The BIG Duper

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Rebel - KGC

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Unfortunately, "probably" just doesn't cut it. What is missing is something conclusive, something that can be proven. All else is just grasping at straws with the blind hope that something about the story is true. Given what we've been able to establish about the unknown author so far, could just as easily be that none of the story is true.

HA! Can YOU prove ANYTHING of "SPY-Craft"...? NSA...? CIA...? R & I last night, indicated that JPB burned all of his CW "papers" from his CSA "SPY" Service, & went into "exile" in England after the CONFEDERATE WAR... DANG! "Bits & Pieces" ARE still being found, tho...
 

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bigscoop

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Who was the Thomas J. Beale that showed up in the 1883 article concerning the Jackson Ward voting records in Richmond, VA., the thread that Jeff posted? And, who was the Robert Morriss that showed in the court records that Jeff posted? I'm thinking this may be worth your investigation.

In 1883 a Thomas J. Beale shows up in the 1883 voting records for Jackson Ward, Richmond VA., he is listed as an “alderman”.


“An alderman is a member of a municipal assembly or council in many jurisdictions founded upon English law. The term may be titular, denoting a high-ranking member of a borough or county council, a council member chosen by the elected members themselves rather than by popular vote, or a council member elected by voters.[1]
The title is derived from the Old English title of ealdorman, literally meaning "elder man", and was used by the chief nobles presiding over shires.
Similar titles exist in Germany and in Scandinavian countries, such as the German Ältermann, the Swedish Ålderman and the Danish Olderman, which all mean "elder man" or "wise man". It is possible that this harkens back to tribal societies, but since these terms were often used before written history, it is unknown how ancient they are. An Olderman could be a retired chieftain, or otherwise important member of the tribe who had retired due to old age. Such an elder was believed to have the advantage of the knowledge and experience of an old leader within a field, without having to challenge the new leader.”

At this same time there is a Robert Morriss, with proper spelling of the last name, also showing up in 1883 court records.
Given what we know about the unknown author and the manner in which he drafted his deceptive story, is it possible that this Thomas J. Beale is the unknown author? In other words, is it possible that the story something of a bio? If so it sure would explain a lot.
 

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Rebel - KGC

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Who was the Thomas J. Beale that showed up in the 1883 article concerning the Jackson Ward voting records in Richmond, VA., the thread that Jeff posted? And, who was the Robert Morriss that showed in the court records that Jeff posted? I'm thinking this may be worth your investigation.

In 1883 a Thomas J. Beale shows up in the 1883 voting records for Jackson Ward, Richmond VA., he is listed as an “alderman”.


“An alderman is a member of a municipal assembly or council in many jurisdictions founded upon English law. The term may be titular, denoting a high-ranking member of a borough or county council, a council member chosen by the elected members themselves rather than by popular vote, or a council member elected by voters.[1]
The title is derived from the Old English title of ealdorman, literally meaning "elder man", and was used by the chief nobles presiding over shires.
Similar titles exist in Germany and in Scandinavian countries, such as the German Ältermann, the Swedish Ålderman and the Danish Olderman, which all mean "elder man" or "wise man". It is possible that this harkens back to tribal societies, but since these terms were often used before written history, it is unknown how ancient they are. An Olderman could be a retired chieftain, or otherwise important member of the tribe who had retired due to old age. Such an elder was believed to have the advantage of the knowledge and experience of an old leader within a field, without having to challenge the new leader.”

At this same time there is a Robert Morriss, with proper spelling of the last name, also showing up in 1883 court records.
Given what we know about the unknown author and the manner in which he drafted his deceptive story, is it possible that this Thomas J. Beale is the unknown author? In other words, is it possible that the story something of a bio? If so it sure would explain a lot.

Possible... WHERE is the "Truth"...? Alderman sounds "official"; should be "on record" in Richmond, Va. I am NOT gonna look for it; YOU can...
 

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bigscoop

bigscoop

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Possible... WHERE is the "Truth"...? Alderman sounds "official"; should be "on record" in Richmond, Va. I am NOT gonna look for it; YOU can...

I just tossed the notion out there in case anyone wished to look into it. Perhaps there are some interesting parallels here.
 

Cryptography

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View attachment 1152483

First we number them according to their length, 1,2,3. Then we decode #2 and it tells us that #1 contains the locality of the vault and that #3 offers us the names and residences of the parties involved.

Wait a minute, how does #2 know that we have arranged #1 & #3 in the correct order? :laughing7:

Later, our unknown author even presents his #1 as being the locality of the vault and his #3 as offering us the names and residences of the parties involved, and yet there is no possible way he could know this for sure, and yet he is certain. This is placing quite a bit of blind confidence in #2, unless you already possessed the knowledge and your claim of numbering them according to their length is pure BS.

This is why you have to pick apart the details in the story so the little deceptions in the details can be exposed. Imagine, with absolutely no instruction at all, our author got these ciphers numbered in correct order simply by numbering them according to their length - and then #2 was smart enough to make the distinction. :laughing7:

I guess #2 contained smart technology beyond its years! :laughing7:

First, we number them according to their length. If we decode number one that has 700> letters. What have we done.
Wait, if number one is 700> letters and number two is 600> letters. Number three, 500> letters.

I am very new to the cypher, but if number one has 700> letters and we decode it first. This is the only one that is decoded by the DOI. Or at least has been decoded by the author.

I see what Jean has been talking about . If you decode the longest one first. And it tells us that the other two are page1 and page 3. Lo and behold, we have found page2.

Seems that simple deduction. Just like Sherlock Holmes used to do is our next step. Now we have a bit of a problem. Which of the two papers are page 1 and page 3. According to the story that I have read there are 30 members of this person's crew. If we look at addresses for today's person they are rather long. If we take a number like 25 and multiplied by 30 we get 750. So if it tells us page 3 is the names and addresses of 30 people. Logically looking at this. We should be able to say that page 3 is page with 600> the names and addresses.

Jean has emailed me about this issue. It seems he was interrupted in the middle of explaining. Not what he was saying but how he said it.

Thanks to Jean for letting me know about this error that BS had propagated. It seems that much learning has driven BS mad. I am just a simple person who runs a large company. My interest in this subject matter are purely for profit. If one day events lineup to make it possible to arrange for the extraction of this large sum of treasure. I will pursue it.
 

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First, we number them according to their length. If we decode number one that has 700> letters. What have we done.
Wait, if number one is 700> letters and number two is 600> letters. Number three, 500> letters.

I am very new to the cypher, but if number one has 700> letters and we decode it first. This is the only one that is decoded by the DOI. Or at least has been decoded by the author.

I see what Jean has been talking about . If you decode the longest one first. And it tells us that the other two are page1 and page 3. Lo and behold, we have found page2.

:laughing7:......You're still missing the real "duper" in what you're suggesting. How then, after supposedly determining which cipher was cipher number 2, did the unknown author determine which of the remaining ciphers were cipher #1 and cipher #3? You still have 2 "unknown" ciphers left that are only classified by the unknown author's numbering of them, not the original coder. All the alleged original coder has told us is that cipher number 1 offers the location and that cipher number 3 offers the residences. What he didn't do is tell you which of the remaining ciphers was number 1 & 3, "only your unknown author has told you this." Do you understand the issue now?

At no time did your alleged coder of the ciphers detail or number the ciphers in any order, this is why the unknown author was supposedly forced to number them according to their length so that the ciphers did maintain some measure of arrangement and order. "If he had not done this then by his own admission none of the ciphers would have been numbered 1,2, or 3 and there would have been no recognizable order at all." So you see, it is only your unknown author who has numbered the ciphers and placed them in numerical order, not the original coder, so how then, is it possible that the clear text of C2 knew exactly how the unknown author was going to arrange the ciphers? Clearly there is only one way this could happen, and that is only if the unknown author already knew what was in C2 before he numbered the other two ciphers. You must remember, the clear text for C2 was supposedly written years before the unknown author ever took possession and numbered the ciphers.

You would do yourself well not to place too much trust and blind faith in things that you clearly don't understand. What Jean has suggested isn't even consistent with the written story, but rather only his own personal desires and lack of understanding in the details offered him in the pamphlet. All one has to do is to read the story, what I am telling you is laid out in black and white in the unknown author's own words, and by his own admissions. "There is no possible way that the unknown author could have known for certain which of the remaining ciphers held the residences and which held the location unless he already knew what was in the clear text for C2 before he numbered the remaining ciphers." You should have no trouble understanding the real issue at hand now. Don't allow your own blind faith in this tale to lead you down a rabbit hole so easily. :thumbsup:

PS: The only other way the unknown author could be certain that he had the two remaining ciphers accurately identified is if he had already decoded them and/or he already knew what was contained in each. And if this is the case, then why doesn't the presented key and ciphers work when we attempt to apply the same decoding process he claims that he applied? There can only be one possible answer here as well.
 

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bigscoop

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If only Ward and Sherman could have known how their limited publication has led so many down the rabbit hole! :laughing9:

It is our inherent nature to want to believe in such tales so I think it can be safely said that this tale has lead us all down a rabbit hole or two at some point in our continued research of the tale. However, even though the evidence strongly suggest that the publication was just a simple dime novel we still can't rule out with 100% certainty that the unknown author of the tale hadn't lived, or held knowledge of, a similar experience at some point in his life and that he might be drawing upon that personal experience. All we can say for sure is that he crafted his tale with intended and designed deception, but to what true purpose he did this we still can't say for certain.
 

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Rebel - KGC

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First, we number them according to their length. If we decode number one that has 700> letters. What have we done.
Wait, if number one is 700> letters and number two is 600> letters. Number three, 500> letters.

I am very new to the cypher, but if number one has 700> letters and we decode it first. This is the only one that is decoded by the DOI. Or at least has been decoded by the author.

I see what Jean has been talking about . If you decode the longest one first. And it tells us that the other two are page1 and page 3. Lo and behold, we have found page2.

Seems that simple deduction. Just like Sherlock Holmes used to do is our next step. Now we have a bit of a problem. Which of the two papers are page 1 and page 3. According to the story that I have read there are 30 members of this person's crew. If we look at addresses for today's person they are rather long. If we take a number like 25 and multiplied by 30 we get 750. So if it tells us page 3 is the names and addresses of 30 people. Logically looking at this. We should be able to say that page 3 is page with 600> the names and addresses.

Jean has emailed me about this issue. It seems he was interrupted in the middle of explaining. Not what he was saying but how he said it.

Thanks to Jean for letting me know about this error that BS had propagated. It seems that much learning has driven BS mad. I am just a simple person who runs a large company. My interest in this subject matter are purely for profit. If one day events lineup to make it possible to arrange for the extraction of this large sum of treasure. I will pursue it.

"Much learning has driven BS mad"... ??? We DO know that SHERMAN went "mad" with BI-POLAR disorder; taken to Western State Hospital (for the "INSANE") by the Sheriff; SHERMAN died there & is buried in Roanoke, Virginia.
 

Cryptography

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:laughing7:......You're still missing the real "duper" in what you're suggesting. How then, after supposedly determining which cipher was cipher number 2, did the unknown author determine which of the remaining ciphers were cipher #1 and cipher #3? You still have 2 "unknown" ciphers left that are only classified by the unknown author's numbering of them, not the original coder. All the alleged original coder has told us is that cipher number 1 offers the location and that cipher number 3 offers the residences. What he didn't do is tell you which of the remaining ciphers was number 1 & 3, "only your unknown author has told you this." Do you understand the issue now?

At no time did your alleged coder of the ciphers detail or number the ciphers in any order, this is why the unknown author was supposedly forced to number them according to their length so that the ciphers did maintain some measure of arrangement and order. "If he had not done this then by his own admission none of the ciphers would have been numbered 1,2, or 3 and there would have been no recognizable order at all." So you see, it is only your unknown author who has numbered the ciphers and placed them in numerical order, not the original coder, so how then, is it possible that the clear text of C2 knew exactly how the unknown author was going to arrange the ciphers? Clearly there is only one way this could happen, and that is only if the unknown author already knew what was in C2 before he numbered the other two ciphers. You must remember, the clear text for C2 was supposedly written years before the unknown author ever took possession and numbered the ciphers.

You would do yourself well not to place too much trust and blind faith in things that you clearly don't understand. What Jean has suggested isn't even consistent with the written story, but rather only his own personal desires and lack of understanding in the details offered him in the pamphlet. All one has to do is to read the story, what I am telling you is laid out in black and white in the unknown author's own words, and by his own admissions. "There is no possible way that the unknown author could have known for certain which of the remaining ciphers held the residences and which held the location unless he already knew what was in the clear text for C2 before he numbered the remaining ciphers." You should have no trouble understanding the real issue at hand now. Don't allow your own blind faith in this tale to lead you down a rabbit hole so easily. :thumbsup:

PS: The only other way the unknown author could be certain that he had the two remaining ciphers accurately identified is if he had already decoded them and/or he already knew what was contained in each. And if this is the case, then why doesn't the presented key and ciphers work when we attempt to apply the same decoding process he claims that he applied? There can only be one possible answer here as well.


I see you seem to have a problem overthinking this thing. If we were to have two telephone books. One a town that has one resident and the other to have 30 residents. Which one do you think would be the larger document? I see your conundrum. It seems the faith that you have in the author is slim at best. The author of this pamphlet is not a very good writer. He seems to move back and forth between fax within the pamphlet. If I were to guess the author with the I would say it was a lawyer. It seems to me based on the facts that the author has a certain writing criteria within this pamphlet. If we apply lower criticism instead of higher criticism we may come to the conclusion that the author was writing from past experience, not in real time. In fact, it seems the events of his own personal experience with the document seem to be within a couple of years. If we were to believe that we're much smarter today than the people of the time this was written. We have become fools. I do understand why you think this is some sort of foolishness with this story in the pamphlet. It seems that you have some knowledge of fictional events and writing and it is possible that your knowledge is getting in the way of you being able to understand this document. I believe there comes a time when you need to take what is written at face value rather than tearing it down to every fictional possibility.

The main topic at hand here on this thread is the big Duper. I believe you have petrade that on this thread for some unknown reason, whether it be your theories. Or maybe you are writer who has written something about the topic and the events stated by the pamphlet. There seems to be more money in writing fictional material about the pamphlet and Thomas Beale then there is and actually searching for the treasure.
 

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bigscoop

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I see you seem to have a problem overthinking this thing. If we were to have two telephone books. One a town that has one resident and the other to have 30 residents. Which one do you think would be the larger document? I see your conundrum. It seems the faith that you have in the author is slim at best. The author of this pamphlet is not a very good writer. He seems to move back and forth between fax within the pamphlet. If I were to guess the author with the I would say it was a lawyer. It seems to me based on the facts that the author has a certain writing criteria within this pamphlet. If we apply lower criticism instead of higher criticism we may come to the conclusion that the author was writing from past experience, not in real time. In fact, it seems the events of his own personal experience with the document seem to be within a couple of years. If we were to believe that we're much smarter today than the people of the time this was written. We have become fools. I do understand why you think this is some sort of foolishness with this story in the pamphlet. It seems that you have some knowledge of fictional events and writing and it is possible that your knowledge is getting in the way of you being able to understand this document. I believe there comes a time when you need to take what is written at face value rather than tearing it down to every fictional possibility.

The main topic at hand here on this thread is the big Duper. I believe you have petrade that on this thread for some unknown reason, whether it be your theories. Or maybe you are writer who has written something about the topic and the events stated by the pamphlet. There seems to be more money in writing fictional material about the pamphlet and Thomas Beale then there is and actually searching for the treasure.

Cryptography, my friend, the problem is that you are far too focused on what I have put into writing and far too little focused on what the unknown author put into writing. Like Jean, you are a committed true believer despite the other facts before that you failed to realize before you committed, and so you keep trying to justify your obvious error. The good news is that you're not alone in this situation as many-many before you have passed down this same difficult road to reality. I fully suspect that we have all been there at some point in this mystery, which is why so many of us know differently today.

I can't lead a dying horse to water but I can tell you that my resources in this mystery run deep and that I have been at this a very long time now. And if you think this first round of reality is hard to accept, well, it's only the beginning as there is even more difficult realities awaiting you. Why would you want to pursue a treasure, or a story, that you can't even prove is real? First you have to establish that the story is authentic and credible. Have you done that for yourself? Or, are you just riding on the coat tails of other true believers?

PS: I assume you are of the impression that both of the remaining two ciphers were coded using the same process/design, when clearly they were not. This is just another of those stark realities that's going to come into play as you continue to cuddle the fantasy you're cuddling now. :thumbsup:
 

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franklin

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Cryptography, my friend, the problem is that you are far too focused on what I have put into writing and far too little focused on what the unknown author put into writing. Like Jean, you are a committed true believer despite the other facts before that you failed to realize before you committed, and so you keep trying to justify your obvious error. The good news is that you're not alone in this situation as many-many before you have passed down this same difficult road to reality. I fully suspect that we have all been there at some point in this mystery, which is why so many of us know differently today.

I can't lead a dying horse to water but I can tell you that my resources in this mystery run deep and that I have been at this a very long time now. And if you think this first round of reality is hard to accept, well, it's only the beginning as there is even more difficult realities awaiting you. Why would you want to pursue a treasure, or a story, that you can't even prove is real? First you have to establish that the story is authentic and credible. Have you done that for yourself? Or, are you just riding on the coat tails of other true believers?

PS: I assume you are of the impression that both of the remaining two ciphers were coded using the same process/design, when clearly they were not. This is just another of those stark realities that's going to come into play as you continue to cuddle the fantasy you're cuddling now. :thumbsup:

Bigscoop, You are correct. I have tried proving the Beale Treasure is real now since I was in the fifth grade and that was over fifty years ago. I still have no solid evidence. I research the Beale Treasure and work on it on the side-----hoping to find some sort of convincing evidence to actively pursue the treasure. I work on other treasures at the same time but I have more proof on them. I will continue working on the Beale Treasure in my spare time as an unproven treasure to find. The research on the Beale Treasure is addictive and time consuming----I simply pull off and work on another treasure. I hope others do the same thing. Don't go after the Beale Treasure as a primary treasure look at it as an alternative treasure.
 

Rebel - KGC

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It is our inherent nature to want to believe in such tales so I think it can be safely said that this tale has lead us all down a rabbit hole or two at some point in our continued research of the tale. However, even though the evidence strongly suggest that the publication was just a simple dime novel we still can't rule out with 100% certainty that the unknown author of the tale hadn't lived, or held knowledge of, a similar experience at some point in his life and that he might be drawing upon that personal experience. All we can say for sure is that he crafted his tale with intended and designed deception, but to what true purpose he did this we still can't say for certain.

TRUE Purpose... designed as a "COVER-STORY".
 

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