain. If the wreck was in Spanish waters, are they entitled to a percentage of the wreck ? Yes, without a doubt.

If it is a Spanish Wreck not in their waters ? Absolutely NO. You seem to forget that Spain enslaved natives from other countries to mine the gold, silver and emeralds that Spain plundered from those Countries. I would think that if anyone was entitled to a percentage of Spains wrecks in other countries waters, it shouldn't be Spain, it should be the Countries that Spain Plundered. Just my Opinion.
 

hmmm
peg leg i dissagree, this should not end and will probobly top the 20000 view mark befor it ends.
 

why the treasure net member who was at the metal detectorist meeting who said it ---- JUST THOUGHT THAT--- HE "POSTED" HIS IDEAS OR VIEW----HE WAS WRONG GET IT? ----geez oh pete even otherWize welll meaning folks make a "mistake" or think the wrong thing at times---- leys say I had "attended" one of the the many "open house" type meet and greet meetings and took a few photos --- then posted on T NET saying odyssey found atlantis---would you be saying---"why would he say it ---unless they DID find atlantis"----Ivan
 

Old man

If it is a Spanish Wreck not in their waters ? Absolutely NO. You seem to forget that Spain enslaved natives from other countries to mine the gold, silver and emeralds that Spain plundered from those Countries.
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Let me entitle better

Spaniard: (1500-1800's) They exploited, enslave and Kill native American in Central and South America just for gold,....that's true

Anglo (1622-1860) The kill native American here in United State just plunder them theirs lands

European (before 1492) They order to burn,torture and Kill anyone that doesn't confess to be Catholic

Year 2007: Some people show up those story to justify issues like "Odyseey" vs. Spain.

winter-2006-07: If Odyseey searched the H.M. Sussex in Spain waters of the way that they did, maybe under the same principle or idea about what the spaniard did here in america against the native american,they have (Odyseey) enough reason to fail.(of course, they did). Still I agree with Peg Leg.

Amona
 

who enslaved the people and exploited them 500 years or so ago is irrelevant in this topic. All empires exploited those they enveloped... the Romans, Turks, Brits, Spanish, US (and that isn't the whole list). It makes no difference where it gold initially came from... "To the victor goes the spoils".

The crux of the issue is the current salvage laws and the rights of the parties. Who owns it depends on where the wrecks are found (Aside from the heirs of the owners...) if a wreck is found in a country's territorial waters - it is the country's. In international waters - the country where the wreck called home and the salvors. This entire debate hinges on only one thing... where was the wreck found. Strongarming by Spain, sneaky practices by Odyssey... all in the long run are irrelevant.

If the wreck is in International waters, then Spain is flat out wrong and even if they are right, the majority of what they have done over the last week is illegal. They should have allowed the courts to work, or gotten permission from panama to seize the OMEX vessel... or a number of other things.

If the wreck is in Spanish waters... the opposite applies. Just about everything OMEX has done is fraudulent and illegal.

But from day one, OMEX has stated that the wreck is in international waters. All their statements say that, and all of the court documents (signed under oath) say that. Without some proof which shows otherwise, which we don't have, we MUST assume that this information is correct.

Spain boarding and holding the OMEX ship is nothing more than in illegal action based on speculation. Unless they have PROOF (not suspicion and speculation) that OMEX has done something illegal, they have no right to arrest that ship. Even if they did have proof (which i believe is highly unlikely), they had no right to arrest the ship in INTERNATIONAL waters.

What spain has done is like the police (US) arresting one of us, ransacking our homes, seizing our assets, and violating our rights, based on nothing more than a suspicion that we did something wrong. We (and most of the other civilized countries in the world - including Spain) have laws that protect us and our fellow citizens from this type of action. It does not justify a search and seizure based on what is found (if anything)... The laws protect us from the invasive nature of those searches and seizure when there is no cause. There are international laws that protect ships on the high seas... and Spain has clearly disregarded those by seizing a ship in international waters without the permission of its home country.

When the location of the wreck is revealed (I think the court date is 7/23 - so watch for it), someone should be doing some major apologizing.

steve
 

Tom

Regardless if the ship is not a Sovereign Ship or it is in international waters someone still owns it, unless it was registered as abandoned which is unlikely. OMR have to prove abandonment not the owners prove it is still theirs, as it was impossible to salvage a ship or cargo delicately at that depth until just a few years ago let alone find such a position of a ship without the use of Computers and hi-tec gadgets which are really relatively young. OMR have technically taken the cargo without permission, shipped it through one country to another then make the claim it’s theirs (finders keepers), so to anyone who thinks its belongs to them, then you have to make a claim against OMR. Well Spain have done. However until they release the name of the ship then no one including Spain or OMR can claim anything. At this time the cargo recovered is in limbo until OMR release the name of the vessel.

Salvage law is a very complicated business, even the famous “Lloyds open form” is not as simple as you would imagine. It fact it’s quite complicated to use.

I must admit though that the owners of sunken ships (in shallow water) usually want to forget about the ship rather than continue to claim ownership, it costs a fortune to remove sunken ships. Just ask any of the P&I Clubs who basically control the business these days.

OMR’s find would unlikely be insured so the onus is with the original ships owners and the owners of the cargo.

We will not go into where the cargo came from originally in terms of The New world that’s just too complicated.

Its clear that OMR”S design is to keep the ships name secret and if they are not sure then that’s probably the correct thing to do rather than have to change the name at a later date should their first conclusion prove wrong. However if they have the providence then they should be talking to the real owners of the wreck and cargo as best as they know who they are and negotiate a settlement favorable to all parties (somebody owns the stuff not OMR they have to get the rights to recover and distribute whatever settlement is made if any).

OMR’s actions have in my opinion shown that they are a very shady operator by their method of recovering this cargo and its removal. They have a partner, the UK government who OMR have been working with for a long time on the Sussex Project (OMR”S flagship project) and also a liaison with the Spanish Government over the same ship. I think they would have come out on top if they had made their find known to both parties, not the exact position but a small recovery of artifacts to prove the nationality of the ship as best as known, spent more time on recovering something more identifiable than the coins, a few cannons would have helped a bit and any other things they may have come across. A softly softly approach would have worked better in the long run, but I see that OMR wanted to move to the NASDAQ Board so they used this publicity to their short term advantage. (Very short sighted I think)

They would have then negotiated their position and would not be in the position now of having to spend tons (and I mean tons) of shareholders cash on the in-suing legal battle that they will have to fight. And even later there will be more claims against them and while you may think having the coins in a bank in the US is a good thing, for OMR it would be better if it were still on the seabed for their case, much safer than a bank or government even the US government.

OMR have a very active PR department who aim at the US market in general, the majority of the rest of the world do not think the same way as the American mindset regarding court cases, so there spin doctors are only really getting the US market the rest of us tend to think the US law system is very strange and is only another place to make money regardless of guilt or innocence. (This is not a personal attack on the US but it’s a clear observation by myself who has been expatriate for over 30 years and lived in many countries including the US).

Imaging that you had decided to move from the US to Bermuda and decided to change all your money into gold and take it on a Yacht for a lovely sail from Miami to Bermuda with no insurance. But on route you hit a very big storm and you lose all power the batteries get swamped and you navigation disappears completely, the yacht is blown for a few days and eventually sinks in deep international water with all your gold on it. You survive but have no idea where the boat sank nor could you afford to recover the gold in the deep water anyway.
But have you abandoned the gold or is it still yours forever?????
When does it stop being your property just because you cannot find it?????

If you drop you wallet on the street in Brazil or anywhere it is still yours however unlikely it would be recovered, if some one did find it and gave you back the wallet and contents would you hand over 90% of what was in it as a reward, not a chance.

However if someone found it and pocketed it, then left the country back to the US then said I have your wallet what are you going to do about it. This what OMR have done, only thing is at this time we are unsure of who owns it, but for sure not OMR they will have to get a reward/award whatever.
 

Has anyone ever argued that the MOST the Spanish government should get is 20%, ie. the Royal Quintero? Quinto Real?
 

When the location of the wreck is revealed (I think the court date is 7/23 - so watch for it), someone should be doing some major apologizing.
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I don't think anybody have to apologize, at least, in this forum, everybody here post opinion, you and nobody will stop it because we're part of a great nation called Unite State of America and this nation was settled under the bible, under principle of democracy.I,you(I don't think you can see the reality) and the rest of the world has seen what that company had done, had said.

Two thing will happen on 7/23

Odyssey will reveal the true

or

Odyseey will reveal another 'BS'

If Odyseey lose this trial, the Justice prevail.

If Odyseey win, another O.J. Simpson case-trial will take place one more time in the history of this Great Nation.If you're a lawyer you know that "win" a case it doesn't mean that you're no-guilty.

If Odyseey revail the shipwreck is located in the moon,!!! anyway they're the only one to have to apologize because they broke the Spain' maritime laws, not myself or anybody here.

Amona
 

amona
when I said apologizing... i wasn't talking about anyone here. I was referring either to OMEX or Spain.

steve
 

Cablava, thank you for your well thought out and articulate comments. I must say (not being a lawyer), that you are on the mark concerning International Salvage Law, it is indeed a very complicated issue. I agree with you that Spain has a right to make the claims, and we may soon find out that the UK, and even Portugal may also have a claim as well.

I see from your comments, that your main complaint about the way Odyssey Marine handled this case, in a nut shell is that...

1. OME did not inform either the British or Spanish Governments about the recovery.
2. OME should have left the bulk of the treasure on the ocean floor, and recovered only enough treasure and artifacts to help possibly identify either the vessel or its origin.
3. OME acted in it's own self financial interest, instead of treading softly with Spain.
4. OME did not have the legal right to recover this treasure.

Does that properly reflect your position?

Tom
 

I wish to throw a few things into this debate.
Yes I know that I said that I would not add anything else but I have been doing some serious thinking about my own situation concerning my GHOST SHIP.
I believe that I have discovered what may be one of the CORTEZ ships.
Now we know that the State of Florida considers this ship as ABANDONED since it is in Florida waters.
I have already gotten permission from the Cortez family U.S. Representative to recover this ship but at the same time it could be a SPANISH SHIP but this is going to cause a BIG problem.
The problem concerning the OMEX and Spain is going to touch each and every Treasure Hunters everywhere.
Without permission to recover even a piece of wood to have it dated NO ONE will have any idea about the age of this ship and since it IS in State of Florida waters and the State of Florida does consider any shipwrecks found in their waters as ABANDONED BUT Spain has said that they have NEVER abandoned a single ship. The Cortez does have a LEGAL claim on anything that may be recovered IF it is proved that this IS one of Cortez ships but how can anything be proven if I am not allowed to do a survey and remove ANYTHING that will help identify this wreck.
I am trying to do things the LEGAL and RIGHT way to do this but the State of Florida does not want to hear a thing.
At one time I said to HELL with the State of Florida and contact the Spanish Rep in Washington.
But as time went by I gave this some second thought's guess that a little age does make a person think a little different-sometimes anyway.
I am working on getting a TEAM together to approach this project in a LEGAL and correct way.
I do not want to get Spain involved because of what is going on right now because I know that this will effect EVERY Treasure Hunters in the State of Florida and this is damn sure not the way I want to be remembered.
A lot of you here will debate this GHOST WRECK BUthere are somethings that I have not said and cannot say at thing time. Does that sound like something you are hearing from other places.
This is right here in the U.S. and not in Interational waters.
Peg Leg
 

Hear is a thought , if spain had done there prospecting and found a mine in the new world, then they went through the trouble of mining the silver , smelting it, then making the coins. then they load the coins on a ship, only to have mother nature sink it. 400 years later the ship is found, and the big question is ,who now owns the coins?
 

ah the legall "catch 22"---spain says it never abandons anything--so you "therefore" need "their" approval to "salvage" anything off one of "their" wrecks no matter where its at or what time it sank===thus getting spain a "part" of the action no matter where the wreck sank or at what date----nevermind who's waters its in---thus they have no "respect" for the "national" waters of others--see the "juno" case ---a spanish ship in "nearby" american international waters---however they want you to "respect" their claims in nearby international waters----hah says I----International waters are the "high seas" and no nation or man has "sole claim" to them but the good lord almighty---land lubber fools that have never been to sea are the fools that speak that prattle---the "high seas" and the things in it belong to those who have the "stones" to take from the mighty ocean what they can with gods blessing---AAAARRRGGGGHHHH --- Ivan
 

It also depends on what country you find a Spanish shipwreck. Ecuador currently has two treasure hunting companies excavating Spanish wrecks in their waters and not one word of protest from Spain. Isn't this contradictory?
 

hmmm and ivan... most of those questions will be answered by the court system, and is dependant on international salvage law.

Compare it to "adverse possession" here in the US. Say you own a piece of property, eg, a vacation home, or a cabin in the woods, and you never get a chance to use it. 10 years goes by (20 in some jurisdicitons), and you havent been there at all. Finally have a chance to get down and use your vacation home, and when you get there, you discover someone has moved into your place, has been maintaining it, and telling everyone he owns it. Are you still the rightful owner or is he? Technically you both have a claim, you are the owner of record, while he has maintained open and notorious control of the premesis for the requisite period of time. The determination of who "legally" owns the property, then becomes one for the courts, and depends on the law and the facts surrounding the incident. The original "owner" cannot evict or throw out the "new owner", and neither can the new owner keep the original one off the property... It becomes a legal canundrum that is not easily signed... and someone WILL lose, even though both believe they are right under the law.

SWR, you say that OMEX should apologize for continuing the drama because there is nothing they can say on the 23rd that they can't say now. That isn't the way our legal system works. They likely need to gather people, documents, reports and the like, probably numbering in the thousands of pages, and provide copies to all involved. Everything in the legal system is documented. That is why we have time limits (usually 20, 30, 45 or 60 days) for requests for production and the like. In the grand scope of things... this entire process has progressed with lightning speed ( ;D ). The average, simple lawsuit in federal court takes between 2 and 7 years to reach trial. Here, we have a complicated legal and factual issue, with parties, many of whom are heavily invested in the outcome. For this to make it into court just over 2 months after the treasure was reported, and adverse claims filed is nothing short of outstanding.

I agree partially with Cablava. This is a phenomenally complicated issue that is not likeley to be easily resolved.

steve
 

no because spain is either in on the deal or they know that the "stuff" came from ecudor in the first place---kinda hard to "protest" someone "recovering" silver and gold taken from their country in the first place ---that spain basically got by forced labor mining ---when the wreck is in their country to boot---either spain is in on ithe salvage or they are afraid to "push" the issue for fear that the courts will say "the silver and gold rightfully belongs to the countries it was "taken" from originally"---and where would that leave spain legally ?----screwed thats where---spain thinks better to lose one or two ships than all of them legally--so they keep their mouths shut on those wrecks---Ivan
 

Curious how it worked back then.
did spain own any land in the new world in 1622?
 

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