Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

At a guess, I would say the sources aunt. Want to have a really good time, try tracing that line of the family. It gets a little thin, as I remember.

Good luck,

Joe

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[azdave35]

azdave,

Could be coincidence and unrelated or, a talking point for you.

View attachment 1340576
​

Hal

maybe related to the abbott i'm looking for

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,

I am not interested in vetting the source but agree with you in that Edwards needs to be looked at.

Are you saying that the German Clues became known only recently? Do you know when?
Is there no other source for the GC, other than the one you mention?

If they are from Hermann's original notes, I see the many problems explained by a simple language barrier.
Corbin and Glover tell different versions of the their origins.



Cheers!



Hal

Hal,

I don't believe, for a moment, that there was a "language barrier". I would imagine Waltz spoke better English than many of the Phoenix residents of the time. While, it's said, that the three all spoke German, it's hard to imagine they would use any language, other than English.

The man you should make contact with, assuming you haven't already, is Garry. Much of the information you are seeking has already been discovered and Garry is one of the most reliable sources on the true history of the LDM legend.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Garry]

cactusjumper,

Perhaps you can help me.

Are these Helen's words or, is this a copy of something given to Helen?
The reason I ask is because of the aunt mentioned, is she Helen's aunt or the aunt of the "source"?

It is not clear to me.


Makes a BIG difference.


Hal

View attachment 1340178
​

Hal,

I’m looking for a short cut as I’m having trouble finding your exact references regarding the German Clues.

"The German Clues are considered by many to be the best clues." Treasure Tales of the Superstitions T.E. Glover.

Can you point me to the page to which you are referring?

Also you wrote; “Are these Helen's words or, is this a copy of something given to Helen?

The reason I ask is because of the aunt mentioned, is she Helen's aunt or the aunt of the "source"?

On which page is the mention of the “aunt” (regarding the German Clues) in Corbin’s book to which you are referring? I didn’t pick up the aunt in the page you posted.

I apologize if I’m missing something that is staring me in the face.

Thanks,

Garry

 

[BlackLine]

i love the german clues - finally something I understand well
after the grave and the trap pic were so often clicked i have here some other clues that also match to the mine.

the tree with one limb


the sealed mine from my vid as i stood on the grave (it looks like a horse head with the caliche)


and the face, mule and cave on the slope (check out the location of the mine)


rests from a ruin?


rocks on a rock


after i checked some youtube vids "how to pan ore" i took one of my samples, crushed it and panned it out with my kitchen pan - i found this... okay its very small


what i dont understand is, why there is no clue about the cactus marker? i think i found the little house from jacob... on ge it looks like there is next to the house a small pit with a little bridge. have anyone heard about something like that? hope you enjoy the pics...

 

[Garry]

cactusjumper,

Perhaps you can help me.

Are these Helen's words or, is this a copy of something given to Helen?
The reason I ask is because of the aunt mentioned, is she Helen's aunt or the aunt of the "source"?

It is not clear to me.


Makes a BIG difference.


Hal

View attachment 1340178
​

Hal,

By now you may have already answered most of your own questions regarding the provenance of the German Clues and when they were first made public?

In Dr. Glover’s book “Treasure Tales of the Superstitions” published in 2015 (Page 243), He lays out his provenance of the German Clues.

(Jacob) Waltz to Rhinehart [Petrasch] to Herman [Petrasch] to Edwards to the “present owner”.

There is a footnote #22 in Chapter 15, [Clues Page 243] in which Dr. Glover expands on the date that he received the German Clues and the “source”.

Footnote #22: “Letter with enclosures: Matthew Roberts to Thomas Glover, 10/17/1994. These Clues can also be found in Corbin, H. (2002) pp. 184-188”

I (not Dr. Glover ) feel comfortable in identifying the “present owner” and the “source” as the same person (Matthew).

Dr. Glover does not identify Edwards in the German Clues section for us nor does he have a time period for when Edwards and Herman became partners?

On page 45 there is a photo of Ben Edwards and on pages 58-59, Dr. Glover presents the background and story about Ben and the footnotes (#17 & #18) indicate that the information came from “Roberts Family Information” (RFI).

In this account, Dr.Glover identifies his Edwards as Ben (Benjamin).

In Jane Eppinga’s book, “Apache Junction and the Superstition Mountains, Jane also presents a tie between Kraig Roberts and Edwards (Ben).



For whatever reason, Dr. Glover did not include the German Clues in his book “The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz (1998 and the 2004 reprint). [At least I couldn’t find them in a cursory search]

Summarizing, Dr. Glover has the origin of the story beginning with (Jacob) Waltz to Rhinehart [Petrasch] to Herman [Petrasch] to Ben Edwards to Kraig “Matthew” Roberts.

In Dr. Glover’s story we have Herman Petrasch working with Ben Edwards and in Helen Corbin’s story we have Herman Petrasch working with William Edwards (the Grandfather) in a much different period.

The German Clues appeared publically for the first time in Helen’s book (2002). Hal has posted a portion of the story that appears in Helen’s book above.

In Helen Corbin’s story, the provenance goes: Jacob Waltz (Orally) to Julia Thomas and Rhinehart Petrasch (Orally) to Herman Petrasch (He created the German Clues) to William Edwards to George Matthew Roberts to Sarah “Bertie” Roberts to Matthew Roberts.

There are obviously inconsistences and at this point in time and we have been unable to verify that the Ben Edwards, William Edwards and Sarah “Bertie” Roberts whose personal information appear in numerous places within Helen’s book are real people.

BTW the alleged William Edwards is also the Sgt William Edwards who discovered the famous Peralta massacre site and backtracked the victim’s skulls to what he believed was the area of the Peralta workings. The story appears on pages 276 thru 283 in Helen’s book.

On page 274, we have the following quote:

“When Ben Edwards passed away I inherited all of his and his grandfather’s things, including the items discovered over a century ago.

“Here is the original account, exactly as it was handed down to me.” Mathew Roberts

Lots to research, chew on and swallow,

Garry

Not sure why the thumbnail shows up or how to get rid of it. Sorry about that.

 

[Honest Samuel]

Great pictures enjoy by all.

 

[cactusjumper]

Garry,

You are correct that the "German Clues" are not in either edition of Dr. Glover's first book. That does seem strange, considering that Matthew Roberts is listed as a source. Helen's "Bible" was published in 2002 and, as you have mentioned, does include the "German clues". For whatever reason, I never believed in the authenticity of the "German Clues". Probably the same reason I didn't believe the Alkire story.

Good post,

Joe

 

[Azquester]

Morning Gary,

Can you point me to the page to which you are referring?
Treasure Tales of the Superstition - page 245.

The aunt is mentioned on page 188 of Helen's book.
Not sure that it is directly tied to the German clues as I only have the GoogleBook version which is incomplete.
It is not clear to me if this is Helen's aunt or the source's aunt, which is why I had asked cactusjumper to explain it.

"My great aunt had occasion to talk with Rhinehart at the annual Pioneer Days picnic in 1933. Rhinehart told her the same story that Herman had told her."

I have that book Hal. Anything you need posted just let me know.

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

You realize that Helen's book is Copyright and cannot be reproduced or transmitted in any form.....etc., without the written permission of the author. While we all quote short parts of many books, your pictures of the actual contents seem a bit over the top.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Garry]

Morning Gary,

Can you point me to the page to which you are referring?
Treasure Tales of the Superstition - page 245.

The aunt is mentioned on page 188 of Helen's book.
Not sure that it is directly tied to the German clues as I only have the GoogleBook version which is incomplete.
It is not clear to me if this is Helen's aunt or the source's aunt, which is why I had asked cactusjumper to explain it.

"My great aunt had occasion to talk with Rhinehart at the annual Pioneer Days picnic in 1933. Rhinehart told her the same story that Herman had told her."

Hal,

Since this came from Helen's book, I would believe that this would be Matthew Roberts's greataunt, Sarah Bertie Roberts (1877-1969) who was advertised as a child of George Riley Roberts and Sarah Caveness.
She would have been alive during the period of the Pioneer Days picnics.

Switching gears, Dr. Glover doesn't mention Sarah as the family historian but on Page 156 (1998) I believe he is speaking of Sarah when he introduces Margaret Roberts (Born 1901) as the family historian who inherited the Roberts Family Documents in 1924 from an elderly Aunt. (Sarah? would have only been 47 in 1924 so it's a head scratcher of why whe was turning over all of the family records to a 23 year old) Maybe a different Elderly aunt and I have it wrong.

Margaret Roberts came on board and attended the Arizona Pioneer Picnics interviewing many of the old timers and adding a new layer of information. Who was Margaret Roberts? I believe she would have been a granddaughter of George Riley Roberts. Since she carried the Roberts name I might assume that she was the daughter of one of his three sons, William H Roberts (Ida Holmes first husband) George Matthew Roberts (Involved with the German Clues) and Archibald Roberts, the youngest son.

Larry Hannah did the heavy lifting and spent a "lot" of time on time on each of the nine children of George Riley Roberts' family and found no candidate that came close to fitting Margaret or for that matter Sarah "Bertie" Roberts. Maybe someone else can do better?

The whole Roberts family framework in Helen's book, Dr. Glover's book and particularly public records don't fit together to make much sense?

Garry

 

[Azquester]

Bill,

You realize that Helen's book is Copyright and cannot be reproduced or transmitted in any form.....etc., without the written permission of the author. While we all quote short parts of many books, your pictures of the actual contents seem a bit over the top.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

We've already discussed this with the moderator, it's for research purposes, not the complete book, and totally legal. Besides, they don't produce the book anymore and you can't get them new.
But, just for the sake of argument, let me be clear the work I just posted is all Helen Corbin's, not mine, and I'm not making any money by showing it like Google Books does with ads which is illegal in my book.

You established Dutchman Hunter guys are the ones that told me to buy that damn misleading Bible book back in 2002! I'm sure glad I never prayed (bible) attention to it!

Cheers,
Bill

 

[Old]

Hal, I do not see you as even remotely resembling a turnip <g>. Naw, not even close.

Garry, as to the Sarah Bertie Roberts born in 1877, a purported daughter of George Riley Roberts question.........I could not find a good candidate either. There is a Sarah Ellen Roberts who went by the name "Ella" born in 1866 who married last a Compton and died in Santa Monica, CA and there is a Bertha Roberts born in 1881 who went by "Berthie". Listed family recollections and later census records say she married a Bennett, divorced without children, and died in Los Angeles in 1969 having lived in California the majority of her adult life.

Here is the 1880 census records. I see no girl child born in or around 1877. If anyone has anything to identify an additional daughter of George and Sarah Roberts who would fit the description I'd like to see it.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal, I do not see you as even remotely resembling a turnip <g>. Naw, not even close.

Garry, as to the Sarah Bertie Roberts born in 1877, a purported daughter of George Riley Roberts question.........I could not find a good candidate either. There is a Sarah Ellen Roberts who went by the name "Ella" born in 1866 who married last a Compton and died in Santa Monica, CA and there is a Bertha Roberts born in 1881 who went by "Berthie". Listed family recollections and later census records say she married a Bennett, divorced without children, and died in Los Angeles in 1969 having lived in California the majority of her adult life.

Here is the 1880 census records. I see no girl child born in or around 1877. If anyone has anything to identify an additional daughter of George and Sarah Roberts who would fit the description I'd like to see it. View attachment 1341995

Lynda,

Pretty much ground we've plowed before. As I said, the connection is pretty thin, maybe thinner than frog's hair. Believe Matthew could clear it up very quickly. Since he has all the original notes, diaries and other historical items. Doubt he will do that, but many of us would like to see him set things straight.

It's been interesting.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

 

[Old]

Joe, Thanks. My purpose in posting the census tagged to this thread is not to say "look what I found". I know this area has been plowed before by folks better at this than I. My purpose is to enter the body of evidence in the record, so to speak, so that the next person looking at this doesn't have to go back to ground zero. I don't want to speak for Hal but I believe that's his purpose as well.

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill Riley.
IYO- did Helen believe in the sourced material in her book or, was she simply presenting it to her readers for review?



Thanks.
Hal

Hal,

Having spoken to Bob Corbin extensively about this subject, I was told that they both believed in the source. On the other hand, Helen was being pushed by her publishers to complete the book. for me, that meant she didn't have the time to fully research much of the new information.......assuming she would have wanted to, which I doubt. Bob made trips into the Superstition Mountains with Matthew, and was convinced that he had Apache friends and was shown artifacts that seemed authentic to his perception.

Once again, I believe this is an effort to draw interest to Peter's Mesa, which may be the principle area of interest in an unpublished book.

Because of the events that have unfolded over the years, this is my conclusion which is strictly personal opinion. It may be a bad guess from a less than optimal thought process, so take it for what it's worth.

It may be that a number of people with a vested interest in the LDM are willing to accept this new history in order to create fresh interest in an old legend. If that's the case, they may believe that it's all fair, if that fresh interest is the final objective. It may all boil down to $$$$$$.

Just some Monday morning ramblings.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Garry]

Hal,

There is a lot of information on Gideon 16 in Helen Corbin’s book. There is a photo of Gideon 16 which was also included in Dr. Glover’s book “Part 2, The Holmes Manuscript.

From Page 3 in Helen’s book, she wrote; “George Riley Roberts (1828-1884) was born in Virginia. (His grandfather fought in the Revolutionary War and was with George Washington at Valley Forge; he was killed by Indians near Middlesboro in 1835.) At age 15 George and brothers William, John and Thomas left for Mississippi where other family members were settled and owned a farm.

Jones County, Mississippi — George R. Roberts met his cousin Abraham H. Peeples (1826-1892). The pair became fast friends and allies.

In 1848 Peeples and Roberts, along with other family members went to Cairo, Illinois, to join with Peeple’s brother who ran a trade station there. No sooner had they arrived than word of the California Gold Rush reached them. The group decided to go.

George R. Roberts, his brothers, along with cousins Charles, Cyrus and Return left Illinois with A. H. Peeples and headed for Fort Hondo outside Castroville, Medina County, Texas, where a wagon train was assembling to join the Gold Rush.

Fort Hondo was about 5 miles from Castroville and was considered, the edge of civilization. It was also the jumping off point for the wagon trains.

At Castroville the group was joined by three other family members — Daniel, Mose and Gideon Roberts -who hailed from near Beaumont, Texas. The three were cousins of George Riley Roberts.

The wagon train consisted of 60 or 70 people, a good portion of whom were German immigrants, including a man named Jacob Waltz, who traveled to California with Roberts and Peeples.

According to Bob Corbin, this information was supplied to Helen by Kraig Roberts.

WOW! What a story. There are a lot of people, events and places you will be able to research and you should be able to put the genealogy together and figure out how George Riley’s son William, fits with Gideon Roberts.

Good Luck,

Garry

I know I’m way behind in this thread but I did want to post George Riley Roberts’ obituary.

I’m attaching it to the Helen Corbin Story post to allow an easy comparison of the two. There is also more information but this may serve as a small example with which we are frequently faced in trying to get at the truth.

There is a large amount of never before known information that appeared in Helen Corbin’s book (2002) and also a lesser amount in Dr. Glover’s book (1998).

I will refer to it as the “New History” and as near as I can tell it probably began to be leaked in the early 1990s.

George Riley Roberts is arguably the foundation for much of the “New History” although a case could also be made that the Olber’s Manifest was the anchor for the stories to follow.

George Riley’s obituary appeared over a hundred years earlier and again we see differences with the “New History” regarding his trip to California.



Also we have an account from Carl Hayden’s Arizona Pioneer Biographical Essays (George Riley Roberts). I’ll insert the first page but the link for the complete article follows.



http://www.asu.edu/lib/archives/azbio/bios/ROBERTSG.PDF


Dr. Glover also touches on George Riley Roberts and his trip to California in his book (1998), Page 192, with a similar story of George Roberts and Abraham Peeples stopping in the Cherokee Nation (Oklahoma) and reaching California in 1850/1851.

There is no mention of Jacob Waltz, Fort Hondo or a wagon train in Dr. Glover's account or the Hayden Essays.

I’ll offer a pretty simple research project to those who might have that kind of inclination.

When was Fort Hondo established near Castroville Texas?

Garry

 

[Oroblanco]

I know I’m way behind in this thread but I did want to post George Riley Roberts’ obituary.

I’m attaching it to the Helen Corbin Story post to allow an easy comparison of the two. There is also more information but this may serve as a small example with which we are frequently faced in trying to get at the truth.

There is a large amount of never before known information that appeared in Helen Corbin’s book (2002) and also a lesser amount in Dr. Glover’s book (1998).

I will refer to it as the “New History” and as near as I can tell it probably began to be leaked in the early 1990s.

George Riley Roberts is arguably the foundation for much of the “New History” although a case could also be made that the Olber’s Manifest was the anchor for the stories to follow.

George Riley’s obituary appeared over a hundred years earlier and again we see differences with the “New History” regarding his trip to California.

View attachment 1342771

Also we have an account from Carl Hayden’s Arizona Pioneer Biographical Essays (George Riley Roberts). I’ll insert the first page but the link for the complete article follows.

View attachment 1342772

http://www.asu.edu/lib/archives/azbio/bios/ROBERTSG.PDF


Dr. Glover also touches on George Riley Roberts and his trip to California in his book (1998), Page 192, with a similar story of George Roberts and Abraham Peeples stopping in the Cherokee Nation (Oklahoma) and reaching California in 1850/1851.

There is no mention of Jacob Waltz, Fort Hondo or a wagon train in Dr. Glover's account or the Hayden Essays.

I’ll offer a pretty simple research project to those who might have that kind of inclination.

Great post Garry.
Garry also wrote

When was Fort Hondo established near Castroville Texas?

Garry

LOL

 

[cactusjumper]

Garry,

Believe I looked into the history of Fort Hondo a number of years ago. Probably shared it with you, but don't recall much information being available.

Take care,

Joe