Swung across one

fishstick

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Nice lil Kirk right on top of the homesite.
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fishstick

fishstick

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Gotta love it when they are just sitting for you. Good find
Unfortunately they don't turn ground anymore so it's the only way we get them lol. Back in the day I would have laughed at the thgt of walking a harvested bean field for rocks!!
 

CreekSide

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Unfortunately they don't turn ground anymore so it's the only way we get them lol. Back in the day I would have laughed at the thgt of walking a harvested bean field for rocks!!
Not much getting turned here either. One group of farmers still do it but they won’t let anyone walk their fields. Owner trumps their decisions but at the same time the farmers are leasing the fields. So most owners say I will ask the farmers. I just got permission to another field but I have to sign a release form which is fine with me.
 

ToddsPoint

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Nice snapped base Kirk, great find....
Are you implying this broken point was made with a “snapped base” on purpose? Why would a knapper chip a point, notch it, then break off the base? Occams razor says it’s simply a point that was hafted and then broken from use. Creating a non-existent artifact type is a good way to sell broken points as well.
 

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fishstick

fishstick

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Are you implying this broken point was made with a “snapped base” on purpose? Why would a knapper chip a point, notch it, then break off the base? Occams razor says it’s simply a point that was hafted and then broken from use. Creating a non-existent artifact type is a good way to sell broken points as well.
If it's a made up point type then why has it been called that in numerous publications? I've been pickin for almost 30 yrs and they've been called that since then.
 

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Are you implying this broken point was made with a “snapped base” on purpose? Why would a knapper chip a point, notch it, then break off the base? Occams razor says it’s simply a point that was hafted and then broken from use. Creating a non-existent artifact type is a good way to sell broken points as well.
It is a style that was napped that way intentionally.

 

ToddsPoint

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It is a style that was napped that way intentionally.

Like I said, it was a way to sell broken points. I’ve knapped over 20 yrs. First, I’d like to know how you would break off the base on purpose? The base would have to be secured and then pressure would have to be applied to the blade. The only way to do that would be to haft it in a handle then lean on the blade. This is exactly what happens when you overuse a standard hafted flint knife and it breaks. Second, please show me a picture or drawing of how you would haft a point with a “snapped base”? A base has to be thin to go in a split shaft. There would no way for it to be stable enough to use for a knife or a spear point. And lastly, every flint knife or point from paleo times to Mississippian times has a thinned base for hafting. Why would the makers of Kirk points be the only ones to do that? Experimental archaeology gives you better answers than something written in a book by someone who has never chipped a point.
 

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Then you better tell Overstreet and a bunch of other experts as they all agree they are intentionally done.

Strange how thousands of them always seem to snap and yet leave the barbs intact the same way.

Believe as you wish....
 

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ToddsPoint

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In the late 1800s, arkie Warren Moorehead wrote “Stone Age in N America “. In it, he mentions beveled early archaic points. He surmised they were made like that so they rotated traveling through the air. He coined the term “rotary spear”. People bought into that for a long time. We know now beveling is a specific way to resharpen a point. When Europeans first came to America, they tried to figure out how Indians made flint points. The consensus was that they heated flint and dripped water on it to create the chips. This belief lasted for many years until modern flintknappers came along. There were a few academics like Pope and Young that worked with Ishi who knew better, but by and large many people bought into the heat and water drip fantasy. You can find many published references to the rotary spear and water drip knapping method in old publications. The “snap base Kirk” is the same deal as above. My advice is get some flint and tools. Learn to knap and haft points and use them like the Indians did. Your eyes will be opened to things you never considered.
 

Treasure_Hunter

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In the late 1800s, arkie Warren Moorehead wrote “Stone Age in N America “. In it, he mentions beveled early archaic points. He surmised they were made like that so they rotated traveling through the air. He coined the term “rotary spear”. People bought into that for a long time. We know now beveling is a specific way to resharpen a point. When Europeans first came to America, they tried to figure out how Indians made flint points. The consensus was that they heated flint and dripped water on it to create the chips. This belief lasted for many years until modern flintknappers came along. There were a few academics like Pope and Young that worked with Ishi who knew better, but by and large many people bought into the heat and water drip fantasy. You can find many published references to the rotary spear and water drip knapping method in old publications. The “snap base Kirk” is the same deal as above. My advice is get some flint and tools. Learn to knap and haft points and use them like the Indians did. Your eyes will be opened to things you never considered.

As I said believe as you wish, too many have been found snapped the same way to be accidental, breaks at one of the strongest point of artifact, many with perfect tips and barbs, many after much use and all perfect snaps at same spot.

In the mid 80s through 2000 I use to go to the Mountain Men Rendezvous held in Missouri, lots of high quality freshly snapped points for sale there as well as leather made articles of clothing, bags, black powder accessories, firearms, hand forged knives and axes, modern made flint knives with handles from animal antlers, It was usually a 3 or 4 day event and it was lot of fun and very eductional.

 

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ToddsPoint

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The longer the base is on a point, the easier it is to break. It’s simple physics. More leverage with longer base puts more stress on the neck. The neck where the break occurs is the weakest spot, not the strongest.
 

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fishstick

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The longer the base is on a point, the easier it is to break. It’s simple physics. More leverage with longer base puts more stress on the neck. The neck where the break occurs is the weakest spot, not the strongest.
How come all of them are of the same style of Kirk, bigger and thicker compared to a corner notch Kirk?
 

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Nope, sorry I disagree, seen way too many of them with perfect points, barbs and blades, all fractured base points I have and seen are too well chipped and carefully made to just clumsy break it at the thickest point. Picture Fishstick posted has perfect tip and barbs. They were mostly used as knives or spears.

They are also primarily only found in one region of the country, were they only broken or clumsy in one area?

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We will just have to agree to disagree. :thumbsup:
 

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ToddsPoint

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Show me how you would haft that point with no base on a handle or spear. There is simply no war to secure it. This is where experimental archaeology comes in. Mount one of your “snapped base Kirk’s” on a handle or spear for me. Show me that I’m wrong. Prove it can be done and I’ll change my mind. I’ll even bet you $100 you can’t haft one of those secure enough to skin deer.
Nope, sorry I disagree, seen way too many of them with perfect points, barbs and blades, all fractured base points I have and seen are too well chipped and carefully made to just clumsy break it at the thickest point. Picture Fishstick posted has perfect tip and barbs. They were mostly used as knives or spears.

They are also primarily only found in one region of the country, were they only broken or clumsy in one area?

View attachment 2131165

We will just have to agree to disagree. :thumbsup:
 

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fishstick

fishstick

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Nobody is saying it was hafted without the base. From what I've read is they were design to snap so they couldn't be pulled out of their kill. I know that sounds strange but heck alot of it is still guess work which makes it fun
 

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Show me how you would haft that point with no base on a handle or spear. There is simply no war to secure it. This is where experimental archaeology comes in. Mount one of your “snapped base Kirk’s” on a handle or spear for me. Show me that I’m wrong. Prove it can be done and I’ll change my mind. I’ll even bet you $100 you can’t haft one of those secure enough to skin deer.
I stand by what I have already stated, strange they only broke in one area of the country, must have been all the clumsy natives lived only there.

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As stated earlier, we will have to just agree to disagree. 👍
 

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