Stolen Pictograph of Earth Medicine Man

[arctodus]

No worries Roadrunner and no offense taken- I'm on your side. I'm just interested in this topic and trying to give some of my knowledge from dealing with and working with the feds over the last 20 years or so.

 

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[Springfield]

Based on post #57, I'll moderate my opinion a bit and support arctodus' stance on the points he's made.

 

[sgtfda]

Nice to have a breath of fresh air on the forum

 

[roadrunner]

Yes, and welcome Cornelius.

 

[Mad Machinist]

Hi Roadrunner-





Finally, and unfortunately, NO! The land does not belong to you or any other American citizen. The land belongs to the feds as clearly stated in every statute dating back to the 1870's when they started creating federal lands. And therefore, everything on that land belongs to the feds. However, in most of the statutes and laws that have been created since then it is the goal of federal lands to be maintained for the people of the country and used by the people of the country.

I have a copy of the ORIGINAL Arizona Statehood Charter here somewhere. If I remember right, it states all federal land in Arizona will be held in public trust. In other words, it is our land, the feds just have responsibility to maintain it for the benefit of the public.

Let me find it before I get into this too much.

 

[Mad Machinist]

No worries Roadrunner and no offense taken- I'm on your side. I'm just interested in this topic and trying to give some of my knowledge from dealing with and working with the feds over the last 20 years or so.

And believe it or not, I am on your side. The problem is when you state the feds own the land, your dead wrong. You own it, I own it, and well as everybody else here.

BLM mission statement:
The Bureau of Land Management is responsible for the stewardship of our public lands. It is committed to manage, protect, and improve these lands in a manner to serve the needs of the American people for all times.
Management is based upon the principles of multiple use and sustained yield of our nation’s resources within a framework of environmental responsibility and scientific technology. These resources include recreation, rangelands, timber, minerals, watershed, fish and wildlife, wilderness, air and scenic, scientific and cultural values.
Publication


USFS mission statement:

The phrase, "CARING FOR THE LAND AND SERVING PEOPLE," captures the Forest Service mission. As set forth in law, the mission is to achieve quality land management under the sustainable multiple-use management concept to meet the diverse needs of people

 

[Mekong Mike]

it might show up on e-bay.

the FBI has a team that deals in this type of theft. you should contact them about this. I believe they would be very interested.

 

[somehiker]

A good read for anyone interested in the topic.

Stealing History: Tomb Raiders, Smugglers, and the Looting of the Ancient World by Roger Atwood - Powell's Books

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'morning Cornelius, gentlemen, gals: The coffee pot is over there--> <(_)P Help yourselves, since Lupita is down at the Market.

You, my friend , are right on the nose. In Mexico the land also belongs to the gov't . Perhaps through you some can understand why I have refused to show actual pictures of Tayopa or to even attempt to open it until I have sufficient sureties that years of personal financing and work will be somehow reimbursed to my family. It, and the surrounding other mines are extremely rich, but ??

As for the other things that I have uncovered in the years in the search, after sending letters to the appropriate depts without even an acknowledgement, I finally just stopped.

Ex. I found the area and the partial construction of the new Capilla between Tubares. Sinaloa, and Guasapares Chihuahua, which was being built to act as the intermediate to pass signals between the mother missions via fire at night, and a form of heliography in the day. I also found where the furnishings to be used in the new Capilla are still stored. Which was named for one of the Martyred Priests. Yes I have made a map for posterity to be passed on if and when ?. Even the people in the area don't know of it.

However it is not just the old Archaeologists at fault, but most depts. For example when I found my self swimming with that huge Aquatic serpent I sent as detailed description as I could recall to the dept of Herpetology to a prominent NE University. I never received an acknowledgement, in fact I know where my letter prob. ended up, along with the empty chewing gum wrappers, cigarette butts, etc. alongside of the desk since they just 'know' such things do not exist .Along with the report on the Pichicuate. As for the other depts sigh.

No the time is running out, even as we post in here things are being destroyed or knowledge of their whereabouts is being lost. Want the site of one the graveyards of some 9-10 ft. giants? sunken ships, etc. Years of searching in Ole Mexico has turned up some very interesting / fascinating things.

I spose that I should leave them to Cubber or Springfield or ?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Cultural thievery, justified under various guises, has been a human tradition for millenia. Those with military, economic or academic dominance have routinely absconded with the vanquished's treasures as a right of their dominance. The precedent is well-rooted world-wide.

Fish rot from the head down. Even if the elite can justify their grave robbing based on lofty ideals, they nonetheless set an example that is not wasted on the less affluent. You can blame and punish tomb robbers because of their lack of credentials, but you can't blame them for recognizing value when they see it. If it's OK for the King to hunt deer for sport, you shouldn't be surprised that his subjects try to bag a buck now and then for food.

Public Land? The citizens' rights thereon are determined by the laws and regulations set forth by the people elected by the same citizens. These criteria are constantly changing. The citizens certainly don't own the public land, except in the same way they own the highways and aircraft carriers - via their taxes. Hell, they don't even permanently own the private land they've bought and paid for - they are only granted certain property rights under the current rules of law. Those can change too via the tax codes, rights of Public Domain, Patriot Act, etc. There's lots of ways to throw you off the farm. Sure, Americans used to have more freedoms in the good old days. Why? Because this facilitated the settlement and exploitation of the continent. Once everything was developed, things began to tighten up for the guy on the street. It continues to get tighter as those who control the assets continue to protect their holdings. It's always been that way once a country is up and running.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

 

[Mad Machinist]

G'morning Cornelius, gentlemen, gals: The coffee pot is over there--> <(_)P Help yourselves, since Lupita is down at the Market.

You, my friend , are right on the nose. In Mexico the land also belongs to the gov't . Perhaps through you some can understand why I have refused to show actual pictures of Tayopa or to even attempt to open it until I have sufficient sureties that years of personal financing and work will be somehow reimbursed to my family. It, and the surrounding other mines are extremely rich, but ??

As for the other things that I have uncovered in the years in the search, after sending letters to the appropriate depts without even an acknowledgement, I finally just stopped.

Ex. I found the area and the partial construction of the new Capilla between Tubares. Sinaloa, and Guasapares Chihuahua, which was being built to act as the intermediate to pass signals between the mother missions via fire at night, and a form of heliography in the day. I also found where the furnishings to be used in the new Capilla are still stored. Which was named for one of the Martyred Priests. Yes I have made a map for posterity to be passed on if and when ?. Even the people in the area don't know of it.

However it is not just the old Archaeologists at fault, but most depts. For example when I found my self swimming with that huge Aquatic serpent I sent as detailed description as I could recall to the dept of Herpetology to a prominent NE University. I never received an acknowledgement, in fact I know where my letter prob. ended up, along with the empty chewing gum wrappers, cigarette butts, etc. alongside of the desk since they just 'know' such things do not exist .Along with the report on the Pichicuate. As for the other depts sigh.

No the time is running out, even as we post in here things are being destroyed or knowledge of their whereabouts is being lost. Want the site of one the graveyards of some 9-10 ft. giants? sunken ships, etc. Years of searching in Ole Mexico has turned up some very interesting / fascinating things.

I spose that I should leave them to Cubber or Springfield or ?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hello my friend,

I'll take that offer of the coffee.

You really hit the nail on the head here. There is so much lost because of bureaucratic crap. I'm interested in hearing about that Aquatic serpent. That should rank right up there with the episode on Shark Week about the Megalodon and how it is really looking like they have survived the rigors of time.

I am all for people exploring, finding, and preserving the past. But anymore it looks like we are only being told what we are wanted to know. I am still looking for information on why the ancient city south of Mexico City was purposefully buried.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

ok... I am a historian..not an archie...but...I have spent much time in anthropology departments..and the homes of archies...
and NOT ONE has ever taken a thing from a site, except to send to the lab.
objects are collected, sent to a lab, cleaned, examined by many educated people... perhaps the object is shelved for later study...the objects do not go home with anyone...legally.
and since most historians, anthropologists, and archeologists have attended classes on the laws regarding artifacts...{helped write the laws}
they go to great lengths to not violate the laws....
their entire education and career path can be derailed by one tiny theft.
it just doesn't happen as often as some people would care to believe.

 

[Springfield]

"There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't."

 

[Mad Machinist]

"There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't."

0100100100100000011101010110111001100100011001010111001001110011011101000110000101101110011001000010000001100010011010010110111001100001011100100111100100100000011010100111010101110011011101000010000001100110011010010110111001100101

 

[Springfield]

0100100100100000011101010110111001100100011001010111001001110011011101000110000101101110011001000010000001100010011010010110111001100001011100100111100100100000011010100111010101110011011101000010000001100110011010010110111001100101

0100100100100000011101110110111101110101011011000110010000100000011001110111010101100101011100110111001100100000011110010110111101110101001000000111001001100101011000010110110001101001011110100110010100100000011101000110100001100001011101000010000001101101011011110111001101110100001000000110111101100110001000000111010001101000011001010010000001110000011011110111001101110100011100110010000001101000011001010111001001100101001000000110000101110010011001010010000001101000011011110111001001110011011001010010000001101000011011110110001101101011011001010111100100101110

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

 

[Jason in Enid]

0100100100100000011101110110111101110101011011000110010000100000011001110111010101100101011100110111001100100000011110010110111101110101001000000111001001100101011000010110110001101001011110100110010100100000011101000110100001100001011101000010000001101101011011110111001101110100001000000110111101100110001000000111010001101000011001010010000001110000011011110111001101110100011100110010000001101000011001010111001001100101001000000110000101110010011001010010000001101000011011110111001001110011011001010010000001101000011011110110001101101011011001010111100100101110

01011001011001010111001100101100001000000111010001101000011001010111100100100000011000010111001001100101001000000110110101101111011100110111010001101100011110010010000001100111011000010111001001100010011000010110011101100101

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

wow...how impressive...even the computer can not recognizes this string of numbers...but it means something to the chosen.

this thread is about a stolen piece of Arizona's history...
children should go play outside.

 

[Springfield]

wow...how impressive...even the computer can not recognizes this string of numbers...but it means something to the chosen.

this thread is about a stolen piece of Arizona's history...
children should go play outside.

Now don't go banging your head against the wall like you did back on #71 - that can cause permanent damage.

OK - sorry, got distracted with an interesting interlude with arctodus, then a bit of fun with a couple of wise guys.

So, back to your expertise. Why is that petroglyph called 'Earth Medicine Man'? Who determined that? When was its location documented by whitey? Do we know for sure it's a genuine native carving? If so, how do we know that? When you say 'Arizona's history' are you beginning at the Territorial period and coming forward, or are you extending indefinitely into the past?