Spanish Treasure Bars Book Question

[gollum]

Hello All,

Since the greatest majority of my searching and researching pertains to Land Treasures (Lost Mines, Hidden Caches, etc), I don't venture too often into the Shipwreck Forums. Now our paths have crossed, and I need a little help if y'all don't mind.

Several years ago, I was researching one aspect of a Jesuit Treasure Legend. One symbol I have seen repeated MANY times on Jesuit Treasure Bars found on land is the "Cross & V". I have good (the best) sources for Jesuit Historical Stuff; Father John O'Malley SJ, who is probably the most renowned (living) scholar of early Jesuit History at Georgetown University. Even he had no idea what the symbol meant (at least that is what he said). The best he could offer was that possibly the "V" stood for The Virgin Mary. Here are a few examples:



That symbol has haunted me for many years. I HATE not being able to figure things out! HAHAHA I actually do have a few ideas on it, but there has never been anything found in writing that describes it. The main reason I believe it has haunted me, is because another famous Jesuit Historian (the late Father Charles Polzer SJ) used to poopoo any bars that were supposed to have been Jesuit in origin. He said that since the Jesuit Order had no wealth or treasure, the bars MUST be fake! So, not only am I not able to figure the meaning of the symbol, there was the guy that was in a position to know about this, saying they were all fakes. Were they REALLY all fakes?

NO! They are not all fakes. I personally know the provenance for the bars in the last two pictures:

1. Attributed directly to Padre Kino, and belongs to a gentleman in Tucson, Az. Don't personally know him, and can't attest (personally) to its authenticity.

2. A 1961 picture of a table full of silver bars that were being sold by a Yaqui Indian, who said they were recovered from a mule train massacre site in Mexico. Don't have any personal involvement, and don't know any of the people involved. I can't attest to the authenticity of these bars either.

3. This is one of 1028 (yes, one thousand and twenty-eight) silver bars that were found West of Highway 19 between Tucson and Nogales, Az. These bars were found by Chuck Kenworthy (and The Quest). These bars, I will vouch for as authentic.

4. These bars were found by Ron Quinn (of Tucson, Az), his brother, their treasure hunting expert friend, and their engineer friend in 1983 (they were written about in TREASURE! Magazine in August 1986:


I know Ron Quinn, and I will personally vouch for the authenticity of these bars. Funny thing is....these bars were found in fairly close proximity to the silver bars in #3. I believe they are related (but that is another story).

Cut to about a year ago. I was looking through my copy of "Spanish Treasure Bars From New World Shipwrecks". I was looking in the section about the Atocha, and was floored when I took a close look at the pic at the top of page 59:



It describes this as one of the most important finds of the entire Atocha Story. It was not taken aboard in Panama (as most bars were). It was on the manifest as tally# 4984 from the Potosi Mint, but it was loaded in Cartagena (Columbia). It is described as being the King's Quinto, that belonged to a Slave Trader named Duarte de Leon Marquez. The symbol on the opposite end of the bar is described as an "A" over an inverted Cross. ANYBODY that knows anything about JUST HOW Religious the Spaniards were/are, would know they would NEVER either invert a Cross or subjugate it under something else. Also, if you look closely at the bar, if you have it where the "D" is oriented correctly, the rest of the bar is upside down. If you orient the bar where you can read everything else, something amazing happens; what is described as an "A over a Cross" is our famous "Cross & V" of the Jesuit Order:



Now, is that just a coincidence? There are a few things that tell me NO! It is most definitely NOT a coinkydink!

1. The bar was cast at the Potosi Mint in Bolivia. Bolivia was a MAJOR Jesuit area of operation. The Jesuits actually had a plan set up to buy Bolivia from Spain, and make it a Jesuit Colony. The Order had a ton of silver and gold mines in Bolivia (I think about two dozen rich mines along The Sacambaya River alone).

2. The bar was brought aboard at Cartagena, Columbia, and not Portobelo, Panama. A typical silver bar from the Potosi Mint, would have typically been taken to Panama for shipment to Cuba, and on to Spain. The closest large port to the Jesuits in Bolivia would have been Cartagena.

3. It also makes sense that the bar was being shipped by Duarte de Leon Marquez. Most people do not know that The Jesuit Order was one of the largest slaveholders in the New World. They would have been dealing with slave traders on a regular basis.

In short.... a bunch of circumstantial evidence leading back to this bar (at one time) belonging to The Jesuit Order.

So.........all that being said, why is it important that this bar belonged to the Jesuits? It doesn't matter that this bar indicates the Jesuits had wealth. We know they did/do. It doesn't matter that the Jesuits were slaveholders. That was just how people did things back then. It matters, because of that DAMN "Cross & V" Symbol! That bar came out of the water long before Father Polzer stated unequivocally that there were no (authentic) Jesuit Treasure Bars ANYWHERE! THAT "Cross & V" date back to 1622..............and they came from the bottom of the Caribbean. ZERO chance of it being a fraud.

So now that we've come the long way around the bush, here's my question:

Where is that bar today, and is there any way to get some good hi-res pics of it?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Mike

PS

Also, does anybody know if ANY other bars with this symbol have been found?

 

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[Darren in NC]

The V is for the latin word Vinces. There is a legend that Constantine had a dream or vision that he was going to win the battle against Maxentius before he became emperor of Rome. He had a vision of a sign - a cross - and interpreted that Christ was the reason for his win. Later his vision was translated In Hoc Signo Vinces, which essentially means you will conquer because of this sign. Christianity was no longer illegal when he became emperor.

So the cross and the V appear on many Catholic and Jesuit artifacts. Some believe it indicates a Jesuit order. I believe the Jesuits adopted an already popular symbol as part of their insignias. There's a gal named Elle who used to frequent this forum who might know more about this.

 

[gollum]

and since I know this will come up eventually here, my ideas as to the meaning of the "Cross & V" are:

1. A Globus Cruciger. Here are a couple of examples:



The Globus Cruciger basically symbolises Christ's (Cross/Cruciger) Dominion over the Earth (Globe/Globus). If that is the case, then it is likely kind of a Globus Cruciger of the Jesuit Order. I believe the "V" stands for the Latin Word "Vinces". The letters "IHS" have long been associated with the Jesuit Order. They stand for several things:

1. JESUS (IESU)

2. In Hoc Signo (In/Through this sign)

3. IHS became the accepted icons of St. Vincent Ferrer (d. 1419) and of St. Bernardine of Siena (d. 1444)

4. IHS became the icon for the Jesuit Order in 1541.

As with many things Jesuit, it likely has several meanings. My favorite is that since St. Ignatius Loyola was a Spanish Knight, and the Order was founded as a quasi-military order, the "V" stands for "VINCES". Combine that with the "IHS", and you have "IHS V" In Hoc Signo Vinces (In/Through This Sign You Will Conquer). Since that is on a Globus Cruciger, it probably means "Through This Sign, You Will Conquer The World".

My best guess anyway

For anyone that doesn't know their history, the Jesuit Order was founded by Saint Ignatius Loyola in 1531. He was a Spanish Knight that was grievously wounded at the Battle of Pamplona in 1521. While suffering, he prayed to God that if he would allow Loyola to live, he would dedicate the rest of his life to doing God's Work. Well, he did survive, and he founded "Hombres En La Compania de Jesus" (Men in the Company of Jesus). In 1540, the Order became official, and Loyola was the first Jesuit General.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Hey Darren,

Guess we were typing at the same time. There are also a couple of other possibilities. But, like I said, like so many other things Jesuit, it probably has several meanings. I guess I was a bit vague in the first post about it, but I have been giving it much thought for about a dozen years. While I have ideas that are backed by a good bit of circumstantial evidence, there is NOTHING in writing that PROVES 100% what the symbol means. I have an old map of Guadalajara from the early 1700s, that in its legend describes different places on the map by symbols very similar symbols. I will post a pic tonight when I get home.

If you want to see how much time and effort I have put into Jesuit Treasure/Mine History, look through the 238 pages of this thread:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/jesuit-treasures/153540-jesuit-treasures-they-real.html

Mike

 

[elle]

Hola!

The “V” represents the bottom half of Christ’s Sacred Heart.
The cross above completes it as an official emblem of the Jesuit Order.

The “V” also stands for the Latin numeral meaning “five.”
Jesus had five wounds, the fifth one being the lance that pierced his SACRED HEART.

There was no need to finish engraving the top of the heart as this Jesuit emblem was understood “as is.”
Octagonal Jesuit rings have been discovered with stamped hearts, some revealing a “V” and an upper cross
(see Jesuit Rings from Fort Michilimackinac and Other European Contact Sites by Judith Ann Hauser).

The Jesuits had permission under the Viceroy of Peru to administrate in the Royal Mint of Potosí, Bolivia.
Around 1620 the Jesuits opened two schools and began producing the medallas de plata,
which we know today as the famous SILVER SACRED HEART COBS of Potosí.

See —
http://treasurebeachesreport.blogspot.com/2015/12/122615-report-newest-most-authoritative.html

This could explain the Sacred Heart “V” and cross on the Potosí bars that came off the Atocha — 1622.
Remember, many objects with engravings were produced for commemorative purposes.
They were meant for certain groups or individuals, both locally and overseas.

In regards to symbols and emblems that were made upside down or backwards,
they were simply mistakes. After all, humans have faults.
I have seen a number of religious artifacts with variations that were not done intentionally and have no hidden meaning behind them.

All the Best,
Laura

 

[gollum]

Hey Laura,

Thanks for that. See, I figured someone in the shipwreck section would be able to shed some light on this. What looks like a Globus Cruciger on the 60% gold bar in Tucson (Pic#1), the center part that makes up the "line and V" I thought meant the three nails used to place Christ on the Cross. I also thought the "V" may have symbolized the Sacred Heart, but I could never figure why they wouldn't have finished it.

One thing regarding The Sacred Heart; I have always been a progenitor of "going to the horse's mouth" when I have questions about anything. When I first starting researching Jesuit Treasure about 12-15 years ago, I got in touch with Jesuit Historians at The Jesuit Curia in Rome, A Jesuit Historian at Loyola Marymount, here in L.A. and Father John O'Malley SJ who teaches history at Georgetown University, and is widely known as the top scholar on Early Jesuits in the world. Not one of them could (or would) admit to what you and I agree on regarding the "Cross & V" Symbol. Father O'Malley posited that the "V" could possibly stand for The Virgin Mary (she is big in Jesuitland;-). To a person, they also said that while the heart was sometimes used in religious iconography earlier, the Sacred Heart itself was not used until after about 1675. Saint Margaret Mary Alocoque, who had visions of Christ and the Sacred Heart from 1673-1675. It wasn't until sometime after that, that Orders of The Catholic Church (most significantly the Jesuit Order) began using it as a Religious Icon.

I found the Sedwick Sacred Heart Cobs Article. VERY interesting. I am still looking for documentation regarding the Jesuits running the Potosi Mint in the early 17th Century.

Thanks Again for the information. I think it may be the link to finally close the door on a lot of the Jesuit Apologists that claim the Order never owned slaves, operated mines, or had material wealth. There is still a lot more work to be done before I have the crown for my Jesuit Treasure Book (working on three books at the same time makes me feel VERY A.D.D.! HAHAHA

Mike

 

[gollum]

I will whet everybody's appetites with a few newspaper articles regarding a Jesuit Cache found in Rio de Janiero in 1891, and a second expedition in 1901 to recover what was listed but not found the first time in 1891 (for those that believe the Jesuit Order had no wealth):







Enjoy - Mike

 

[gollum]

Here is the map legend I wrote about (oh, and it is Guanajuato not Guadalajara):



Notice how the different map symbols look like variations of the Cross&V Globus Cruciger Symbol?

Mike

 

[Hangingfor8]

Elle aka Laura is one of the best when comes to Catholic and Christian religious artifacts.

 

[elle]

Mike don’t take it personally regarding the answers from scholars, they just simply don’t know.
Historians concentrate on areas that they are passionate about, leaving many avenues to the past
unexplored. It is awesome you are searching for truth and that is exactly what Jesuit Catholic Identity is all
about . . . seeking knowledge in the service of humanity.

It is important to keep an open mind when researching; see things from all perspectives.
I am not saying something did or didn’t happen, but documented evidence is going to be your
greatest asset. So many records were destroyed when the Jesuits were expelled, and in many
cases, history gets lost almost immediately.

Proof of this is in my article from treasurebeachesreport.blogspot.com on the Sacred Heart Cobs
of Potosí—school administrators of the late 1700s had no idea the Jesuits once ran the
institutions they were in. It is surmised the Jesuit Order had permission under the
Viceroy of Peru to have these Sacred Heart medals created for their students. They were not
running the mint, but oversaw and managed the small production of these medallas de plata.

Some things to ponder on . . . Potosí was home to 700 Sacred Heart confraternities. It
was common for deceased people to have willed their land and riches over to the Church
and to various religious orders.

The wealth of those who donated could have included gold or silver bars. It is conceivable
that large institutions could have marked their symbols or initials on precious metals
for ownership purposes. Engravings could also have been done in conjunction with trading
companies, as a mark of financial inflow or receipt. In addition metal has been worked to
commemorate certain events or individuals.

The missionaries lived on the frontier in hostile and challenging environments. They were kept
quite busy with evangelizing and keeping peace with all the different tribes. Father Kino
slept on the ground and used his horse saddle as a pillow.

The Jesuits were the force that stood up against slavery. They gathered natives and people of
color in order to save them from being worked to death by the Spanish and Portuguese. Entire
families were able to stay as a unit on these Jesuit plantations, called reductions, where crops
flourished and everyone learned a trade. Inhabitants had a chance to make their own money
and buy their own freedom, thus gaining legalized papers if ever they chose to merge into society.

In conclusion, all pictures need to be viewed with light from different angles. God Bless all
those of faith who have stood with the less unfortunate in realms of injustice. One of my
favorites—Blessed Jerzy Popieluszko.

Laura J

Thank you Hangingfor8—you are very kind. And Darren, God always shines in your posts of wisdom!

 

[Boatlode]

So now that we've come the long way around the bush, here's my question:

Where is that bar today, and is there any way to get some good hi-res pics of it?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Mike

PS

Also, does anybody know if ANY other bars with this symbol have been found?

That particular ingot (#4584) was sold at the June 1988 auction by Christies, New York (Item #104). There is an excellent hi-res color photo of it plainly showing all the markings on page 141 of that auction catalog. In that same catalog, there are shown many other Atocha ingots with the "V" marking. One of them (Item #377, page 245) also has the cross above the "V", and it appears to be a caravaca cross.

 

[elle]

Boatload you are a genius for posting that information!

If there is a double cross over a “v,” then Mike needs to be looking further at the
Order of Santiago and the markings of Bishops.
Those bars could have been ordered by the Church office,
and perhaps in certain years, commemorative ones were made in honor of certain Jesuits.
This site talks about the history of the Lorraine Cross with its connection to Bishops and the Knights Templar.
Members of the Order of Santiago were also protectors of Jerusalem.
http://www.travelfranceonline.com/cross-of-lorraine-origin-and-symbolism/
_______________________________________________________________________

http://www.languedoc-france.info/06141213_lorraine.htm
This site says:
“A cross with two cross-pieces is not always a Cross of Lorraine - it is also used to
indicate a senior Churchman such as a Patriarch (it is also known as a Patriarchal Cross).
It also appears on the arms of the Archbishop of Narbonne (left).”

 

[Boatlode]

Boatload you are a genius for posting that information!

Why thank you, Laura. People who know me think I'm either a genius or a moron, its split 50-50.

BTW - do you dive?

Mike

 

[bobinsd]

Coincidence

The Jesuits were the force that stood up against slavery. They gathered natives and people of
color in order to save them from being worked to death by the Spanish and Portuguese. Entire
families were able to stay as a unit on these Jesuit plantations, called reductions, where crops
flourished and everyone learned a trade. Inhabitants had a chance to make their own money
and buy their own freedom, thus gaining legalized papers if ever they chose to merge into society.

Interesting statement in light of the recent events at GU.

 

[elle]

Boatlode, yes I dive.
My dream diving destination is the Philippines. Ever been?

Bobinsd, Washington D.C. in 1840 was quite a different place and era
from the mission years of New Spain/South America previously discussed.
Slavery was part of the times, but evidence does exist that many
religious groups helped slaves achieve better lives.

 

[Boatlode]

Boatlode, yes I dive.
My dream diving destination is the Philippines. Ever been?

Never dived the Phillipines, but that is at the top of my list. Thailand has fantastic diving too.

Besides the Keys, I have dived the Caymans and Bonaire. Bonaire is without question my favorite.

 

[elle]

Gollum,

There is one other theory I wanted to add.

The markings in the pictures all have something in common.
The dots, V or A, "o", and the cross seem to be symbols once belonging
to the people of Mesoamerica. Dots, "A," and "o" were sometimes used for numbers.

Additionally, "A" meant "place of" in some writings.

I am not an expert in deciphering ancient glyphs-just giving a lead to explore.


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Codex_Sierra_41.jpg

Ancient Scripts: Aztec

Mesolore: A research & teaching tool on Mesoamerica

 

[BlackLine]

Here is the map legend I wrote about (oh, and it is Guanajuato not Guadalajara):

View attachment 1352118 View attachment 1352119

Notice how the different map symbols look like variations of the Cross&V Globus Cruciger Symbol?

Mike

i would say the "globus" is not a globus. i think it is the comet C/1680 V1. Kino wrote about it.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/C/1680_V1_(Großer_Komet_von_1680)

 

[ARC]

 

[elle]

Thanks AARC! It is evident the Kino and Saeta bars do not have
typical Spanish foundry marks. Normally a circle and cross above indicates a "mission"
or "place of Christianity." It's the two columns of dots on the Saeta bar that I question,
reflecting perhaps Native American culture in origin. Maybe the Kino and Saeta bars were
made as peace offerings from surrounding tribes.

For those unaware, Father Saeta was murdered by Indians in an uprising.