Summary of Pie Grandes Theory on Moctezumas Treasure

piegrande · Oct 8, 2017

Let me repeat something I have said. I do not at all dismiss the possible existence of gold treasure or even Aztec gold treasure in Arizona or NM or other states. What I doubt is that it is from the time of Cortes. This simply does not compute, not at all.

I keep thinking that 500 years ago, there was a great amount of gold, and over this 500 years, most of it has been taken into captivity. Thus, there may well be a number of treasure sites. Gold from different eras and different tribes.

JohnWhite · Jan 28, 2023

I remember back in the 70’s, a man contacted my dad when we lived in Los Angeles…And they told my dad that our family name is descended from Montezuma…I have never done any research into this claim…Nor do I think I ever will…

Ed T

JohnWhite · Jan 28, 2023

I remember they had a show on the History Channel, I believe, called “Lost Gold Of The Aztecs”…And I thought “Oak Island” was bad…That is time of my life wasted that I will never be able to get back…lol

Ed T

piegrande · Jan 29, 2023

I dunno' sounds bogus to me, because there was no one named Montezuma. In the days of Cortes it was Motezucoma, I think, and in modern times it is Moctezuma. But, then do not dox yourself by disclosing your true surname. Cortes simply changed the name to Montezuma and he won the war...

From time to time in history someone claimed to have encountered people in the wild who said they were from Montezuma. Not so. Only Europeans used that name.

JohnWhite · Jan 29, 2023

piegrande said:
I dunno' sounds bogus to me, because there was no one named Montezuma. In the days of Cortes it was Motezucoma, I think, and in modern times it is Moctezuma. But, then do not dox yourself by disclosing your true surname. Cortes simply changed the name to Montezuma and he won the war...

From time to time in history someone claimed to have encountered people in the wild who said they were from Montezuma. Not so. Only Europeans used that

piegrande said:
I dunno' sounds bogus to me, because there was no one named Montezuma. In the days of Cortes it was Motezucoma, I think, and in modern times it is Moctezuma. But, then do not dox yourself by disclosing your true surname. Cortes simply changed the name to Montezuma and he won the war...

From time to time in history someone claimed to have encountered people in the wild who said they were from Montezuma. Not so. Only Europeans used that name.

Tomatoes and potatoes come to mind….The true name was/is Moctezuma but as you say it has been modernized…

Ed T

piegrande · Jan 29, 2023

I hope I didn't say that. In Cortes day it was allegedly Motecozuma or something like that. Moctezuma is the modern spelling. There is even a cement company of that name, and a street and bridge in my village.

It is also hard to read old documents, such as wedding certificates or death certificates, because the written language has changed. LDS known by many as Mormons, even have a training course on line to teach you how to read the old letters and numbers. Languages change.

JohnWhite · Jan 29, 2023

piegrande said:
I hope I didn't say that. In Cortes day it was allegedly Motecozuma or something like that. Moctezuma is the modern spelling. There is even a cement company of that name, and a street and bridge in my village.

It is also hard to read old documents, such as wedding certificates or death certificates, because the written language has changed. LDS known by many as Mormons, even have a training course on line to teach you how to read the old letters and numbers. Languages change.

I make an effort to read and write in Spanish…And I do try to speak it as well…I am not fluent, or at least I do not believe I am, but I do know a little more than coffee and donuts…I don’t know if you have ever watched any india María movies…

Though as far as I am concerned…You will not have any competition from me…I am not interested in Aztec treasure…And without my Mexican amigo as a guide, I don’t think that I will try to make my way back to the end of the trail…

I think that I will stay in town and try my luck with the nearby hills…Who knows

I just may get lucky…I just might find some mineral specimens I can add to a new collection…I would need to start a new collection because I have lost or misplaced all of my old collections…

Oh well…Thus is life…There is no use crying over spilt milk and the shoulda woulda coulda…lol

Ed T

piegrande · Jan 31, 2023

Indian Maria is hilarious. She is sort of Mexico's three stooges, I guess.

I do not worry about competition, since it is impossible to take the stuff - assuming it is there as I believe.

But, life is good here. Old men are respected, unlike in the USA where they may call you old f**t in the street.

JohnWhite · Jan 31, 2023

piegrande said:
Indian Maria is hilarious. She is sort of Mexico's three stooges, I guess.

I do not worry about competition, since it is impossible to take the stuff - assuming it is there as I believe.

But, life is good here. Old men are respected, unlike in the USA where they may call you old f**t in the street.

I used to watch the India Maria movies and El Chavó…They don’t make shows like those anymore…

I saw a report once on “Unsolved Mysteries” long ago about an organized group that focused on smuggling gold and other treasures out of Mexico…I believe the group was known as “Acevedo” or something to that effect…And there is the old saying, “Where there is a will there is a way”…Who knows if said group is still around?

There is so much more respect for senior citizens in Mexico, as you stated, I have met many whom earned the title of Don…
I only hope that one day some of my amigos will call me Don as well, though some already do…They call me Don Éri…I personally don’t feel as if I have earned that much respect…

Ed T😄

piegrande · Feb 3, 2023

I don't really feel I have earned Don, but because of my age, they call me Don Pie (Of course actually Don my real first name.) It is just part of the culture.

I love life here and the Mexican culture and most of the Mexican people. I want to live here until I die, than I want my bones to rest for all eternity with the ancestors of my wife. It is not for everybody. I used to participate on Mexican message boards and worked with people who wanted to move to Mexico. Some of them visited annually for some years, a week or two a year, but some of them made the move and went back to the USA within TWO WEEKS.

piegrande · Mar 26, 2023

Most American couples return to the USA within 2 years. That is why I recommended that everyone rent a place the first two years.

Actually, most couples return. Life is harder for women in Mexico. Single men who 'find' a mate seldom return to the USA.

And, single men often asked me how to 'find' a mate. I told them, you don't understand. Behave yourself; avoid dissolute women and drunkeness, and she will find you. That is why I said 'find' in the previous paragraph.

Randy Bradford · Mar 26, 2023

piegrande said:
Summary of Pie Grande's Theory on Moctezuma's Treasure

I have posted over several years my investigation on the theory that Moctezuma's treasure is buried within 100 feet of my property line somewhere in rural Mexico. One member said it took him three days to read all my detailed postings. At the other extreme, one person (essentially) assumed I had heard drunks talking and spun a major web based on minimal information. It was suggested I make up some sort of index to my postings. After some thought, I chose to make a summary thread.

Evidence such a treasure existed. Cortes said Moctezuma put them in a house in Tenochtitlan (Mexico City). There was a stone box. They opened it and found treasure. Bernal Diaz said that treasure was around 700,000 pesos, which I calculate to be 20 tons, of gold and jewels. Check my figures by Googling for peso, and multiply it out.

During the Noche Triste, Cortes and his soldiers grabbed up the treasure and tried to run for it. Cortes said the Aztecs attacked, and most of the treasure fell into the water and was lost. Diaz said the Aztecs told him they had divers who got it all back. Diaz also said 70 Tlaxcalan soldiers did get away with their loads. A friend here said 70 soldiers could handle around 5 tons with ease. That treasure was sent to Spain, but the ship sank just off the coast of Mexico. That leaves 15 tons which went somewhere. The question is WHERE.

Between 1 and 2 the Spaniards melted the gold down and made crude ingots out of the bulk of it. Made it much easier to transport that way.

Assuming each man was carrying 50 pounds (that's a profoundly generous figure given the fact they were fighting for their lives), 70 men would have carried out 3500 pounds, even if you round up to 4000 pounds (2 tons) that's a far cry from 5 tons.

Randy Bradford · Mar 26, 2023

piegrande said:
Summary of Pie Grande's Theory on Moctezuma's Treasure

3. Much of my investigation could be described as reverse engineering. Trying to duplicate the thought processes of the Aztecs at that time. They were brilliant military strategists so thinking like a military strategist can take you a long way.

piegrande said:
Summary of Pie Grande's Theory on Moctezuma's Treasure

I have posted over several years my investigation on the theory that Moctezuma's treasure is buried within 100 feet of my property line somewhere in rural Mexico. One member said it took him three days to read all my detailed postings. At the other extreme, one person (essentially) assumed I had heard drunks talking and spun a major web based on minimal information. It was suggested I make up some sort of index to my postings. After some thought, I chose to make a summary thread.

3. There are vague legends that the treasure went a couple months north into the current USA. That would make no military sense at all. People were dying in large numbers of small pox, and it would have taken a large force to make it there.

Most of the legends imply 2000 people to move the loot, small pox had breached the capital city but its full effects wouldn't be realized until Cortez returned to finally conquer the city, by then 18 months had passed. The Capital city had literally hundreds of thousands of people living there, and the men who could carry vast loads were part of the merchant class. They wouldn't have had much purpose (or use) in the military sector.

The logistics of such a move is a whole other story, but from a pragmatic sense it was absolutely possible and perhaps even plausible. Point is this wasn't a military operation and having a few thousand slaves and merchants tasked with this duty would have made very little difference from the military standpoint.

piegrande · Mar 26, 2023

Randy, as I have said all theories should be seriously evaluated. Yours is not at all irrational. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

50 pounds? Hee, hee. When I was in high school, we had a 0.3 mile lane and in winter it became impassable My dad would bring gunny sacks of feed for the hog, each one weighing around 110 pounds. Each boy had to carry one home with him. We would take 110 pounds on our shoulder, and run a race that 0.3 miles on snow and ice.

When I was in my 70's, before I got a dangerous parasite infection, we were building, and would get a pickup load of cement in 110 pound bags. I would carry in maybe 6 of them,one at a time..

When you think 50 is a limit, you are thinking of modern America. The men here who went to the USA to work said they got cement in 80 pound bags. The truck that delivered it had a machine on the back which would unload it for them. If that wouldn't start, the Mexicans would unload the truck while the Americans watched.

When I was working before being drafted, in the 60's, I had a job at a feed mill. If i had a load of supplements in 50 pound bags to deliver to a farmer, I would take three at a time and trot them on to the truck. I could do 4 at a time, but that made me tired and anyone who has had manual labor work knows you cannot let yourself get tired.

My dad, born in 1907, told us he once saw an Irish immigrant pick up a rail to his waist. In those days rails were short and weighed around 1100 pounds. Today they are like a quarter mile long and carried on special trains.

The Aztecs did not have labor unions. If the leaders wanted strong slaves or soldiers to carry gold and jewels, they gave the order and it was done.

(more later)

piegrande · Mar 26, 2023

I could pick up a fat hog. My 'little' brother was once seen picking up a cow. He eventually hurt his back.

A friend of my father, I knew him before he died in the Fifties, one day came home from town, a distance maybe 6 miles. He had a horse and farm wagon. There were several men with poles trying to retrieve a Model-T from the mud. Friend asked what they were doing, hee, hee.

He took the reins and snugged them up, which was how you kept horses from taking off. He got off the wagon and walked over, took one end of the Model-T and walked it out of the mud. then he went to the other end and walked it out of the mud. then he clambered up on the wagon again clucked his tongue and went on home.

When I first started living out here, I was overweight and out of shape. I started the Atkins Diet and lost 30 pounds. I got much stronger. One day a young man drove across my field to visit the girl next door. Rage! There was a large rock which would block him but it was in the wrong place. I estimated it at around 1100 pounds. I took a special bar, and inched that rock maybe 30 feet, over the next week to block him out. In the USA I would have hired something by Caterpillar. Here, you just do it. If you can't, you get a couple friends and you just do it.

piegrande · Mar 26, 2023

Randy, I agree with you about the soldiers during Noche Triste not being able to fight effectively, because of the weight they were carrying. That is why only 70 of them escaped with their goodies.

I do have a question. You refer to the trades people. That makes me think you have access to books I have not seen. Can you tell me the name of books that discuss that sort of things.

Randy is doing what is called peer review on what I write, which is good. He is impeded by his own life experiences which is sharply different from mine. His experience labels 50 pounds as a considerable weight. Mine is dramatically different. When you do peer review, if the writer cannot defend his information, he loses.

10000 / 70 = 142.85.

We are many hours from the ocean. Oral tradition said when the Emperor or his family visited here, they had fresh fish from the ocean every day. My wife's grandfather told them that, from family tradition. How was that possible? They had many slaves. Some would bring bags made of straw like substance filled with ice and snow from the PIco of Orizaba, runners would take it to the ocean. They would take a fresh fish and shove it in the bag of snow, then runners would go fast, with relays of runners to wherever the royalty was. this per UNAM also.

Randy Bradford · Mar 26, 2023

piegrande said:
Randy, I agree with you about the soldiers during Noche Triste not being able to fight effectively, because of the weight they were carrying. That is why only 70 of them escaped with their goodies.

I do have a question. You refer to the trades people. That makes me think you have access to books I have not seen. Can you tell me the name of books that discuss that sort of things.

Randy is doing what is called peer review on what I write, which is good. He is impeded by his own life experiences which is sharply different from mine. His experience labels 50 pounds as a considerable weight. Mine is dramatically different. When you do peer review, if the writer cannot defend his information, he loses.

10000 / 70 = 142.85.

We are many hours from the ocean. Oral tradition said when the Emperor or his family visited here, they had fresh fish from the ocean every day. My wife's grandfather told them that, from family tradition. How was that possible? They had many slaves. Some would bring bags made of straw like substance filled with ice and snow from the PIco of Orizaba, runners would take it to the ocean. They would take a fresh fish and shove it in the bag of snow, then runners would go fast, with relays of runners to wherever the royalty was. this per UNAM also.

My guess is they weren't carrying 100 pounds of fish while wearing armor, trying to swing a sword, bleeding and bruised from fighting their way through a mob who were in the process of pelting them with rocks and spears.

In the end, your theory is as good as the next one, maybe even better in some respects. Good luck digging it up!

Randy Bradford · Mar 26, 2023

piegrande said:
Randy, I agree with you about the soldiers during Noche Triste not being able to fight effectively, because of the weight they were carrying. That is why only 70 of them escaped with their goodies.

I do have a question. You refer to the trades people. That makes me think you have access to books I have not seen. Can you tell me the name of books that discuss that sort of things.

Pochteca

Pochteca - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pochteca, the Aztec Merchant Class

Pochteca were professional, long-distance traveling merchants in the Aztec Empire providing luxury and exotic items from faraway lands. They were a small, but important class as they not only facilitated commerce, but also communicated vital information across the empire and beyond its borders...

pochtecagallery.com