very interested...
Si senor. mind if post a few on the Mexican version on the Apaches?
This is kind of off topic for the Sup's but Geronimo did occasionally go there & had weapon & food caches there. Great Grandpa (GG) known as Will Rice was a scout for about 6 months under General Crook. Most of the time was spent around Fort Whipple, Prescott & Camp Lincoln, Camp Verde (AZ), he scouted on the Battle @ Turret Peak but they did make a campaign down in SE Arizona. They stopped briefly @ Fort Bowie & went down to the Mexican border accomplishing very little except showing their faces to the settlers & giving them the delusion they were protected, then returned to Ft. Whipple. Later after his scouting contract was completed he returned to his family & along w/ his wife, children & a few other relatives were camped below Fort Apache when Geronimo & a few other 'Broncos' dropped in. Geronimo was 100% outlaw & took whatever he could from whoever including women & children, horses, guns, etc... him dropping into camp was not a friendly visit. He recognized GG as a scout & snarled a few words like 'traitor', 'white boys dog' & suddenly stopped when he heard a couple guns cock in the rocks nearby. Realizing GG had posted guards that had him flanked he ended the chat immediately & left. They never met again. GG despised Geronimo because unlike most Apaches he lied (most will simply refuse to discuss a subject instead) & kept the wars stirred up affecting other peaceful Apaches. In Geronimo's defense he was a peaceful Hataali (healer) until his wife, 3 children & mother were murdered in Mexico. His wife was his childhood sweetheart & he never got over it. Later he'd remarry & had 9 wives total, 7 were murdered by Whites or Mexicans, 1 divorced him, 1 outlived him. He had 3 children who survived but disowned a daughter who married a White man & lived somewhere in Mexico. Geronimo had a sweet tooth & often bought sugar in the mercantile in Wilcox, AZ. The mercantile recently closed & is for sale. GG accompanied other campaigns as a scout organized by King Woolsey but these were a civilian group, not military. I'll try to post other stories passed on by family in the correct forum if anyone is interested.
But this is not accounting for the fact that Juh, Nana, the great Victorio, Naichez, Magnus, Chihuahua and others, were just as eager to live free and unrestrained as Geronimo.IPUK
Many thanks for the above post.
I was under the impression that Ulzana/Jolsannie was the brother of Chihuahua rather than Geronimo, as all the records seem to suggest this and there is the recorded testimony of Chihuahua's son in the 1950s.
Zeb Streeter was the some time interpreter of the Apaches and I've come across this chap and his machinations.
In reality if the Chiricahua Reservation had continued after the great Cochise's passing, it would have been a real bone of contention between the US and the Mexican authorities, as the Apache would continue to raid into old Mexico at will and they would have the refuge of the Reserve. This was happening in Cochise's time and he tacitly encouraged it.
The Dragoons were a special place and I was privileged to have been there and to think the greatest of all Apaches, has it as his final resting place...
Whilst in captivity, good old Geronimo was questioned on where he had come across the best gold prospecting spots, he replied "The Guadelupes". Naiche knew all his father's, Cochise's trails, caches, camps etc., and he replied "The Sierra Madres". A Chiricahua who was with the final band in the 1880s, actually went back into the Sierras with a Norwegian ethnographer to try and make contact with the still 'free' Apache. He was also looking for a cave where they'd stored gold bars in a raid in years gone by.
Some really interesting stuff where the Chiricahua are involved.
IPUK
Hello interested party. The Dragoons are a magnificent mountain range and I've hiked them a few times. Counsel Rock is in there where the great Cochise planned his strategy against his oppressors.
In the Chiricahua's I've also had the pleasure of camping in and hiking. Looking for Geronimo's canyon of the future where he received his "Visions" that told him he would not be killed by white men's bullets.
The Chiricahua's are just south of the Dos Cabezas range and near Fort Bowie where I once found the grave site of one of Geronimo's sons named Little Robe. Little Robe was killed by Mexican Raiders and Geronimo hated the Mexicans for murdering his family. He went on a killing spree and slaughtered many Mexican's for revenge.
Both Chief's would meet at Counsel Rock coordinating attacks and raids. The Chiricahua's now are a tourist attraction and most parts are off limits for motorized vehicles. The mountains still sport Bear and Lion and can be a dangerous place to go without a weapon. Not to mention Gun Running Narco's and illegal border crossers.
Arizona was and still is a harsh place to live. Even for the Apache.
On the Apache problem, there was no excuse for raiding and killing except for loot and too damn lazy to raise food themselves.
Incientally our surveyor was a pure blood Apache, his mother was involved in the later Apache wars
The Apache raided far into Mexico, which never was part of Apache lend, They raided from the 1400's on, eventually becoing such a nuscience that the Mexican gov't started putting a bounty on Apache scalps. Geronimo's raids caused his own family's wipe out
The Apache quickly learned of the attrition factor in braves, that it took 17 18 years to replace a brave, and so developed the ambush technique, they would fire a volley of arrows or bullets and depending upon the effect, would determine if they just faded away or charged the wounded and bewildered men. They were specially adapt in carrying out their toruure, they were encouraged to believe that the longer they carried it out, the more spiritual energy would be trasferred.
And on.
Appol mi Injun bro. me part Mohican, twas a long cold winter,sidesas I told my injun bro 'she was darn cute'.
The apache never raided into the Yaqui territroy, they quickly learned who was the superior fighter
No, the poor persecuted Apache who was fighting for survival myth, is gone, in fact the Majority of the apache were peaceful people who paid the price of a few lazy ones that were simply put, thieves, who killed for whatever they wanted, no different than from some of todays drug gangs.
Don Jose,
It's difficult for those living today to judge the Apache or any other tribe from past era's. In those days, tribes established their "land" by being stronger than the people living there when they came. When we came along, we pushed them all out. That's how countries were born. I think the only tribe we never defeated, was the Seminole.
Not sure I would ever call the majority of the early Apache......"peaceful people". They existed by, for the most part, raiding other tribes who earned their living with hard work. Towards the end, most were peaceful.
Take care,
Joe
Many thanks for the above post.
I was under the impression that Ulzana/Jolsannie was the brother of Chihuahua rather than Geronimo, as all the records seem to suggest this and there is the recorded testimony of Chihuahua's son in the 1950s.
Zeb Streeter was the some time interpreter of the Apaches and I've come across this chap and his machinations.
In reality if the Chiricahua Reservation had continued after the great Cochise's passing, it would have been a real bone of contention between the US and the Mexican authorities, as the Apache would continue to raid into old Mexico at will and they would have the refuge of the Reserve. This was happening in Cochise's time and he tacitly encouraged it.
The Dragoons were a special place and I was privileged to have been there and to think the greatest of all Apaches, has it as his final resting place...
Whilst in captivity, good old Geronimo was questioned on where he had come across the best gold prospecting spots, he replied "The Guadelupes". Naiche knew all his father's, Cochise's trails, caches, camps etc., and he replied "The Sierra Madres". A Chiricahua who was with the final band in the 1880s, actually went back into the Sierras with a Norwegian ethnographer to try and make contact with the still 'free' Apache. He was also looking for a cave where they'd stored gold bars in a raid in years gone by.
Some really interesting stuff where the Chiricahua are involved.
IPUK
I believe I saw one of Kino's maps that placed the tribes of the Superstition's as the "Moquies" just northwest above the San Carlos Apache of the Gila and Pedro rivers respectively. Could that have been an off shoot of the Apache?
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