Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[markmar]

Hal

I wish you good luck in your research , but seems how others made this research long time before you . I believe how you will run in a circle . Like to walk around the Earth , as to speak . You will see many new things , you will hear new stories , but at the end , you will arrive to the same point you have started .
Some events can't change , like Jacob Waltz had a rich mine in the Superstitions and how Dick Holmes took possesion ( no matter how ) of the Waltz's candle box with gold ore after Waltz's death . If Gideon O Roberts was the great-uncle of Brownie's brother or a ghost , this don't change anything of the above facts .
The Brownie Holmes affidavit , was an answer to the people like you , who dedicated their lives to prove the contrary of what in the reality has occured .

 

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[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I could have bet on this kind of reaction, having seen the same thing many, many times. It all has to do with who's who in the LDM Zoo. You probably have no idea who the "friends" of yours are. When you try to find out the truth behind many of these stories, you can't help but ruffle feathers. Some folks are easy to offend, especially when the facts don't agree with what they believe. I know some will say that's me, but I don't get offended by opposing opinions. It just makes me dig deeper into historical facts.......like you are doing. In that process you will step on some very tender toes. You know why they are tender. Can't see any good reasons for you to stop.

Good luck,

Joe

cactusjumper,

Sounds cold but, I am not interested in anything more than learning the truth.

This is what I understand:

• Dick Holmes was not with Waltz when he died.
• Brownie Holmes, if he wrote the Holmes Manuscript, wrote it as a work of historical fiction or, he was intentionally misleading people.
• There is a strong chance that Bark's Gideon Roberts was actually (Dr.?) Gideon O. Roberts.
• The identity of the person in grave16 needs to be confirmed with the Pioneer Cemetery Association.

A very different story is emerging.
Familiar to some, new to the rest of us.




Hal

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal

I wish you good luck in your research , but seems how others made this research long time before you . I believe how you will run in a circle . Like to walk around the Earth , as to speak . You will see many new things , you will hear new stories , but at the end , you will arrive to the same point you have started .
Some events can't change , like Jacob Waltz had a rich mine in the Superstitions and how Dick Holmes took possesion ( no matter how ) of the Waltz's candle box with gold ore after Waltz's death . If Gideon O Roberts was the great-uncle of Brownie's brother or a ghost , this don't change anything of the above facts .
The Brownie Holmes affidavit , was an answer to the people like you , who dedicated their lives to prove the contrary of what in the reality has occured .

Yes, others have reached the same conclusion long before me.
The point is, I reached it.

Those who have not or, choose not to try, are at a distinct disadvantage.

 

[Old]

Hal, I salute you for some excellent research. Yet another fable is added to an already substantial list.

Marius, what you (and others) fail to see is the pattern. If you (collective you) would understand the pattern you would know why Helen Corbin's book, unfortunately named The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz, was pulled from production. It is riddled with out right fabrications and half truths. Those fabrications and half truths source to ONE individual.

If you delve further you will question many things that you thought were solid. They are not. Who lied to who and for how long? I do not know. I do not know where the lies and deception started but I know where it ended. If you took the time and effort to look rather than accepting blindly you too would know.

Marius the trip around the world that you use an analogy is not wasted time. When you return, as you say, to your starting point you are wiser by the benefit of what you learned along the way.

On this imaginary trip around the world we learn the ship manifest is a work of fiction cleverly woven and manufactured from unrelated true events, The Walker Expedition member list is a work of fiction with LDM primary characters injected into history. The Kansas bank draft is based on period documents with LDM characters erroneously injected to create a false record. Rightly or wrongly, it taints all information and documents from this source.

As to the Roberts/Holmes families it matters little to me what their genealogy is. Many families, mine included, focus on the positive and don't speak of the negative. That's forgivable. What is disturbing is when omissions and alterations are restructured and presented to provide evidence of a historical event. That's out of bounds and should be rightly called out.

What is available in census records and long ago published manuscripts differs from what is currently presented to us.

As an example Richard Holmes repeatedly gave his place of birth as California. That went on for years until he was active in the Phoenix Pioneer revival. Only then did he begin to say he was born at Fort Whipple, AZ. Why does it matter? Because it goes back to the porch conversation between Brownie and Clay. Brownie said he did not believe his father ever lied to him and that he did not lie to Clay. Well......... Richard Holmes lied to somebody over something as simple as where he was born. What you ought to be questioning is what prompted that conversation between Brownie and Clay. Clay obviously was questioning the truthfulness of someone.

I question whether or not William H. Roberts was the son of Sarah E. (Cavaness) Roberts. If so the household adults - which would have been either George R. Roberts or Sarah herself - provided information for the 1880 census indicating Sarah was born in Arkansas whereas William H. Roberts' mother was described as being born in Tennessee. Later in 1910 William H. listed his mother has having been born in California. I don't think William H. Roberts ever knew his mother or where she was born. A review of George R. Roberts' will probated in Maracopa Co. is also revealing. George R. Roberts lists his children (born of Sarah) and starts to but stops short of giving a relationship between him and William H. Roberts. A trust is created for the benefit of the children of Sarah E. of all George's worldly goods, but specifically excludes William H. Roberts from that inheritance, rather leaving him the fat sum of $10. The net effect being a disinheritance. Matters little to finding the LDM but it matters greatly as to accepting blindly all "facts" upon which you build a base of evidence.

Be careful of what is presented to you. Compare and question all that you see. Question why these "historical" documents appeared when they did. You will come away wiser for the journey.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentle men, as My Grick firiend, intimated, why are you argueing over something that does not have any specific, or direct, bearing on the Dutchmans discovery ? I would suggest that we stick to the few relatively known facts on the mine, if there are any, and there must be to convince the hard nosed people of that period,.


Old mi luv, we apparantly think in a simiolar fashion, and my extensive ego says simply that we are right, the essentials . That is did or did he not have a hot prospect, and did he ever recover a asignificient amount of gold from it, that \is the question.

 

[azdave35]

Hal, I salute you for some excellent research. Yet another fable is added to an already substantial list.

Marius, what you (and others) fail to see is the pattern. If you (collective you) would understand the pattern you would know why Helen Corbin's book, unfortunately named The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz, was pulled from production. It is riddled with out right fabrications and half truths. Those fabrications and half truths source to ONE individual.

If you delve further you will question many things that you thought were solid. They are not. Who lied to who and for how long? I do not know. I do not know where the lies and deception started but I know where it ended. If you took the time and effort to look rather than accepting blindly you too would know.

Marius the trip around the world that you use an analogy is not wasted time. When you return, as you say, to your starting point you are wiser by the benefit of what you learned along the way.

On this imaginary trip around the world we learn the ship manifest is a work of fiction cleverly woven and manufactured from unrelated true events, The Walker Expedition member list is a work of fiction with LDM primary characters injected into history. The Kansas bank draft is based on period documents with LDM characters erroneously injected to create a false record. Rightly or wrongly, it taints all information and documents from this source.

As to the Roberts/Holmes families it matters little to me what their genealogy is. Many families, mine included, focus on the positive and don't speak of the negative. That's forgivable. What is disturbing is when omissions and alterations are restructured and presented to provide evidence of a historical event. That's out of bounds and should be rightly called out.

What is available in census records and long ago published manuscripts differs from what is currently presented to us.

As an example Richard Holmes repeatedly gave his place of birth as California. That went on for years until he was active in the Phoenix Pioneer revival. Only then did he begin to say he was born at Fort Whipple, AZ. Why does it matter? Because it goes back to the porch conversation between Brownie and Clay. Brownie said he did not believe his father ever lied to him and that he did not lie to Clay. Well......... Richard Holmes lied to somebody over something as simple as where he was born. What you ought to be questioning is what prompted that conversation between Brownie and Clay. Clay obviously was questioning the truthfulness of someone.

I question whether or not William H. Roberts was the son of Sarah E. (Cavaness) Roberts. If so the household adults - which would have been either George R. Roberts or Sarah herself - provided information for the 1880 census indicating Sarah was born in Arkansas whereas William H. Roberts' mother was described as being born in Tennessee. Later in 1910 William H. listed his mother has having been born in California. I don't think William H. Roberts ever knew his mother or where she was born. A review of George R. Roberts' will probated in Maracopa Co. is also revealing. George R. Roberts lists his children (born of Sarah) and starts to but stops short of giving a relationship between him and William H. Roberts. A trust is created for the benefit of the children of Sarah E. of all George's worldly goods, but specifically excludes William H. Roberts from that inheritance, rather leaving him the fat sum of $10. The net effect being a disinheritance. Matters little to finding the LDM but it matters greatly as to accepting blindly all "facts" upon which you build a base of evidence.

Be careful of what is presented to you. Compare and question all that you see. Question why these "historical" documents appeared when they did. You will come away wiser for the journey.

old....like you said ..none of this is going to help anyone find the ldm....but it is great historical info.......but you cant believe everything you see in old newspapers....hal posted an article about charles rodig ..i believe it was in this thread..about a mine he found..in the article it said it was a hardrock mine and he brought back ore samples...i did alot of research on rodig's (some have it spelled rhodig) lost mine...everything i read on it said it was a placer mine and he brought back nuggets and that he never could find it again....there was an old newspaper article on it other than the one hal found...it could probably be found again......no big deal but it goes to show newspapers can be wrong too...i have also done alot of research on old mining claims..20 years ago you had to go to the blm or county recorder and look through microfilm...now they have all been uploaded to the county website...the problem with that is most of the old docs were written in cursive..so they can be very difficult to decipher...to make things worse when they put everything online if they couldn't make out a word they would just guess at it and upload it...i was looking up info on a mine owned by a person by the last name of eleven...the county employees couldn't read it so they guessed the last name was extention...thats why alot of the docs are hard to find online.....and thats not an isolated case..i find these mistakes all the time..many docs are lost because of lazy county employees ...be aware of this while doing research

 

[Old]

Yes Dave, newspaper are notorious for inaccuracies. Census, land, and probate records in their natural form (original hand written form) on the other hand, give you prima facie evidence of what the involved parties themselves said and did. I enjoy reading newspapers, I rely on court records. Big difference.

 

[markmar]

Yes, others have reached the same conclusion long before me.
The point is, I reached it.

Those who have not or, choose not to try, are at a distinct disadvantage.

Hal , I observed a big enthusiasm in your research ...

 

[markmar]

Lynda

For many things in this world don't exist evidences . This fact don't make these things fake or nonexistent .
For example , take the History book and search for evidences/documents of all that are written in it . You will be surprised of your results .
Also ,I believe H Corbin's book was in the fiction category , based in a legend , and some unprovable documents or statements could be used .

 

[Old]

Lynda

For many things in this world don't exist evidences . This fact don't make these things fake or nonexistent .
For example , take the History book and search for evidences/documents of all that are written in it . You will be surprised of your results .
Also ,I believe H Corbin's book was in the fiction category , based in a legend , and some unprovable documents or statements could be used .

Marius, What you are having a problem with is the difference between what someone believes to be true and is relayed to you, (interesting and entertaining) and things that are manufactured documents for the specific purpose of deceit .........that's a whole different category. We have a bunch of both.

 

[markmar]

Lynda

Marius the trip around the world that you use an analogy is not wasted time. When you return, as you say, to your starting point you are wiser by the benefit of what you learned along the way.

Yes , wiser but empty handed in this case .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hal, my friend, if there actually existed a LDM and who was involved, just how much of this argumental data would help solve it ? Was there an actual mine is one of the basic questions, not who married whom etc.

Was Walz just another DR in his final years trying to justify his life with a ficticious story and accumulated rich specimans of Gold or ?

If I had followed this line of reasoning Tayopa would still be lost. join me ?

 

[azdave35]

Hal, my friend, if there actually existed a LDM and who was involved, just how much of this argumental data would help solve it ? Was there an actual mine is one of the basic questions, not who married whom etc.

Was Walz just another DR in his final years trying to justify his life with a ficticious story and accumulated rich specimans of Gold or ?

If I had followed this line of reasoning Tayopa would still be lost. join me ?

real.....i dont think they are interested in looking for the mine...it's more of a challenge to get at the historical truth..i dont know if they will uncover anything of importance but you never know

 

[azdave35]

azdave,

I see this conversation eventually turning to those who allegedly knew Waltz best, Julia and Rhinehart.
And, to those they would have first shared any clues with, Herman and Albert.

And, ultimately, the German Clues.

​

"The German Clues are considered by many to be the best clues." Treasure Tales of the Superstitions T.E. Glover

i would say they are the only ones the dutchman confided in...it makes you wonder...if he would have given the info to holmes...the mine might not be lost

 

[audigger53]

Lynda

For many things in this world don't exist evidences . This fact don't make these things fake or nonexistent .
For example , take the History book and search for evidences/documents of all that are written in it . You will be surprised of your results .

I can give you one like that right now.
My father was on the Oklahoma at Pearl. He told me that he saw the Arizona evacuated 3 times and all three times they went back to fight the fires. After the third time, the fire finally got to the Powder Magazine and blew the bottom out. There was no bomb that just sunk the Arizona right away and took the crew down. IMO they were all Hero's, not victims. However it made more political sense to make them victims and make all the people upset enough to stand behind going to War.
The Arizona was hit more than the others because she was to have an inspection on Sunday, because she failed the inspection of Friday and had to pass inspection for them to go on Liberty. As such all of the guns had to bore plugs removed so they could be inspected. If they could have gotten to the ammo in time, she could have fought back with the 5 inch and 16's for Anti aircraft. The pilots saw and knew this so she got most of the bomb attacks. The Oklahoma was in the way for them to use torpedoes on the Arizona. BTW My father got the Navy Cross for his actions at Pearl. All of the above was told to me by him.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Au, congratulate your father for me. i ddn't make peal Harbor, I was at the north sland Naval aircraft Ordnance school but many of my classmates were there..

 

[markmar]

Hal

You quote " "The German Clues are considered by many to be the best clues."
Treasure Tales of the Superstitions T.E. Glover "

I believe the right words which should be used in this quote , are " could be the best clues " , because of their source . Now , to be considered from many DH how these clues are the best of Waltz , this shows how they found the mine and can to compare with the other clues.
The German clues have many gaps in the route, and describe more detailed only the region around the mine .

 

[markmar]

i would say they are the only ones the dutchman confided in...it makes you wonder...if he would have given the info to holmes...the mine might not be lost

Dave

The clues that told Waltz to Holmes are similar ( on the same route ) with the German clues . The Holmes clues stop at the camp site and the German clues continue from the camp site with the description of the mine region .
I agree how if Waltz would give the German clues to Holmes , maybe Holmes would find the mine . But the German clues were/are not enough to find the mine ( like Waltz said ; ... " but you can't find it without me " ) and the missed/additional clues which were given to Julia , never were made public .

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal

You quote " "The German Clues are considered by many to be the best clues."
Treasure Tales of the Superstitions T.E. Glover "

I believe the right words which should be used in this quote , are " could be the best clues " , because of their source . Now , to be considered from many DH how these clues are the best of Waltz , this shows how they found the mine and can to compare with the other clues.
The German clues have many gaps in the route, and describe more detailed only the region around the mine .

Marius,

The source of the "German Clues" is said to be Ben Edwards. He was not a direct source for Helen Corbin. That, as well as other discredited information, came from another source. Perhaps our research should be transferred to that source, as well as searching for Ben Edwards.

Dr. Glover provided a good deal of doubt about those "clues" in his book.......The use of the metric system. The extremely poor German used. Not really written by someone fluent in German....etc.

I would like to see Hal looking into the Ben Edwards story.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,

I am not interested in vetting the source but agree with you in that Edwards needs to be looked at.

Are you saying that the German Clues became known only recently? Do you know when?
Is there no other source for the GC, other than the one you mention?

If they are from Hermann's original notes, I see the many problems explained by a simple language barrier.
Corbin and Glover tell different versions of the their origins.



Cheers!



Hal

Hal,

I don't know when the "German Clues" first came to light, but believe it was fairly recently. The years seem to run together a bit, so Matthew Roberts or Greg Davis would be your best bet. To be honest, I don't have much faith that either of those men will be anxious to help you.

Actually, I believe the "German Clues" were created to lead folks to believe the LDM is on Peters Mesa. Many new clues and stories seem to have no other purpose than possible familiarity with a new book, unpublished at this time. It's somewhat like reverse engineering a treasure map. If this information came from someone named Ben Edwards, I would like to see the original notes/diary or manuscript presented for authentication.

Take care,

Joe