The Battle Of Medina - an invitation to solve a mystery!

[Marc]

Hey my pleasure - we are talking about my birthplace. I would LOVE to nail down the location of that battle! Farther west!

 

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[texan connection]

I couldent read post 54 marc, is there a secret code?

 

[TXDIRTFISHER]

Texan Connection...what kind of bullet is that in the picture you posted (the more modern bullet)? I found one exactly like it beyond the field we started in just over the fence line. Sorry I didn't say goodbye before I took off. Everyone was so spread out it was hard to find anyone without walking 2 miles in every direction. It was a pleasure to meet you.

While we took a break for lunch we heard the story of a mass grave a few miles away (near a state marker). We didn't get a date for when it was discovered, but apparently it contained the bones of the bodies that fell during the battle. My thoughts were that if you had a mass grave the battle site would be close. Who would carry the bones of so many soldiers a great distance to bury them? No one would. So...if the mass grave contains the bones from the soldiers that fell in the battle, then the battle site must be near the grave.

Either way....if another trip comes up I'll be glad to help in any way I can.

 

[texan connection]

I dont know what kind of bullet that was, I found a dozen or so like it.
That place had more bullets than a park has pop tops.
I do agree if more of the info could come together I think the sight could be found, I heard alot of opinions about the battle from folks more knowlegebale than myself. Maybe a little better aranged plan, of course the land owners to deal with, no real help from archelogist, I think Dans doing great for what hes up agienst.
I wanted to pound that old homstead, beyond the fence, by that well- bad, it had some age to it. But the grass was to thick, and unfortunatly that wasent the agenda. I bet theres some old silver there.
Funny, right B-4 we hoped the fence we found a couple clad coins. The grass was just so thick...

 

[rmptr]

Great project!

I hope the publicity you did get allows you to continue in the search for the battle site.

R M P T R

 

[web-hed]

Had a great time there. Didn't find much other than contemporary items, but got to practice using my detector and met some cool people.

Found a nail, a modern bullet, some pieces of wire by the fence line, a metal fence post just like the one holding the current fence up along Toudouze road, some beer cans and a thick piece of wire.

I've added some pics including a curious bovine.

Bill

 

[ted750]

This sounds very interesting, it's to bad I'm stuck all the way up here in NY waiting for the ground to thaw.... I just had a few questions though. As far as I have learned, as an aspiring egyptologist, an artifact is worth very little without provenance and without knowing the level of habitation that the artifact was found in. I'm just not sure if an archaeological dig is the place for a metal detector. Don't get me wrong though! I love metal detecting and treasure hunting and all that jazz, but if it's going to be on a possibly historically significant site I'm not sure if it's the right way to approach it. The site should probably be gridded off and searched thoroughly layer by layer. Of course, I don't know the details. Maybe you'll do all that stuff once your sure this is where the battle was. All I know is that when I went on my first dig, I was told to leave my metal detector at home, in my experience, treasure hunters and archaeologists just don't get along. I don't want to come across as a downer or a knowitall, but I just thought I would bring up that point.
Thanks,
Ted

 

[texan connection]

Hi Ted,
This was a hunt to actually locate the battle field not excavate it. Even if the battle field is located its not likely a archelogical dig will take place, That takes money. Though the sight would certainly be of historical significance, I dont belive a excavation would take place except maybe if the actuall mass gravesight were discovered.
The first part of the battle was a running fight, probaly a few miles, the last part could have taken place on as much as 100 acres (who knows).
I read about the excavation of little big horn, and bet theres a link somewhere, that would probaly be a good comparison of how something like this would be explored once located.
Any archelogist would be wise to include a metal detector and the ability to use it in his bag of tools.

 

[texan connection]

Thanks for the pics web-hed and welcome to the forum.
Ya'll- Thats cooltone Tony in the white treasure net hat.

 

[cooltone23]

I got paparatzied, lo l!!! Awsome pics web hed.

Tony

 

[romeo-1]

If you guys find anything I am going to be in San Antonio in October on business...I would love to get together for a hunt. It's a long way from Nova Scotia, Canada and will probably be my only trip there...

 

[texan connection]

I belive you have 2 battles mixed up. The first was somwhere east of san antonio and was the battle of rosalis. The link is describing 2 battles.

 

[X-Terra70_TreasureHunter]

Hea everybody after talking to Robert Thorndoff who gave a presentation
on the Battle of Medina, i have scaled a map from Mapquest and if he is
correct the battle site would be located in the county of Atascosa and not Bear Co.

MEDINA, BATTLE OF. The battle of Medina was fought on August 18, 1813, between the republican forces of the Gutiérrez-Magee expedition under Gen. José Álvarez de Toledo y Dubois and a Spanish royalist army under Gen. Joaquín de Arredondo. This bloodiest battle ever fought on Texas soil took place twenty miles south of San Antonio in a sandy oak forest region then called el encinal de Medina.

Battle of Medina - El Encinal de Medina 1813

Aside from the siege at Presidio La Bahia, the bloodiest battle ever fought on Texas soil
took place in a sandy valley in present day Atascosa County, north of the Medina River in
1813

From the Center of the Star above Downtown San Antonio to the Arc is equal to 20 Miles which Mr Thorndoff talked about.
The Black + sign is in alignment w/ the center of down town San Antonio, Tx.

Valleys:

Atascosa, Valley's

Feature Type County USGS Topo Map Elevation Lat Lon
Fern Hollow Valley Atascosa Rossville 423 feet 29.014ºN 98.644ºW
Oak Hollow Valley Atascosa Pleasanton 328 feet 28.970ºN 98.441ºW
Purtle Hollow Valley Atascosa Leming 462 feet 29.089ºN 98.444ºW
Rutledge Hollow Valley Atascosa Poteet 400 feet 29.013ºN 98.569ºW
Tank Hollow Valley Atascosa Rossville 430 feet 29.018ºN 98.656ºW


Hi after finding out that Google Eath has a RULER that you can use to depict a distance
here the update from down town S.A. for the 20 mile distance

GALVAN CREEK. Galvan Creek rises in south central Bexar county (
at 29°11' N, 98°34' W) and runs southeast for 27½ miles to its mouth
on the Atascosa River, just east of Pleasanton in Atascosa County
(at 28°58' N, 98°27' W). Near the creek's source the terrain is flat to
rolling with local escarpments, surfaced by mostly deep, fine sandy
loams that support brush and grasses. Closer to the creek's mouth
locally active dune blowout areas begin to appear, and bunch grasses
grow in the sand along the creek banks. Land in the area is left as
forest or cultivated as dry crop land. Galvan Creek was known as
Arroyo de Galvan until around 1879. The area was settled as early
as 1858, and in the 1870s the creek had a steam gristmill on its banks
about six miles north of Pleasanton.

GALLINAS CREEK. Gallinas Creek rises three miles west of Oakhill Ranches
in southern Bexar County (at 29°11' N, 98°33' W) and runs southeast for
twelve miles to its mouth on Galvan Creek, two miles south of Leming in
northern Atascosa County (at 29°01' N, 98°28' W). It traverses flat to rolling
terrain surfaced by clay and sandy loam that supports mesquite and grasses.
The name is Spanish for "hens."

 

[texan connection]

One of the links I provided above speaks of The spanish general hiding his troops in Galvan creek, Thats around where your pinpointing, and soth of the sight searched last weekend. But the 20 mile thing is alittle debatable 20 miles from where exactly and was it 20 miles exactly, But my main question is this, where did the info of the "sandy valley in anasotia county " come from? that would be most intresting to know that scource.

 

[X-Terra70_TreasureHunter]

hi TEXAN Connection here is the Link:

link: http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/MM/qfm1.html


which describes the location and surrondings and distance from San Antonio, Tx.

by: Robert H. Thonhoff

Link #2 http://www.presidiolabahia.org/early_history.htm

scroll down to "Battle of Medina - El Encinal de Medina 1813"
and refer too 1st paragraph


The Large + sign only represents the line up in relationship to
San Antonio, Tx from the Left edge of the paper then took the
same measurement & placed it on the arc

 

[warsawdaddy]

Where is the reference of 20mi taken from?Todays city limits,,40yrs ago? when?

 

[KirkTN]

What is the piece of curved steel with the holes in a row? The reason I ask, is I found one earlier this week at a site here in TN where I also found a CW Navy Button, a Union Eagle "A" type artillery button, and another eagle button I've not identified yet. If you wan't I can take a piture of the piece I found that looks like the one on the truck Bed.

KirkTN

The medina hunt was alot of fun and the when we pulled up  I just knew instantly that this had to be the  sight, I pressed my hand aginst the window of the jeep, and  I was convinced......as  I could feel the payne... .
    Ok corny joke.
      Actually I am sorry to report nothing indicating this to be the sight was found, about the only thing possible to the time period were a couple low caliber balls.
    Alot, and I mean alot of bullets were found. No real old coins were reported either.
       It was not really prime hunting conditions (though the weather was perfect). The grass was to thick, but even so if it were the field someone would have found a clue, as there were about 30 detectors there.
   My top finds were 2 henry rifle cartridges.I dont think anything predated that.
      We left around 2, so unless something else developed after I left, thats all I know of.
    The local media was there and the hunt was well done and everyone behaved.
     The lost battle of medina remains lost...... for now.

 

[BlackX]

The methodology for metal detecting in archeology is well established. I'm not sure what procedures they followed here but there was an interesting joint archeologists/detectors hunt in Enland not too long ago. There, at least, each find was tagged by flags given to each detectorist and each location was measured with a theodolite or total station. I presume the detectorists also logged the depth of their finds.

This sounds very interesting, it's to bad I'm stuck all the way up here in NY waiting for the ground to thaw.... I just had a few questions though. As far as I have learned, as an aspiring egyptologist, an artifact is worth very little without provenance and without knowing the level of habitation that the artifact was found in. I'm just not sure if an archaeological dig is the place for a metal detector. Don't get me wrong though! I love metal detecting and treasure hunting and all that jazz, but if it's going to be on a possibly historically significant site I'm not sure if it's the right way to approach it. The site should probably be gridded off and searched thoroughly layer by layer. Of course, I don't know the details. Maybe you'll do all that stuff once your sure this is where the battle was. All I know is that when I went on my first dig, I was told to leave my metal detector at home, in my experience, treasure hunters and archaeologists just don't get along. I don't want to come across as a downer or a knowitall, but I just thought I would bring up that point.
Thanks,
Ted

 

[SPWalker]

To all:

I have had the opportunity to work with the National Park Service and the Texas Archaeological Association as a metal detector volunteer at protected archaeological sites here in Texas. In all situations a clear methodology was adhered too and all Md's followed strict guidelines. The last thing we wanted was to bring any questions concerning our (MD's) integrity as volunteers. I work for a state agency and as a results of my experience in this type of activity I was asked to write a specification that would provided an out line for an archaeologist to provide metal detecting services to state or federal agencies. The guidelines have been used in the past and alto not perfect are still evolving so known guidelines are used and available.

The site such as Madina is going to take a lot of volunteers and leg work if we ever find it. This is not the only group that has looked for it in the last year. If left up to a single intrest source to find the site, I have not doubt they would go broke due to time and vast areas to search. The approach that looks like has been used by this group has been to just find the site, once found the group will need to shut down and then approach the Texas Archaeological Association to hire a archaeologist. Once this can be achieved the archaeologist can approach the site to verify the site is in fact the actual site and to delineate the size of the site.

If we (MD's) can pull this off and find the site we can bring back into Texas history a threat of our historic past. This would be the best find I have ever been involved with and to show all over the nation that we are not what some archaeological types call 'POT DIGGERS'.

spwalker

 

[DJ_Quinn]

Lads, this is an awesome story! I MD becuase of my love of history. How exciting, and I would have loved to have been there.