what sort of registration cards are these?
Superstition People, Places, & Things.
- Thread starter Hal Croves
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what sort of registration cards are these?
that's what i thought but wasn't sure...are you able to pull up death cert's online?...maricopa county wont let you unless you fill out a form
Old
Hero Member
Hal, just to beat the dead horse. I'm still somewhat skeptical of the Ida H. Holmes deed. If you get hold of a copy I'd love to see it. Its really not a big point and it could very well be exactly as you believe and it was just a print screw up.
Its just not what I'm used to seeing. I think it may be telling us something that's not in play as we know it. If it was a deed from Ida and Richard Jr. (the wife and husband,) it should have read, Ida H. (obviously wrong initial) Holmes, et vir (and husband) and not have read, et al (and others). Et al gives a different connotation.
Its just not what I'm used to seeing. I think it may be telling us something that's not in play as we know it. If it was a deed from Ida and Richard Jr. (the wife and husband,) it should have read, Ida H. (obviously wrong initial) Holmes, et vir (and husband) and not have read, et al (and others). Et al gives a different connotation.
Hal,
There is a lot of information on Gideon 16 in Helen Corbin’s book. There is a photo of Gideon 16 which was also included in Dr. Glover’s book “Part 2, The Holmes Manuscript.
From Page 3 in Helen’s book, she wrote; “George Riley Roberts (1828-1884) was born in Virginia. (His grandfather fought in the Revolutionary War and was with George Washington at Valley Forge; he was killed by Indians near Middlesboro in 1835.) At age 15 George and brothers William, John and Thomas left for Mississippi where other family members were settled and owned a farm.
Jones County, Mississippi – George R. Roberts met his cousin Abraham H. Peeples (1826-1892). The pair became fast friends and allies.
In 1848 Peeples and Roberts, along with other family members went to Cairo, Illinois, to join with Peeple’s brother who ran a trade station there. No sooner had they arrived than word of the California Gold Rush reached them. The group decided to go.
George R. Roberts, his brothers, along with cousins Charles, Cyrus and Return left Illinois with A. H. Peeples and headed for Fort Hondo outside Castroville, Medina County, Texas, where a wagon train was assembling to join the Gold Rush.
Fort Hondo was about 5 miles from Castroville and was considered, the edge of civilization. It was also the jumping off point for the wagon trains.
At Castroville the group was joined by three other family members – Daniel, Mose and Gideon Roberts -who hailed from near Beaumont, Texas. The three were cousins of George Riley Roberts.
The wagon train consisted of 60 or 70 people, a good portion of whom were German immigrants, including a man named Jacob Waltz, who traveled to California with Roberts and Peeples.
According to Bob Corbin, this information was supplied to Helen by Kraig Roberts.
WOW! What a story. There are a lot of people, events and places you will be able to research and you should be able to put the genealogy together and figure out how George Riley’s son William, fits with Gideon Roberts.
BTW where did you find the information that Gideon Overall Roberds was a doctor?
Good Luck,
Garry
There is a lot of information on Gideon 16 in Helen Corbin’s book. There is a photo of Gideon 16 which was also included in Dr. Glover’s book “Part 2, The Holmes Manuscript.
From Page 3 in Helen’s book, she wrote; “George Riley Roberts (1828-1884) was born in Virginia. (His grandfather fought in the Revolutionary War and was with George Washington at Valley Forge; he was killed by Indians near Middlesboro in 1835.) At age 15 George and brothers William, John and Thomas left for Mississippi where other family members were settled and owned a farm.
Jones County, Mississippi – George R. Roberts met his cousin Abraham H. Peeples (1826-1892). The pair became fast friends and allies.
In 1848 Peeples and Roberts, along with other family members went to Cairo, Illinois, to join with Peeple’s brother who ran a trade station there. No sooner had they arrived than word of the California Gold Rush reached them. The group decided to go.
George R. Roberts, his brothers, along with cousins Charles, Cyrus and Return left Illinois with A. H. Peeples and headed for Fort Hondo outside Castroville, Medina County, Texas, where a wagon train was assembling to join the Gold Rush.
Fort Hondo was about 5 miles from Castroville and was considered, the edge of civilization. It was also the jumping off point for the wagon trains.
At Castroville the group was joined by three other family members – Daniel, Mose and Gideon Roberts -who hailed from near Beaumont, Texas. The three were cousins of George Riley Roberts.
The wagon train consisted of 60 or 70 people, a good portion of whom were German immigrants, including a man named Jacob Waltz, who traveled to California with Roberts and Peeples.
According to Bob Corbin, this information was supplied to Helen by Kraig Roberts.
WOW! What a story. There are a lot of people, events and places you will be able to research and you should be able to put the genealogy together and figure out how George Riley’s son William, fits with Gideon Roberts.
BTW where did you find the information that Gideon Overall Roberds was a doctor?
Good Luck,
Garry
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Hal Croves
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- Sep 25, 2010
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Gary,
It could be a misprint.
Arizona weekly enterprise. (Florence, Pinal County, Arizona Territory) 1881-1893, November 08, 1890, Image 4 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress
(Edit) Note A.J Peeples.
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...ext=&andtext=&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=2
If not a misprint, this might be Gideon Roberts.
The North-Carolina standard. (Raleigh, N.C.) 1834-1850, April 18, 1849, Image 2 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress
The North-Carolina standard. (Raleigh, N.C.) 1834-1850, February 19, 1845, Image 3 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress
Or, it could be Dr. Gideon M. Roberts who served in the war of 1862-65.
I wonder if this is the same Mose Roberts
?Mose Roberts ( - 1887) - Find A Grave Memorial
The Clifton clarion. (Clifton, Graham County, A.T., Ariz.) 1883-1889, September 14, 1887, Image 2 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress
The Clifton clarion. (Clifton, Graham County, A.T., Ariz.) 1883-1889, October 05, 1887, Image 2 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress
Arizona weekly citizen. (Tucson, Ariz) 1880-1901, August 27, 1892, Image 4 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress
Last edited:
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Hal Croves
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Gary,
Does he? Fit?
A "great uncle" is a very specific thing.
It could only be the brother of George Riley Roberts.
Gideon16 (1823) is the correct age to be the brother of George Riley Roberts (1828).
What I don't understand is the lack of a death certificate.
And lack of mention in the newspapers.
Do you know if anyone has tried contacting the Pioneer Cemetery Association?
They must be able to demonstrate exactly how they identified Gideon16 and when.
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Hal,
From what I have seen, It's not very difficult to add erroneous information into genealogy sites. That would include the most well respected and well known sites available.
Since coming on the LDM sites, back around 2002, I have had my eyes opened to this kind of manufactured family history.
I guess tall tales are all in fun and should just be taken with a grin and a shrug.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
From what I have seen, It's not very difficult to add erroneous information into genealogy sites. That would include the most well respected and well known sites available.
Since coming on the LDM sites, back around 2002, I have had my eyes opened to this kind of manufactured family history.
I guess tall tales are all in fun and should just be taken with a grin and a shrug.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
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Hal Croves
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- Sep 25, 2010
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cactusjumper,
Ya. But, its almost always detectable.
Fact checking from different sources is fairly effective.
But time consuming.
The question is, did George Riley Roberts have a brother named Gideon?
If he did not, then the "uncle" "great uncle" idea is done.
"At age 15 George and brothers William, John and Thomas left for Mississippi"
No brother Gideon here.
Here, Gideon is a cousin.
"three other family members – Daniel, Mose and Gideon Roberts -who hailed from near Beaumont, Texas. The three were cousins of George Riley Roberts."
Here, an uncle.
"There is no question as to who Gideon Roberts was, he is not Gideon O. Roberds (Roberts or John G Roberts or Samuel Roberts. It was Brownie Holmes brothers great uncle, Gideon Roberts, the man who is buried in Section XIII grave 16 in the Phoenix Pioneer Cemetery."
Not sure if one can be both?
I think that our answers sit with the Pioneer Cemetery Association.
markmar
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Hal
You get all titles at first blood level and you could be wrong .
Gideon O Roberts was first blood level cousin with William Roberts . So , Gideon O Roberts was second blood level uncle of Brownie Holmes brother .
You get all titles at first blood level and you could be wrong .
Gideon O Roberts was first blood level cousin with William Roberts . So , Gideon O Roberts was second blood level uncle of Brownie Holmes brother .
Could be.
I am not familiar with the three generation rule with cousins..
My grandparent's brothers I called "uncle".
My parent's brothers I call "uncle".
I have only ever called a cousin, a cousin.
Thou, in 1891 Arizona, uncle may have been used differently, like Sam, Tom, or Ben.
Simple Definition of uncle
- : the brother of your father or mother or the husband of your aunt
- —used as a word that you say when you are being hurt in a fight to show that you admit being defeated and do not want to continue fighting.
Uncle | Definition of Uncle by Merriam-Webster
hal....it would depend on if they were hillbillies or not..lol
Matthew Roberts
Bronze Member
Sorry and I don't want to interfere with Hal and his friends schedule but it might be helpful to those who are truly interested in the Pioneer Cemetery, the cemetery where Jacob Waltz is buried.
THE HISTORY OF PHOENIX CEMETERIES
This is a brief history of the cemeteries in the Phoenix area. It is an overview of a very complex history and does not cover every aspect of the overall history and is only for a reference of how things were and came to be today.
The first Phoenix cemetery was the Crosscut Cemetery at 47th Street and Van Buren on the north side of Van Buren Street. It was the old Mill City, Pumpkinville, Swilling, Helling’s Mill cemetery site.
The second cemetery was located in downtown Phoenix at the present day Phoenix boundary between Jackson and Madison and 5th and 7th avenues. Blocks 57 and 58 of the original town site. The site of today’s Maricopa County Jail.
On July 17, 1884 the west ½ of Block 32 Neahrs addition officially became the NEW Phoenix city cemetery. Today known as the Phoenix Pioneer and Military Park Cemetery. John R. Loosley moved the bodies from the old cemetery on Jackson and 5th Avenue to the new Phoenix cemetery at Jefferson and 15th Avenue. By July 1885 all the bodies were (supposedly) moved. Many bodies however remained at the old Jackson and 5th Avenue site and were uncovered in 2009 when the city expanded the County jail.
William Hancock surveyed the new cemetery (today’s Pioneer Cemetery) on April 1, 1882.
Frank DeMarlin was the Cemetery recorder in March 1887. Many other recorders followed.
James Richards also recorded some burials and sold plots in the 1880’s and 1890’s.
In 1890 the Salt River cemetery was established at 15th Avenue and Durango. Over the next decade some of the burials at the Salt River Cemetery were moved to the New Phoenix cemetery (Pioneer Cemetery).
In 1906 Greenwood Memorial Cemetery at 2300 W. Van Buren Street was established by the Mason’s Lodge and local churches. Almost immediately families began moving their loved ones from the Phoenix City Cemetery (Pioneer Cemetery) to Greenwood for burial. There is no official record of how many graves were moved to Greenwood because a fire destroyed many of the County cemetery records in 1951.
In 1947 the Shumway Brothers, Earl and Dow, established the Greenwood Memorial Park at the Greenwood Cemetery and in 1989 the two Greenwood cemeteries were combined.
From 1906 to 1930 the Phoenix City Cemetery on Jefferson and 17th Avenue (Pioneer Cemetery) fell into neglect and was abandoned. The last burial there was in 1914. The site became a dumping ground and camp for transients and the homeless.
In 1930, Thomas Hayden and several local families petitioned the city of Phoenix for possession of the City Cemetery (Pioneer Cemetery) and began the work of restoration. Hayden, Posey Moore-Nash and others began to compile records of burials in the cemetery dating back to 1884. By this time most of the grave markers which were made of wood were gone, either to the elements or burned by transients for cooking fires. Hayden co-founded the first Phoenix Cemetery Association (PCA) in 1932. All work to record and restore the old cemetery by the PCA came to an abrupt halt when Thomas Hayden suddenly died in 1940 and the war began a year later in 1941.
The old cemetery again fell into disrepair and was once again abandoned. Transients once again overtook the cemetery destroying what was left of the grave markers and in some cases dug up graves looking for money and jewelry. Several murders occurred in the cemetery between 1941 – 1980. The city tried on several occasions to clean up the cemetery but without funds the transients quickly reclaimed the cemetery as their home and camp.
In 1982, Bill Soderman, Algona Winslow, Marge West and several other family members who had ancestors buried in the Phoenix Cemetery (Pioneer Cemetery) again petitioned the city for the possession of the cemetery grounds. In 1983 West and Winslow once again co-founded the PCA, Thomas Hayden’s unfinished project. For the next 10 years Soderman, Winslow, West and a host of others gleaned early mortuary records, church records, newspaper articles, obituaries and family records trying to compile a record of burials in the old cemetery. This task was made daunting by the fact many burials had been moved to Greenwood and the original cemetery records had been destroyed in 1951.
In the mid 1980’s Marge West and Algona Winslow invited all the families who had ancestors buried in the old cemetery to come and share their records, photographs and oral history. Hundreds of some of Phoenix oldest families and many who were members of the “Phoenix First Families” Association came and shared their remembrances. Algona and Marge tape recorded many of the old timers.
Some 4,000 burials were eventually recorded in the Pioneer Cemetery and only about 200-300 grave markers remained, those being stone markers and many of them were badly deteriorated. The recording of burials in the old cemetery is still going on to this day as recordings are discovered.
In 1992 Mark Lamm spearheaded a ground penetration radar survey of all the graves in the cemetery. Each place of burial was recorded and matched to a known burial record. Many graves were found that still have to be identified.
Today the Phoenix Pioneer and Military Park Cemetery is an ongoing project which will not be completed for many years to come.
Matthew Roberts
THE HISTORY OF PHOENIX CEMETERIES
This is a brief history of the cemeteries in the Phoenix area. It is an overview of a very complex history and does not cover every aspect of the overall history and is only for a reference of how things were and came to be today.
The first Phoenix cemetery was the Crosscut Cemetery at 47th Street and Van Buren on the north side of Van Buren Street. It was the old Mill City, Pumpkinville, Swilling, Helling’s Mill cemetery site.
The second cemetery was located in downtown Phoenix at the present day Phoenix boundary between Jackson and Madison and 5th and 7th avenues. Blocks 57 and 58 of the original town site. The site of today’s Maricopa County Jail.
On July 17, 1884 the west ½ of Block 32 Neahrs addition officially became the NEW Phoenix city cemetery. Today known as the Phoenix Pioneer and Military Park Cemetery. John R. Loosley moved the bodies from the old cemetery on Jackson and 5th Avenue to the new Phoenix cemetery at Jefferson and 15th Avenue. By July 1885 all the bodies were (supposedly) moved. Many bodies however remained at the old Jackson and 5th Avenue site and were uncovered in 2009 when the city expanded the County jail.
William Hancock surveyed the new cemetery (today’s Pioneer Cemetery) on April 1, 1882.
Frank DeMarlin was the Cemetery recorder in March 1887. Many other recorders followed.
James Richards also recorded some burials and sold plots in the 1880’s and 1890’s.
In 1890 the Salt River cemetery was established at 15th Avenue and Durango. Over the next decade some of the burials at the Salt River Cemetery were moved to the New Phoenix cemetery (Pioneer Cemetery).
In 1906 Greenwood Memorial Cemetery at 2300 W. Van Buren Street was established by the Mason’s Lodge and local churches. Almost immediately families began moving their loved ones from the Phoenix City Cemetery (Pioneer Cemetery) to Greenwood for burial. There is no official record of how many graves were moved to Greenwood because a fire destroyed many of the County cemetery records in 1951.
In 1947 the Shumway Brothers, Earl and Dow, established the Greenwood Memorial Park at the Greenwood Cemetery and in 1989 the two Greenwood cemeteries were combined.
From 1906 to 1930 the Phoenix City Cemetery on Jefferson and 17th Avenue (Pioneer Cemetery) fell into neglect and was abandoned. The last burial there was in 1914. The site became a dumping ground and camp for transients and the homeless.
In 1930, Thomas Hayden and several local families petitioned the city of Phoenix for possession of the City Cemetery (Pioneer Cemetery) and began the work of restoration. Hayden, Posey Moore-Nash and others began to compile records of burials in the cemetery dating back to 1884. By this time most of the grave markers which were made of wood were gone, either to the elements or burned by transients for cooking fires. Hayden co-founded the first Phoenix Cemetery Association (PCA) in 1932. All work to record and restore the old cemetery by the PCA came to an abrupt halt when Thomas Hayden suddenly died in 1940 and the war began a year later in 1941.
The old cemetery again fell into disrepair and was once again abandoned. Transients once again overtook the cemetery destroying what was left of the grave markers and in some cases dug up graves looking for money and jewelry. Several murders occurred in the cemetery between 1941 – 1980. The city tried on several occasions to clean up the cemetery but without funds the transients quickly reclaimed the cemetery as their home and camp.
In 1982, Bill Soderman, Algona Winslow, Marge West and several other family members who had ancestors buried in the Phoenix Cemetery (Pioneer Cemetery) again petitioned the city for the possession of the cemetery grounds. In 1983 West and Winslow once again co-founded the PCA, Thomas Hayden’s unfinished project. For the next 10 years Soderman, Winslow, West and a host of others gleaned early mortuary records, church records, newspaper articles, obituaries and family records trying to compile a record of burials in the old cemetery. This task was made daunting by the fact many burials had been moved to Greenwood and the original cemetery records had been destroyed in 1951.
In the mid 1980’s Marge West and Algona Winslow invited all the families who had ancestors buried in the old cemetery to come and share their records, photographs and oral history. Hundreds of some of Phoenix oldest families and many who were members of the “Phoenix First Families” Association came and shared their remembrances. Algona and Marge tape recorded many of the old timers.
Some 4,000 burials were eventually recorded in the Pioneer Cemetery and only about 200-300 grave markers remained, those being stone markers and many of them were badly deteriorated. The recording of burials in the old cemetery is still going on to this day as recordings are discovered.
In 1992 Mark Lamm spearheaded a ground penetration radar survey of all the graves in the cemetery. Each place of burial was recorded and matched to a known burial record. Many graves were found that still have to be identified.
Today the Phoenix Pioneer and Military Park Cemetery is an ongoing project which will not be completed for many years to come.
Matthew Roberts
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Hal Croves
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- Sep 25, 2010
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Matthew,
It seems that you have tossed me onto the unfriendly pile.
A disappointment for sure.
So, can you prove who Guiden16 was?
If you can, if you have some verifiable proof, this seems to be the time to share it.
I see no proof of a Gideon Roberts in grave 16 other than what is written on findagrave.com
No death certificate.
No report of him in the local papers.
No file on him in the Maricopa Recorders digital collection.
The PCA must be able to explain how they identified Gideon16.
Simple enough.
And they might.
Explain.
I will ask.
Why that should bother you I honestly don't have a clue.
It seems that you have tossed me onto the unfriendly pile.
A disappointment for sure.
So, can you prove who Guiden16 was?
If you can, if you have some verifiable proof, this seems to be the time to share it.
I see no proof of a Gideon Roberts in grave 16 other than what is written on findagrave.com
No death certificate.
No report of him in the local papers.
No file on him in the Maricopa Recorders digital collection.
The PCA must be able to explain how they identified Gideon16.
Simple enough.
And they might.
Explain.
I will ask.
Why that should bother you I honestly don't have a clue.
Last edited:
Matthew Roberts
Bronze Member
Hal Croves,
No one tossed you on the unfriendly pile. You crawled up there all on your own. A disappointment for sure.
And why you think I am bothered by anything you or your friends do or say is beyond me.
All I did was post an overview history of the Phoenix Pioneer Cemetery, Waltz's cemetery, for anyone who might be interested.
Your reply to that post is completely out of line.
My belief of the Holmes deathbed account, Gideon Roberts, Waltz and his gold, has not changed. That is my personal opinion. You can have a different opinion and it doesn't bother me in the least.
I told you in a post many pages back in your thread I would not interfere with you telling your story and I have kept my word.
Matthew Roberts
Matthew Roberts
Bronze Member
"And, you don't seem to be interested in convincing anyone."
Hal Croves,
You have hit the nail on the head. I am not interested in convincing anyone of anything. As I said, I have my own opinion and my own reason for my opinions. If anyone else believes me or doesn't believe me makes no difference whatsoever to me. It's not going to change my mind. You can hold any opinion you want and it makes no difference to me. I wouldn't try to change your mind for the world. This is your thread, not mine and I promised I wouldn't interfere with you telling your story.
It really is that simple.
Hal Croves,
You have hit the nail on the head. I am not interested in convincing anyone of anything. As I said, I have my own opinion and my own reason for my opinions. If anyone else believes me or doesn't believe me makes no difference whatsoever to me. It's not going to change my mind. You can hold any opinion you want and it makes no difference to me. I wouldn't try to change your mind for the world. This is your thread, not mine and I promised I wouldn't interfere with you telling your story.
It really is that simple.
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Hal Croves
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- Sep 25, 2010
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Matthew Roberts,
Your reaction to what I have posted about Dick Holmes and now Gideon Roberts is not at all what I had expected. I thought that you would have appreciated the effort and welcomed it by responding with proof of Gideon16's identity.
I don't think that is possible now for reasons only you understand and will leave it at that.
Best to you,
Hal
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Hal,
I could have bet on this kind of reaction, having seen the same thing many, many times. It all has to do with who's who in the LDM Zoo. You probably have no idea who the "friends" of yours are. When you try to find out the truth behind many of these stories, you can't help but ruffle feathers. Some folks are easy to offend, especially when the facts don't agree with what they believe. I know some will say that's me, but I don't get offended by opposing opinions. It just makes me dig deeper into historical facts.......like you are doing. In that process you will step on some very tender toes. You know why they are tender. Can't see any good reasons for you to stop.
Good luck,
Joe
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