sunken treasure in "spain" what do you all think? do we have the right?

[savant365]

Re: sunken treasure in "spain" what do you all think? do we have the right?

I am sure it is more difficult then it sounds but I would disguise my treasure hunting ship to look like something else entirely and keep my mouth shut if I found anything. After this debacle who in their right mind would invest that kind of time and money when the govt is just going to take it away? My question is "Why wasn't there an agreement in place before it got this far"?

 

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[Au_Dreamers]

Re: sunken treasure in "spain" what do you all think? do we have the right?

I am sure it is more difficult then it sounds but I would disguise my treasure hunting ship to look like something else entirely and keep my mouth shut if I found anything. After this debacle who in their right mind would invest that kind of time and money when the govt is just going to take it away? My question is "Why wasn't there an agreement in place before it got this far"?

In my understanding there was, but then something happened within Spain and we now have the mess that is present. Maybe they planned it this way (waiting for OM to find it for them) but they weren't counting on OM flying 17 tons of silver out.

 

[Bum Luck]

Re: sunken treasure in "spain" what do you all think? do we have the right?

Really, the epic fight that Mel Fisher went though resulted in the State of Florida getting 25% of the take.

In Britain, the government gets to buy it.

There has to be a component of the public right, but enough to enable the salvage companies to pay the bills and reward the risk.

Without that, there ain't gonna be any salvage. Ever.

 

[Vox veritas]

Re: sunken treasure in "spain" what do you all think? do we have the right?

Hi friends,
Spanish fleet (with Mercedes) came by royal command to load the royal treasure and / or money. Building on this trip, as was the custom since the sixteenth century, the merchant, passenger and bankers, charged treasures, but in a vessel of Spanish Navy. The fact that cargo transported by individuals not meant to be a trade mission. All is said and attest, there is plenty documentation.
Cheers VV

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Re: sunken treasure in "spain" what do you all think? do we have the right?

Hi friends,
Spanish fleet (with Mercedes) came by royal command to load the royal treasure and / or money. Building on this trip, as was the custom since the sixteenth century, the merchant, passenger and bankers, charged treasures, but in a vessel of Spanish Navy. The fact that cargo transported by individuals not meant to be a trade mission. All is said and attest, there is plenty documentation.
Cheers VV

If I'm reading this properly you support the sovereignty warship claim?

The written law would state otherwise. It doesn’t matter what they called it once commercial cargo was placed on board it became a warship carrying commercial cargo and lost it’s immunity as a sovereign warship according to written law.

You are correct there are plenty of documents that support the fact that the Mercedes was refitted to carry passengers and private citizen’s cargo to include removal of cannon.

Yes it was common for a few centuries, as I have said previously Spain has virtually no claim on “their” colonial wrecks with sovereign immunity because virtually all of them carried commercial cargo.

There is also documentation that Spain cried foul play to England for attack a merchant vessel in an act of piracy. Also Spain states that they are not responsible for the loss of the private cargo because it was not a “royal vessel of war” it was a royal vessel being used to conduct commercial trade and they needed to claim against England. The Spanish citizens then received compensation for their losses from England, which imho makes England an “insurer” and has more right to the treasure than Spain…

But why are we talking about the Mercedes? The coins from the bottom of the Ocean’s floor have not been proven to be from a shipwreck let alone from the Mercedes.

 

[Vox veritas]

Re: sunken treasure in "spain" what do you all think? do we have the right?

Hi friends,
Spanish fleet (with Mercedes) came by royal command to load the royal treasure and / or money. Building on this trip, as was the custom since the sixteenth century, the merchant, passenger and bankers, charged treasures, but in a vessel of Spanish Navy. The fact that cargo transported by individuals not meant to be a trade mission. All is said and attest, there is plenty documentation.
Cheers VV

If I'm reading this properly you support the sovereignty warship claim?

The written law would state otherwise. It doesn’t matter what they called it once commercial cargo was placed on board it became a warship carrying commercial cargo and lost it’s immunity as a sovereign warship according to written law.

You are correct there are plenty of documents that support the fact that the Mercedes was refitted to carry passengers and private citizen’s cargo to include removal of cannon.

Yes it was common for a few centuries, as I have said previously Spain has virtually no claim on “their” colonial wrecks with sovereign immunity because virtually all of them carried commercial cargo.

There is also documentation that Spain cried foul play to England for attack a merchant vessel in an act of piracy. Also Spain states that they are not responsible for the loss of the private cargo because it was not a “royal vessel of war” it was a royal vessel being used to conduct commercial trade and they needed to claim against England. The Spanish citizens then received compensation for their losses from England, which imho makes England an “insurer” and has more right to the treasure than Spain…

But why are we talking about the Mercedes? The coins from the bottom of the Ocean’s floor have not been proven to be from a shipwreck let alone from the Mercedes.

There may be surprises!

 

[joecoin]

Re: sunken treasure in "spain" what do you all think? do we have the right?

Since Spain was ruled by a monarch at the time, all the loot should go to the House of Bourbon.
I'll drink to that!

 

[Panfilo]

Re: sunken treasure in "spain" what do you all think? do we have the right?

The real legal issues regarding this case are somewhat different then have been presented here as the decision that will be taken by judges Stapleton, Black and Hull are directed by Admiralty law and previous precedents regarding similar cases. Of upmost importance and relevance in the dispute over the Mercedes coins is the recent opinion of the same Eleventh Circuit, where this same Judge Black was presiding, is the case Aqua Log Inc. vs. State of Georgia (594 F.3d 1330, 2010) which requires a sovereign nation, in this case Spain, to have possession of the property in order to claim that the property is immune from the jurisdiction of the court. This is a very simple concept to understand and it basically requires Spain to have had the coins in its possession when they were presented to the court. We all know that that is not the case, that Odyssey presented the coins to the Tampa District court and Spain never had possession of the coins. To begin with in 1804 of the close to one million coins transported aboard the Mercedes close to 700,000 belonged to private merchants and only 200,000 coins belonged to the King. During the past oral arguments in Atlanta, Spain’s lawyer Mr. Goold was asked to tell the court when did Spain acquire title to the coins and he had to answer reluctantly that they had never done so with the exception of the Kings coins. Even if all the coins belonged to the King, which is certainly not the case as the ships manifest clearly proves, they did not have possession of them which precludes the possibility of claiming sovereign immunity. Spain’s case has collapsed with the Aqua Log ruling.
Now if the district court has no jurisdiction over the coins, how can it take momentary jurisdiction over them and give them to Spain? How did the court gain authority to transfer the possession of the coins to Spain if it has no jurisdiction? No, if the court has no jurisdiction then the coins they belong to Odyssey until Spain proves in a court of law that the coins belong to them…very difficult case given the historical proof available. If this case was taking place in a banana republic like ours everybody would be crying foul play and corruption. Thank God the case is taking place in a very serious jurisdiction and for sure the appellate court will present a sound opinion, sending the case back to the District court so the descendants will have a right to due process and an evidentiary hearing that has so far been denied. Justice will be done I’m sure and heads will roll in the Spanish cabinet.
Panfilo

 

[DesertNuggets]

Re: sunken treasure in "spain" what do you all think? do we have the right?

do not believe in the righteousness of USA ?




H


Don't forget the wikileaks cables. Spain offered the US, paintings that belonged to american jews that the nazi seized in return for the treasure.

 

[jeff k]

Re: sunken treasure in "Spain" what do you all think? do we have the right?

Panfilo... Even if Odyssey wins this case, I wouldn't be surprised if they offered Spain some kind of settlement. There are enough coins for everybody, and there's still more down there. If they do settle, I would hope that the HMS Sussex is included, so Odyssey could go back to Gibraltar without any problems.

 

[Smudge]

Re: sunken treasure in "spain" what do you all think? do we have the right?

The argument is a fictitious one.

Spain couldn't care less about about a "grave site" where the bodies dissolved long ago. No country would, including the U.S.

It would have everything to do with, oh let's see, MONEY!

The ship was loaded with silver, mostly from Peru, which Spain took by conquest and then enslaved the indigenous peoples to mine for the silver, usually to the point of death. Life spans were measured in months, not years.

That treasure ship was no warship any more than an armored truck would be considered a tank.

No, this all about cashing in on a gigantic coin spill. Pure and simple.

So how about this: 1/4 to Spain, 1/4 to the people of Peru who did the labor getting the silver, and 1/2 to the salavage company who did the hard work in finding and removing the goods?

Or you could just give everything to Spain which then guarantees the future looting and destruction of every treasure ship found from this point forward.

 

[Panfilo]

Re: sunken treasure in "spain" what do you all think? do we have the right?

Jeff, I would speculate that after seeing the appellate courts general attitude, questions and member composition, the odds are above 90% in favor of Odyssey and the descendants. If one reads Spain’s distorted media coverage of the Mercedes case, even as recently as last week, they are in total denial of what is taking place, Mr. Goold stating that things could not have gone better for them and that victory in a short distance away. The newspapers have clouded the real issues hiding behind a false sense of nationalism portraying Odyssey as the villains who stole cultural patrimony from Spain’s territorial sea. Sadly at this point of the game I fear that before Spain sits down to negotiate they will have to face a severe blow in the form of an adverse judgment from the Appellate court. Then they will realize that things are not as they now believe and that if they want their own museums and coins they will have to go look for them with their money and not wait until some enterprising folks take them to am Admiralty court and then claim them as sovereign immune cargo.
Panfilo

 

[jeff k]

Re: sunken treasure in "spain" what do you all think? do we have the right?

Jeff, I would speculate that after seeing the appellate courts general attitude, questions and member composition, the odds are above 90% in favor of Odyssey and the descendants. If one reads Spain’s distorted media coverage of the Mercedes case, even as recently as last week, they are in total denial of what is taking place, Mr. Goold stating that things could not have gone better for them and that victory in a short distance away. The newspapers have clouded the real issues hiding behind a false sense of nationalism portraying Odyssey as the villains who stole cultural patrimony from Spain’s territorial sea. Sadly at this point of the game I fear that before Spain sits down to negotiate they will have to face a severe blow in the form of an adverse judgment from the Appellate court. Then they will realize that things are not as they now believe and that if they want their own museums and coins they will have to go look for them with their money and not wait until some enterprising folks take them to am Admiralty court and then claim them as sovereign immune cargo.
Panfilo

Here's what Goold told the Spanish press. He's either in denial, or lying through his teeth. What a joke.

"I think his position (the Odyssey) was rejected during the hearing yesterday (...). The judges asked Odyssey to furnish support your arguments and I think I got it," said Efe James Goold, a lawyer the Spanish State in the case called "black swan."

Goold said that Odyssey has failed in his attempt to prove to the Eleventh Court of Appeals in Atlanta (Georgia) that the decision of a Florida judge to hand over Spain's treasure "was clearly erroneous."

He explained that, in this sense, the "very good" questions posed by judges at the hearing Odyssey put in evidence that the U.S. company "has not presented evidence" that required him to show that the magistrate's decision in Tampa ( Florida) was "clearly erroneous."

In addition, the U.S. Government presented a "very strong position" in favor of the judge's decision in Tampa, Steven Marryday, and the interests of Spain in the case of treasure made up of nearly 590,000 pieces of silver and gold recovered by Odyssey in international waters."