The day the silver died-- RIP --Southern Arizona

[7up2000]

Loomis has now calibrated their sorting machines to reject the silver nickels. This is a recent event. Therefore, all silver is being removed from Wells Fargo bank coinage(and other banks contracted with Loomis). All silver halves, quarters, dimes, and nickels are being eliminated at the Loomis distribution point. Yeah, it sucks. I am thoroughly bummed out. One of my favorite hobbies is gone. Wonder which area of the country will be next? The hobby is ruined for hundreds of people here in Southern Arizona. RIP

 

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[Liu21]

I live in Brooklyn, NY. I can drive 10 minutes north pick coins from one bank, which gets coins from one Coin facility. Then If i drive 5 mins south, pick up coins from any bank, the coins come from a different facility. Surely NOT all facility in any company culls silver or any coin for that matter, but to believe that not even one facility across the nation might be doing it. Is like believing teller's in any bank across the nation culls silver.... Who ever believes their coin facility is culling silver must be getting coins from a facility that might be culling or how do you explain the shortage? while someone from the same state and region, is getting silver. Southern AZ is a big place, and Im willing to bet there is at least 3-4 Loomis coin facility in that region alone..

 

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[LooseChange]

Put your preconceived notions aside for a moment.

Q: Is [are] L/B/G/D (Loomis/Brinks/Garda/Dunbar) intentionally CRH'ing on a commercial scale - either for themselves or for the FED?
A: Highly unlikely, less than remotely possible.
Discussion: Most of the arguments against this are in this thread. There is no reason to repeat them. What should be noted is that members of this forum are quick to believe that they (L/B/G/D) would "CRH" because we have a different kind of mind. If you can turn off your Ag-Seeking bias, you will realize how unlikely it is. Additionally, given that Brinks is currently still defending a 2013 lawsuit over off-sorting copper cents, it is unlikely that ANY coin terminal company (L/B/G/D) would implement a new program (or expand an existing one). Ex-auditor?s lawsuit alleges Brinks? coin-culling deal was fraud | The Columbus Dispatch

Q: Is [are] L/B/G/D UNintentionally culling 90% US silver as a result of improved denomination verification?
A: Entirely Plausible (but still somewhat speculative).
Discussion: Many automated counters/sorters reject 90% silver. Coinstars reject 90Ag as do many bank lobby machines. If the business model makes sense to reject foreign and counterfeit coin, the L/B/G/D machines will do that. If US 90Ag is rejected as a consequence, then... eh so be it (aka big wup!). It is more likely an annoyance to L/B/G/D if that is the case - as they would need to compensate the customer.

Q: Is [are] L/B/G/D intentionally or unintentionally culling 35% US War Nics?
A: Highly unlikely, less than remotely possible.
Discussion: The war nickel alloy has a relatively exotic element in the mix (35% silver, 56% copper, 9% manganese). What is the manganese for? It was the most practical way to create an alloy with a nearly identical inductive signature to the standard 75/25 CuproNickel coin. That was a requirement of the war nickel - to match a pre-war nickel's inductive signature. It was done to satisfy the vending industry that had an extensive deployment of coin acceptors that were tuned to the inductive signature of the CuproNickel 5cent. Because inductive signature is still the method used by coin discriminators, it is extremely unlikely that L/B/G/D are culling war nickels - either intentionally or unintentionally.

 

[ThePt78Gamer]

In regards to your last question with an answer LooseChange I do believe they could be unintentionally culling war nicks. My argument for this is that I know coinstar rejects them. A man was dumping coins near my register at my old job into a coinstar anf it consistently rejected his war nickel. That's all I have to say though. I don't live anywhere near Arizona and jist wanted to throw this out there.

 

[Liu21]

Put your preconceived notions aside for a moment.

Q: Is [are] L/B/G/D (Loomis/Brinks/Garda/Dunbar) intentionally CRH'ing on a commercial scale - either for themselves or for the FED?
A: Highly unlikely, less than remotely possible.
Discussion: Most of the arguments against this are in this thread. There is no reason to repeat them. What should be noted is that members of this forum are quick to believe that they (L/B/G/D) would "CRH" because we have a different kind of mind. If you can turn off your Ag-Seeking bias, you will realize how unlikely it is. Additionally, given that Brinks is currently still defending a 2013 lawsuit over off-sorting copper cents, it is unlikely that ANY coin terminal company (L/B/G/D) would implement a new program (or expand an existing one). Ex-auditor?s lawsuit alleges Brinks? coin-culling deal was fraud | The Columbus Dispatch

Q: Is [are] L/B/G/D UNintentionally culling 90% US silver as a result of improved denomination verification?
A: Entirely Plausible (but still somewhat speculative).
Discussion: Many automated counters/sorters reject 90% silver. Coinstars reject 90Ag as do many bank lobby machines. If the business model makes sense to reject foreign and counterfeit coin, the L/B/G/D machines will do that. If US 90Ag is rejected as a consequence, then... eh so be it (aka big wup!). It is more likely an annoyance to L/B/G/D if that is the case - as they would need to compensate the customer.

Q: Is [are] L/B/G/D intentionally or unintentionally culling 35% US War Nics?
A: Highly unlikely, less than remotely possible.
Discussion: The war nickel alloy has a relatively exotic element in the mix (35% silver, 56% copper, 9% manganese). What is the manganese for? It was the most practical way to create an alloy with a nearly identical inductive signature to the standard 75/25 CuproNickel coin. That was a requirement of the war nickel - to match a pre-war nickel's inductive signature. It was done to satisfy the vending industry that had an extensive deployment of coin acceptors that were tuned to the inductive signature of the CuproNickel 5cent. Because inductive signature is still the method used by coin discriminators, it is extremely unlikely that L/B/G/D are culling war nickels - either intentionally or unintentionally.

Are they culling silver on a national Scale? No. It would not be profitable for any major company like B,L,D,G...
Are they unintentionally culling silver? Highly likely, not at nation wide level, but it COULD happen at a local level. It is also HIGHLY likely that employee(s) are buying those silver coins at face from the cull bins etc.. This "Cull/buying at face" IS NOT happening on a nation wide scale as well. But CAN it happen locally in a isolated regional setting? HIGHLY LIKELY. All it takes is a Employee with knowledge of Silver coins, and the right connection in the facility's management, for this to happen. These facilities are no different from banks, Long as the book keeping numbers on spot on and customers (banks, etc) are taken care of, to Corporate everything is running smoothly in that facility.

Intentionally or unintentionally culling war nics? If i worked at any coin facility, i wouldn't care about them. Main focus would be on 90% silver coins... SO intentionally? No Unintentionally? No way, as ALL nickel's weight is 5 grams. Unless they have employees sorting nickels by hand before they dump it into the machine... LOL

 

[mxh5891]

In regards to your last question with an answer LooseChange I do believe they could be unintentionally culling war nicks. My argument for this is that I know coinstar rejects them. A man was dumping coins near my register at my old job into a coinstar anf it consistently rejected his war nickel. That's all I have to say though. I don't live anywhere near Arizona and jist wanted to throw this out there.

Could have just been a crusty war nickel. I have found plenty of silver in the reject slot of a coinstar. I have never found a war nickel in the reject slot. The reject slot is often full of sticky clad coins with some form of foreign substance on them.

 

[ceeemeee]

Could have just been a crusty war nickel. I have found plenty of silver in the reject slot of a coinstar. I have never found a war nickel in the reject slot. The reject slot is often full of sticky clad coins with some form of foreign substance on them.

Same. My silver coin machine reject finds for 2015: 25 dimes, 7 quarters, 1 90% Half, and 1 Foreign silver, 0 nickles.

 

[mxh5891]

Are they culling silver on a national Scale? No. It would not be profitable for any major company like B,L,D,G...
Are they unintentionally culling silver? Highly likely, not at nation wide level, but it COULD happen at a local level. It is also HIGHLY likely that employee(s) are buying those silver coins at face from the cull bins etc.. This "Cull/buying at face" IS NOT happening on a nation wide scale as well. But CAN it happen locally in a isolated regional setting? HIGHLY LIKELY. All it takes is a Employee with knowledge of Silver coins, and the right connection in the facility's management, for this to happen. These facilities are no different from banks, Long as the book keeping numbers on spot on and customers (banks, etc) are taken care of, to Corporate everything is running smoothly in that facility.

Intentionally or unintentionally culling war nics? If i worked at any coin facility, i wouldn't care about them. Main focus would be on 90% silver coins... SO intentionally? No Unintentionally? No way, as ALL nickel's weight is 5 grams. Unless they have employees sorting nickels by hand before they dump it into the machine... LOL

Do you know what the rules of a coin facility are for a fact, or are you just guessing they are similar to a banks? I would guess that coin facilities are on a pretty strict time crunch to get the coins in and out of the facility and any activity that would slow them down would be strictly forbidden. So activities such as switching out silver coins for clad would not be allowed. But that is just my guess, we all can have our opinions though.

I would think that a coin facility would be run like the mint. Do you think they would let any of their employees swap out coins for error coins?

 

[ThePt78Gamer]

It had to have been a fluke then. Because it wasn't dingy or anything. Just a regular war nick. My log on here (haven't updated it in a WHILE mind you) tells the story.

 

[Liu21]

Do you know what the rules of a coin facility are for a fact, or are you just guessing they are similar to a banks? I would guess that coin facilities are on a pretty strict time crunch to get the coins in and out of the facility and any activity that would slow them down would be strictly forbidden. So activities such as switching out silver coins for clad would not be allowed. But that is just my guess, we all can have our opinions though.

I would think that a coin facility would be run like the mint. Do you think they would let any of their employees swap out coins for error coins?

Our roads have strict speed limits but do ALL people follow them? Even the enforcers of those rules sometimes break them. Plus it does not take much time to swap out coins. The US mint is a different facility all together, If i was working there, i wouldnt think about doing such a thing, as Im pretty sure it pays better than what workers at a sort facility gets, not even a good comparison. If you look at the job posting by Brinks, Garda, etc.. you will see they are similar to working at a Bank.

Coin Processing Teller 1 - (16000163)

GardaWorld is seeking qualified individuals to work as Coin Tellers in our Cash Vault Services operation. Selected candidates are responsible for verifying all coin deposits received for processing and ensuring the deposits match the depositing customer’s amount declared on the coin deposit ticket. Coin Tellers may cross-train in other areas.

Responsibilities:
Performs all aspects of the coin deposit verification function.
Operates a jet scan to sort coin by denomination and to verify customer coin deposits.
Compares coin bags received against manifest to make sure all deposits are accounted for.
Enters verified coin into the CashTrak or other proprietary tracking system.
Cleans and maintains all coin equipment and ensures processing area is clean and clutter free.
Checks coin bags for foreign coin or non-coin items.
Checks all empty bags for unprocessed coin.
Sorts and loads coin on cart or pallet by bank.


Qualifications:
High School Diploma or equivalent
Cash handling and balancing experience highly desired.
1-2 years teller experience preferred
Must have strong data entry skills and experience.
Must be Detail-oriented with basic Math skills.
Experience working in a fast paced environment is a plus.
Ability to stand for long periods of time.
Ability to lift a minimum of 50 lbs.
Must be safety and security sensitive.


Processing Teller 1 - (16000168)

Responsible to report to Huddle work area at the schedule time and scheduled day. Receives and verifies assigned work. Inspect deposit bags for evidence of tampering. Notifies Supervisor of any noted issues. Performs deposit processing functions including reconciling any out-of-balance conditions. Maintains compliance with all company policies including state and federal regulations. Identifies Counterfeit, Suspicious Activity (SAR), and any potential AML Red Flag Transactions and immediately reports same to Supervisor. Meets or exceeds all established deposit processing productivity standards. Accurate cash settlements and transfer of funds to appropriate vaults. Works in an efficient and safe manner. Identifies and shares processing improvement opportunities. Work independently without direct supervision or oversight. Other duties as assigned. Identifies and shares processing improvement opportunities with site management.


Qualifications:
High School Diploma or equivalent
Cash handling and balancing experience highly desired.
1-2 years teller experience preferred
Must have strong data entry skills and experience.
Must be Detail-oriented with basic Math skills.
Experience working in a fast paced environment is a plus.
Ability to stand for long periods of time.
Ability to lift up to 50 lbs.

 

[mxh5891]

Our roads have strict speed limits but do ALL people follow them? Even the enforcers of those rules sometimes break them. Plus it does not take much time to swap out coins. The US mint is a different facility all together, If i was working there, i wouldnt think about doing such a thing, as Im pretty sure it pays better than what workers at a sort facility gets, not even a good comparison. If you look at the job posting by Brinks, Garda, etc.. you will see they are similar to working at a Bank.

Coin Processing Teller 1 - (16000163)

GardaWorld is seeking qualified individuals to work as Coin Tellers in our Cash Vault Services operation. Selected candidates are responsible for verifying all coin deposits received for processing and ensuring the deposits match the depositing customer’s amount declared on the coin deposit ticket. Coin Tellers may cross-train in other areas.

Responsibilities:
Performs all aspects of the coin deposit verification function.
Operates a jet scan to sort coin by denomination and to verify customer coin deposits.
Compares coin bags received against manifest to make sure all deposits are accounted for.
Enters verified coin into the CashTrak or other proprietary tracking system.
Cleans and maintains all coin equipment and ensures processing area is clean and clutter free.
Checks coin bags for foreign coin or non-coin items.
Checks all empty bags for unprocessed coin.
Sorts and loads coin on cart or pallet by bank.


Qualifications:
High School Diploma or equivalent
Cash handling and balancing experience highly desired.
1-2 years teller experience preferred
Must have strong data entry skills and experience.
Must be Detail-oriented with basic Math skills.
Experience working in a fast paced environment is a plus.
Ability to stand for long periods of time.
Ability to lift a minimum of 50 lbs.
Must be safety and security sensitive.


Processing Teller 1 - (16000168)

Responsible to report to Huddle work area at the schedule time and scheduled day. Receives and verifies assigned work. Inspect deposit bags for evidence of tampering. Notifies Supervisor of any noted issues. Performs deposit processing functions including reconciling any out-of-balance conditions. Maintains compliance with all company policies including state and federal regulations. Identifies Counterfeit, Suspicious Activity (SAR), and any potential AML Red Flag Transactions and immediately reports same to Supervisor. Meets or exceeds all established deposit processing productivity standards. Accurate cash settlements and transfer of funds to appropriate vaults. Works in an efficient and safe manner. Identifies and shares processing improvement opportunities. Work independently without direct supervision or oversight. Other duties as assigned. Identifies and shares processing improvement opportunities with site management.


Qualifications:
High School Diploma or equivalent
Cash handling and balancing experience highly desired.
1-2 years teller experience preferred
Must have strong data entry skills and experience.
Must be Detail-oriented with basic Math skills.
Experience working in a fast paced environment is a plus.
Ability to stand for long periods of time.
Ability to lift up to 50 lbs.

Why are you talking about the speed limit? We are talking about people swapping out coins in a coin facility. My statement about the mint is very accurate. Workers there are not allowed to touch any coins and everything they do is monitored. I am fairly confident that a coin counting facility would work the same way. Any time you work with money alot of precautions are taken.

If you look at the job descriptions, you proved my point that they have to work in a fast paced environment. So they will not have time to change out coins.

If it is so easy to swap out coins, don't you think everyone would be doing it? Then pretty soon every worker is so looking for silver and nothing gets done at the facility. More then likely there is a rule that they are not allowed to swap anything out. It would protect the facility from the count coming up wrong or any type of scam that someone could come up with.

 

[Liu21]

Yeah your statement about the US Mint is accurate, but it cannot be compared to and expect the same standards in a privately owned Coin sorting facility. Standards are higher at the US mint, because coins are "Made" which is legal tender, stuff like that are away under high security and strict policies are in place, It is about "Quality Control" As in preventing purposely made Error coins, or notes. Fast paced, does not always Means ALL the Time. I take it you decided to skip the part where it said "Checks coin bags for foreign coin or non-coin items. " It is easy to swap out coins, the problem How do you know the people who works at the facility understands the value in silver? and know that US Coins were made with silver in back then? Im willing to bet over half the population dont have a clue... Here is a experiment for you, take a 90% half dollar and head over to your local Walmart and start asking people if they know the value of the coin, and what it is made out of. get back to me with the results.

My speed limit is in reference to rules, which people tends to break. Just because a sort facility has rules, does not mean it is not broken...

 

[mxh5891]

Yeah your statement about the US Mint is accurate, but it cannot be compared to and expect the same standards in a privately owned Coin sorting facility. Standards are higher at the US mint, because coins are "Made" which is legal tender, stuff like that are away under high security and strict policies are in place, It is about "Quality Control" As in preventing purposely made Error coins, or notes. Fast paced, does not always Means ALL the Time. I take it you decided to skip the part where it said "Checks coin bags for foreign coin or non-coin items. " It is easy to swap out coins, the problem How do you know the people who works at the facility understands the value in silver? and know that US Coins were made with silver in back then? Im willing to bet over half the population dont have a clue... Here is a experiment for you, take a 90% half dollar and head over to your local Walmart and start asking people if they know the value of the coin, and what it is made out of. get back to me with the results.

My speed limit is in reference to rules, which people tends to break. Just because a sort facility has rules, does not mean it is not broken...

Let's be honest. You and I both know that if we were working there we wouldn't be able to resist swapping out every silver coin we saw. While it may happen on a tile you scale at certain facilities, the point I was arguing was that it is not something that is happening on arguing large scale like the OP says is happening at his Loomis facility in his area.

Your point about them checking bags for foreign coins and other items. I don't think they see checking them by hand, but that would be where I would be most tempted to swap out silver if I was working there. I bet they just mean, you do something with the foreign coins and other "things" out of the rejection bin and put them somewhere. What do you think they do with the foreign coins? I bet they sell them somewhere. Or else they or someone else is taking financial hit. This is a fast paced job though. A person wouldn't be able to sit there and count up all the silver coins rejected and then replace the exact number of coins taken out. More then likely they might be able to swap out one coin.

Please don't take my disagreeing with you as me thinking your thoughts are stupid. I wouldn't be shocked to find out that people are culling silver at facilities. I just don't think that they are able to do it with such high volume to get even a small fraction of what goes through their facility every day.

 

[LooseChange]

In regards to your last question with an answer LooseChange I do believe they could be unintentionally culling war nicks. My argument for this is that I know coinstar rejects them. A man was dumping coins near my register at my old job into a coinstar anf it consistently rejected his war nickel. That's all I have to say though. I don't live anywhere near Arizona and jist wanted to throw this out there.

I do not doubt that you have seen Coinstar consistently reject a specific war nickel. The possible reason(s) for the all-out rejection of that specific coin could include that it was because of the war nickel alloy. Or, an alternate reason. Or, a combination of reasons.

I have seen (first hand) a Coinstar accept a war nickel - I fed it on purpose as an experiment. That was a sample size 1 experiment, but it did agree with the prevailing theory that the war nickel alloy was purposely designed to match the 75/25 cupronickel.

You might wonder why I would willingly sacrifice a war nickel. It was not for science. It was to fuel my laziness.

If I know that I will be making an Amazon purchase of any significance, I dump to Coinstar for a fee-free Amazon gift card. I do that 1) to give my dump banks a break and 2) it makes searching loose dimes incredibly easy. That is because I dump loose dimes into Coinstar without any pre-searching whatsoever. I let Coinstar off-sort the silver for me.

I wanted to know if I could do the same with halves and nickels. I fed a 40% half and a war nickel into the feed chute along with a bunch of zinc cents. The 40% Kennedy was rejected (as I expected) and the Nickel was accepted. That experiment cost me about $1.50 ASW melt value. I had researched it ahead of time and expected to lose that nickel, but I wanted to be sure because searching nickels is so tedious.

 

[Liu21]

I'm simply stating that it is possible to cull and buy silver at face value. OP stated that he thinks they re culling silver at his local sort facility. Someone else from the same region perhaps the same area, stated that they have new machines that might unintentionally cull silver from the process. So the fact is they are culling silver. Now the most important thing is, are they buying it at face? If not where does the silver coins go? They don't simply get tossed into a bin that falls into a black hole, because accounting comes into play. That is one stage we both don't know For sure what happens. I for one believe it gets bought by someone(s), because if not there should be a slow and steady stream of silver when employees toss back the silver coins into circulation.

 

[scottw]

I would bet that if I actually worked at a processing plant I would see why there are not that many silvers.
Theres a whole lot more clad than silver, and the difference becomes greater every year they make clad and don't make silver.
As far as setting new equipment to separate the two, why would they want the hassle of resorting the rejects?
What are they gonna do, pay extra people to slow down their process?
How much silver a day would they need to find to pay even one or two extra people, let alone the price of new sorters?
They are too damn busy processing coin to gamble on finding the diminishing number of silver coins necessary to make it pay.
Is it possible to separate a small percentage of silver from clad large scale? Very likely.
Would it be profitable enough to gamble corporate capital? Not so much.

 

[SilverLunker]

I do not doubt that you have seen Coinstar consistently reject a specific war nickel. The possible reason(s) for the all-out rejection of that specific coin could include that it was because of the war nickel alloy. Or, an alternate reason. Or, a combination of reasons.

I have seen (first hand) a Coinstar accept a war nickel - I fed it on purpose as an experiment. That was a sample size 1 experiment, but it did agree with the prevailing theory that the war nickel alloy was purposely designed to match the 75/25 cupronickel.

You might wonder why I would willingly sacrifice a war nickel. It was not for science. It was to fuel my laziness.

If I know that I will be making an Amazon purchase of any significance, I dump to Coinstar for a fee-free Amazon gift card. I do that 1) to give my dump banks a break and 2) it makes searching loose dimes incredibly easy. That is because I dump loose dimes into Coinstar without any pre-searching whatsoever. I let Coinstar off-sort the silver for me.

I wanted to know if I could do the same with halves and nickels. I fed a 40% half and a war nickel into the feed chute along with a bunch of zinc cents. The 40% Kennedy was rejected (as I expected) and the Nickel was accepted. That experiment cost me about $1.50 ASW melt value. I had researched it ahead of time and expected to loose that nickel, but I wanted to be sure because searching nickels is so tedious.

I have limited access to a few coinstar machines (I'm friends with the store managers) and have seen first hand and have been able to swap out numerous silver dimes inside the reject cup that they keep inside the machine. But have also found plenty of silver dimes in the exterior reject slot (bought over $5 worth from a lady when I noticed she kept trying to feed her rejects thru).

 

[CTRollHunter]

I was in Tucson last week and looked through four boxes of nickels. I found two war nickels and four buffalos inc. A 1913 type I. The war nickels were from mwr loomis rolls. So at least some silver is getting through.

 

[LooseChange]

I have limited access to a few coinstar machines (I'm friends with the store managers) and have seen first hand and have been able to swap out numerous silver dimes inside the reject cup that they keep inside the machine. But have also found plenty of silver dimes in the exterior reject slot (bought over $5 worth from a lady when I noticed she kept trying to feed her rejects thru).

That's not a big surprise. The interior reject bin is supposed to be for magnetic coins (foreign and domestic), bent coins, coins of the wrong size, etc. However, it would not surprise me at all for any type of coin to be in that bin - including 90Ag dimes.

I am hugely curious of what else is usually in that reject bin. What is typical?

Ever find clad dimes in the inside reject bin?
Ever find silver quarters or halves in the inside reject bin?
Ever find a war nickel in the interior or exterior reject bin?

 

[SnakemanBill]

This idea of The Fed, Loomis, Garda or WF culling silver rears its head from time to time. It doesn't make any sense that they would do this now when silver prices are so low instead of instituting this practice years ago when the price was double what it is now.

 

[StrongAsZeus]

I'm so stinking new I don't even know what CWR means.! Ugh!