The day the silver died-- RIP --Southern Arizona

[7up2000]

Loomis has now calibrated their sorting machines to reject the silver nickels. This is a recent event. Therefore, all silver is being removed from Wells Fargo bank coinage(and other banks contracted with Loomis). All silver halves, quarters, dimes, and nickels are being eliminated at the Loomis distribution point. Yeah, it sucks. I am thoroughly bummed out. One of my favorite hobbies is gone. Wonder which area of the country will be next? The hobby is ruined for hundreds of people here in Southern Arizona. RIP

 

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[mxh5891]

I'm so stinking new I don't even know what CWR means.! Ugh!

CWR= Customer wrapped roll. As opposed to a MWR= machine wrapped roll that a coin facility rolls

 

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[SilverLunker]

That's not a big surprise. The interior reject bin is supposed to be for magnetic coins (foreign and domestic), bent coins, coins of the wrong size, etc. However, it would not surprise me at all for any type of coin to be in that bin - including 90Ag dimes.

I am hugely curious of what else is usually in that reject bin. What is typical?

Ever find clad dimes in the inside reject bin?
Ever find silver quarters or halves in the inside reject bin?
Ever find a war nickel in the interior or exterior reject bin?

The only silver I seem to find are dimes...although I did find a Morgan one time but that's because Coinstar doesn't except the large dollar coins (they all go to the internal reject cup). The majority of the coins are perfectly fine clad coins (I'm guessing that the clad is from something bent or foreign object getting jammed and thus the clad can't pass thru)

 

[SFBayArea]

I would bet that if I actually worked at a processing plant I would see why there are not that many silvers.
Theres a whole lot more clad than silver, and the difference becomes greater every year they make clad and don't make silver.
As far as setting new equipment to separate the two, why would they want the hassle of resorting the rejects?
What are they gonna do, pay extra people to slow down their process?
How much silver a day would they need to find to pay even one or two extra people, let alone the price of new sorters?
They are too damn busy processing coin to gamble on finding the diminishing number of silver coins necessary to make it pay.
Is it possible to separate a small percentage of silver from clad large scale? Very likely.
Would it be profitable enough to gamble corporate capital? Not so much.

Actually it's not an issue of decreasing silver per year for halves due to new clad coins. Very few new clads get made for halves.

In theory, one would think every year there's less and less silver due to new coins minted. The odd part is that when I opened a bank box of mixes pennies from circa 1981, I expected to find a lot of wheat cents. However although all the coins were copper cents, I found about the same average wheat cents as one finds for a box now. My theory is that just as new coins get minted, they replace older ones that get hidden in people's change jars that don't get turned in so it's not effecting the averages for silver found in circulation too much. Only during recession years when people turn in their coins jars, do the mintages for new coins become low. The height of the last recession (around 2009), I found CRHing averaging better than other years.

 

[SFBayArea]

I'm with Liu21 on this. When some here claim that it's hard to CRH on the job in a fast pace environment, that may or could be true for lowly workers but not for management level people.

It's simple, the machines spit out rejects into a bucket. Manager says to lowly worker to bring bucket of rejects after it's full to an area with no cameras. Manager can go about his business running the operation (approving time sheets of employees, creating reports of cash counted, etc) during regular hours. After his regular hours are done, he gets to sit back in his office and sort through the reject bucket. How many of you folks here wouldn't stay longer after work to CRH a reject bucket even if you are off the clock? I'm sure everyone would. I think too many folks here are just looking at general company policies and not thinking about what it'd actually be like to work at a place like that. It's not hard for a manager to CRH there.

The most important question here that is unanswered is what happens to the rejects or silver coins? I wish jrf30 would've asked the Loomis guy that. I would actually recommend the OP to ask Loomis in his area (if he thinks Loomis is culling coins) whether or not they are. If he gets an answer like jrf30 did, then ask what happens to the rejects. If it's true, then CRHing is pretty much dead for boxes. The only option at that point if the OP chooses, is to file a complaint to higher ups of the company. It might be grasping at straws but it's the only way things will get changed. If he says nothing, the area will continue to be bone dry for CRHing and he can pretty much kiss the hobby good-bye for the most part.

I think as machines wear down over time, it wouldn't surprise me as more areas adopt Coinstar type machines because they're newer and supposedly better because they reject unwanted or wanted coinage. People here can claim it'll never happen to them and think that culling by facilities is not possible. It is definitely possible. They do that in Canada. Wait till it happens to you, then you can come here to vent like the OP. CRHing will eventually get harder over time. Enjoy it now while it lasts.

 

[mxh5891]

Actually it's not an issue of decreasing silver per year for halves due to new clad coins. Very few new clads get made for halves.

In theory, one would think every year there's less and less silver due to new coins minted. The odd part is that when I opened a bank box of mixes pennies from circa 1981, I expected to find a lot of wheat cents. However although all the coins were copper cents, I found about the same average wheat cents as one finds for a box now. My theory is that just as new coins get minted, they replace older ones that get hidden in people's change jars that don't get turned in so it's not effecting the averages for silver found in circulation too much. Only during recession years when people turn in their coins jars, do the mintages for new coins become low. The height of the last recession (around 2009), I found CRHing averaging better than other years.

It's still not like people are turning in huge collections of silver halves everyday. What would you say the percentage of silver to clad is in a facility at any given time? Like 1 or 2 %?

 

[mxh5891]

I'm with Liu21 on this. When some here claim that it's hard to CRH on the job in a fast pace environment, that may or could be true for lowly workers but not for management level people.

It's simple, the machines spit out rejects into a bucket. Manager says to lowly worker to bring bucket of rejects after it's full to an area with no cameras. Manager can go about his business running the operation (approving time sheets of employees, creating reports of cash counted, etc) during regular hours. After his regular hours are done, he gets to sit back in his office and sort through the reject bucket. How many of you folks here wouldn't stay longer after work to CRH a reject bucket even if you are off the clock? I'm sure everyone would. I think too many folks here are just looking at general company policies and not thinking about what it'd actually be like to work at a place like that. It's not hard for a manager to CRH there.

The most important question here that is unanswered is what happens to the rejects or silver coins? I wish jrf30 would've asked the Loomis guy that. I would actually recommend the OP to ask Loomis in his area (if he thinks Loomis is culling coins) whether or not they are. If he gets an answer like jrf30 did, then ask what happens to the rejects. If it's true, then CRHing is pretty much dead for boxes. The only option at that point if the OP chooses, is to file a complaint to higher ups of the company. It might be grasping at straws but it's the only way things will get changed. If he says nothing, the area will continue to be bone dry for CRHing and he can pretty much kiss the hobby good-bye for the most part.

I think as machines wear down over time, it wouldn't surprise me as more areas adopt Coinstar type machines because they're newer and supposedly better because they reject unwanted or wanted coinage. People here can claim it'll never happen to them and think that culling by facilities is not possible. It is definitely possible. They do that in Canada. Wait till it happens to you, then you can come here to vent like the OP. CRHing will eventually get harder over time. Enjoy it now while it lasts.

I'm going to play Devils advocate with you here on your points. While it is possible for this to happen. Do we know if there are strict rules against this type of behavior of swapping out coins? If there are strict rules them all it will take is one lowly employee to rat him out and that manager is gone. I wonder if there are any areas of a coin facility that are not on camera. Even if there are, the employee will be seen carrying a bucket of rejects around areas where there are cameras and anybody watching would be mighty suspicious of why someone keeps carrying coins to a certain area every night.

As for CRH being dead if/when new silver culling machines are put in, you couldn't be more wrong, but I'm happy you think this way. That way there is less competition for me when I go into a bank and ask for CWR. Plus people who error search can still get boxes and CRH for errors, nickel hunters can search for buffalos, v nickels, and war nickels. Penny/cent hunters will still be able to find wheats/Indian heads and the many varieties and errors.

My only other point on the matter is if they do have these silver culling machines in Arizona and they are making so much money for years now since the first report of this happening. Why hasn't it spread to other areas of the country?

 

[SFBayArea]

I'm going to play Devils advocate with you here on your points. While it is possible for this to happen. Do we know if there are strict rules against this type of behavior of swapping out coins? If there are strict rules them all it will take is one lowly employee to rat him out and that manager is gone. I wonder if there are any areas of a coin facility that are not on camera. Even if there are, the employee will be seen carrying a bucket of rejects around areas where there are cameras and anybody watching would be mighty suspicious of why someone keeps carrying coins to a certain area every night.

As for CRH being dead if/when new silver culling machines are put in, you couldn't be more wrong, but I'm happy you think this way. That way there is less competition for me when I go into a bank and ask for CWR. Plus people who error search can still get boxes and CRH for errors, nickel hunters can search for buffalos, v nickels, and war nickels. Penny/cent hunters will still be able to find wheats/Indian heads and the many varieties and errors.

My only other point on the matter is if they do have these silver culling machines in Arizona and they are making so much money for years now since the first report of this happening. Why hasn't it spread to other areas of the country?

As I've mentioned previously, you think the company will automatically take the employee's side when ratting out a boss? What if it's the general manager (guy who runs the whole operation)? Good luck, that would be employee political suicide. I've seen and heard this happen many times where a lowly employer rats on their boss. Guess what happens, it becomes a employment nightmare for the employee. The employer can easily retaliate by firing or find some other way to retaliate (give negative evals, give employee unfavorable schedules, etc). The boss can easily go on a fishing trip to find a reason to fire the employee. What makes you think the company's HR will listen to the lowly employee? Most HR's will back management. I have seen this many times. They may listen to what the employee has to say but do absolutely nothing because as long as the counts are accurate and customers don't complain, why would they care? That's why my suggestion to the OP to possibly change anything about this CRH situation is to complain to corporate.

It sounds all ideal but really it's a headache and a nightmare for an employee to snitch. In California, the DLSE is the state agency that enforces employment laws.. if you complain to them, nothing gets done because it's the state with the backlog of cases, the employee will hear from them in 2 years if lucky. You'll never hear from them. The only recourse for the employee if he gets retaliated upon is to hire their own attorney. Who wants to go through all that? Again, I don't know the employment laws for AZ but some states are very employer friendly in terms of laws. I'm guessing AZ is probably employer friendly where the employee's rights are very very limited. Don't know if they have whistleblower laws for employees. If they do, it may be very limited to where this case may not even apply especially when there's no money being stolen.

Also why would the employee complain? If the lowly employee can't CRH, what is the benefit of snitching on their boss? They will never get that right anyhow. What if if the boss takes good care of them? Buys them candy, coffee, donuts, etc?

CRHing can always continue. You can go after CWR's but that's really it. You can search for errors but how many boxes do you have to search before finding one? It is worth the time and gas? You can ask the AZ members here what it's like to CRH in AZ. If I could only search boxes for buffalo nickels, errors, and wheat cents, I would definitely be cutting back on CRHing to a very minimum. It's not worth the time and gas for me to do that. I can count on one hand how many errors I've found through the years and I've been doing this hobby for over 15 years.

Why isn't this new change in machines all over the country? Simple, many folks don't know or may not be interested in CRHing. Some managesr may despise coin collecting and not be interested. Why do some members here get keepers from their favorite tellers? The tellers don't care about coins. I worked before once with a guy that did deliveries for Loomis. He said the job was physically tiring. I told him what my plan would be if I worked there (nothing illegal or against policy), he shrugged it off and didn't even care. He said that he hated coin deliveries. He said he sees and called bags of coins as "dead weight".

 

[mxh5891]

As I've mentioned previously, you think the company will automatically take the employee's side when ratting out a boss? What if it's the general manager (guy who runs the whole operation)? Good luck, that would be employee political suicide. I've seen and heard this happen many times where a lowly employer rats on their boss. Guess what happens, it becomes a employment nightmare for the employee. The employer can easily retaliate by firing or find some other way to retaliate (give negative evals, give employee unfavorable schedules, etc). The boss can easily go on a fishing trip to find a reason to fire the employee. What makes you think the company's HR will listen to the lowly employee? Most HR's will back management. I have seen this many times. They may listen to what the employee has to say but do absolutely nothing because as long as the counts are accurate and customers don't complain, why would they care? That's why my suggestion to the OP to possibly change anything about this CRH situation is to complain to corporate.

It sounds all ideal but really it's a headache and a nightmare for an employee to snitch. In California, the DLSE is the state agency that enforces employment laws.. if you complain to them, nothing gets done because it's the state with the backlog of cases, the employee will hear from them in 2 years if lucky. You'll never hear from them. The only recourse for the employee if he gets retaliated upon is to hire their own attorney. Who wants to go through all that? Again, I don't know the employment laws for AZ but some states are very employer friendly in terms of laws. I'm guessing AZ is probably employer friendly where the employee's rights are very very limited. Don't know if they have whistleblower laws for employees. If they do, it may be very limited to where this case may not even apply especially when there's no money being stolen.

Also why would the employee complain? If the lowly employee can't CRH, what is the benefit of snitching on their boss? They will never get that right anyhow. What if if the boss takes good care of them? Buys them candy, coffee, donuts, etc?

CRHing can always continue. You can go after CWR's but that's really it. You can search for errors but how many boxes do you have to search before finding one? It is worth the time and gas? You can ask the AZ members here what it's like to CRH in AZ. If I could only search boxes for buffalo nickels, errors, and wheat cents, I would definitely be cutting back on CRHing to a very minimum. It's not worth the time and gas for me to do that. I can count on one hand how many errors I've found through the years and I've been doing this hobby for over 15 years.

Why isn't this new change in machines all over the country? Simple, many folks don't know or may not be interested in CRHing. Some managesr may despise coin collecting and not be interested. Why do some members here get keepers from their favorite tellers? The tellers don't care about coins. I worked before once with a guy that did deliveries for Loomis. He said the job was physically tiring. I told him what my plan would be if I worked there (nothing illegal or against policy), he shrugged it off and didn't even care. He said that he hated coin deliveries. He said he sees and called bags of coins as "dead weight".

All those reason you pointed out for why an employee shouldn't rat out the manager are all valid points as to why the OP shouldn't complain to corperate.

The likelyhood of this being the only place in all of the country that a manager is culling all the silver from an area is pretty ridiculous. It would have spread to many other coin facilities by now. This rumor of coin facilities culling silver on purpose has been are around for years now. But all it is really is a way for bored people to try and scare others from coin roll hunting. They figure if they can trick other into believing there is no silver then they can search and find more. Problem is that everyone can see through this "story"

 

[Liu21]

It is unintentional culling, never said that they are intentionally culling silver. Just like how banks coin machine works they unintentionally cull silver because of the weight believing it is a foreign coin. At the end of the day when an employee goes to clear the machine whose to say that person is not taking the coins? If a employee does not know any better they might toss the silver quarter or dime back into the said bags, because they didn't know the value. You gotta stop thinking oh if they are making a killing on silver coins why aren't they doing it at other facilities? Other facilities might not know or have the right machines to unintentionally cull silver.

 

[mxh5891]

It is unintentional culling, never said that they are intentionally culling silver. Just like how banks coin machine works they unintentionally cull silver because of the weight believing it is a foreign coin. At the end of the day when an employee goes to clear the machine whose to say that person is not taking the coins? If a employee does not know any better they might toss the silver quarter or dime back into the said bags, because they didn't know the value. You gotta stop thinking oh if they are making a killing on silver coins why aren't they doing it at other facilities? Other facilities might not know or have the right machines to unintentionally cull silver.

You might not be, but others on here are talking about managers doing it on purpose. As for who is to say that an employee isn't taking the rejected silver coins home, that's the million dollar question. Does anybody know what the coin facilities do with foreign coins that are rejected? I'm sure they dont just throw them away. That's money out of their pockets and it would be bad business. So I'm sure the silver coins would be treated the same way. Maybe they are selling large bags of silver coins to the online coin dealers?

 

[Dozer D]

As I posted over a year ago, a friend of mine that works for Cummings Coin Sorters, said that the company HAS DEVELOPED a sorter that can extract silver with the flick of a switch, and that they are on the production line already. If that's so, it's no big thing to hit the switch to cull silver with NO EXTRA TIME CONSUMED. Therefore existing silver WILL BE DEPLETED by others, besides we CRH's.

 

[LooseChange]

... Manager says to lowly worker to bring bucket of rejects after it's full to an area with no cameras ... After his regular hours are done, he gets to sit back in his office and sort through the reject bucket...

How many of you folks here wouldn't stay longer after work to CRH a reject bucket even if you are off the clock? I'm sure everyone would. I think too many folks here are just looking at general company policies and not thinking about what it'd actually be like to work at a place like that. It's not hard for a manager to CRH there.

What a fun thing to fantasize about. That's it though - fantasy. Managers of coin sorting facilities do not pick through the sorter reject buckets while hiding in the janitor closet after work.

...
That's why my suggestion to the OP to possibly change anything about this CRH situation is to complain to corporate.

More fantasy.

Far too many CRH'ers do not recognize the reality of where they lie in the spectrum of bank customer. CRH'ers cannot influence corporate policy as it relates to supporting this hobby (regardless of how much they keep in their sham accounts).

The corporate decision makers should have some degree of caring about customer satisfaction as it relates to supplying cash/coin to businesses in support of legitimate business needs. However, it would be utterly foolish for a business (bank, coin terminal, etc) to make any sort of effort to cater to the CRH hobby. They will often do the right thing for real needs of real customers. Fact is, even with banks of which we are real customers, our CRH needs are not real needs.

No bank is going to try to put pressure on Loomis to change their policy by explaining that they have a customer who wants them to mix specific sorter rejects back in with the sorted product before it get rolled.

 

[SFBayArea]

What a fun thing to fantasize about. That's it though - fantasy. Managers of coin sorting facilities do not pick through the sorter reject buckets while hiding in the janitor closet after work.



More fantasy.

Far too many CRH'ers do not recognize the reality of where they lie in the spectrum of bank customer. CRH'ers cannot influence corporate policy as it relates to supporting this hobby (regardless of how much they keep in their sham accounts).

The corporate decision makers should have some degree of caring about customer satisfaction as it relates to supplying cash/coin to businesses in support of legitimate business needs. However, it would be utterly foolish for a business (bank, coin terminal, etc) to make any sort of effort to cater to the CRH hobby. They will often do the right thing for real needs of real customers. Fact is, even with banks of which we are real customers, our CRH needs are not real needs.

No bank is going to try to put pressure on Loomis to change their policy by explaining that they have a customer who wants them to mix specific sorter rejects back in with the sorted product before it get rolled.

LOL... Really? Managers are gonna sit in janitor's closet to CRH? Why would they do that when they can sit in their own personal office where there are no cameras?

Why would the OP ever mention his own CRH hobby when complaining? Why bring that out there? I'm sure the OP or most people are smarter than that. They just have to complain that the manager there is breaking company policy. Where the lowly employees can't CRH but management does. That's all they have to complain about.

 

[Liu21]

You might not be, but others on here are talking about managers doing it on purpose. As for who is to say that an employee isn't taking the rejected silver coins home, that's the million dollar question. Does anybody know what the coin facilities do with foreign coins that are rejected? I'm sure they dont just throw them away. That's money out of their pockets and it would be bad business. So I'm sure the silver coins would be treated the same way. Maybe they are selling large bags of silver coins to the online coin dealers?

maybe not taking the bin to a secret room and sorting, but if everyone that works in the facility is in on it. there is no need to secretly sort, they can do it as they go along. Walk by the bin and see some silver? take it out and and put it aside, at the end of the day, everyone chip in to buy the silver. Better yet Its monday? mxh5891 gets to buy the pot of silver at face. If that is the case, there is no need to worry about cameras. Remember they have a job to do, that is to sort coins, roll them and inventory them, and long as everything in the facility is working/going smoothly, inventory is balanced. Regional Manager and Corporate people have no need to "audit" or do a quality inspection of the facility. Oh and Im sure no one here wants to be a snitch, and ruin the benefit of face value silver for everyone right? Or I could be wrong, and they got a bin FULL of silver halves at the facility where OP gets his coins, they're just sitting there unaccounted for, and not pair of any balance...

 

[Liu21]

This is a good thread, I guess we will NEVER know for sure. Unless OP or the other guy with 100 skunk boxes, make it their mission to get a job at the Loomis facility.. LOL

 

[SFBayArea]

All those reason you pointed out for why an employee shouldn't rat out the manager are all valid points as to why the OP shouldn't complain to corperate.

The likelyhood of this being the only place in all of the country that a manager is culling all the silver from an area is pretty ridiculous. It would have spread to many other coin facilities by now. This rumor of coin facilities culling silver on purpose has been are around for years now. But all it is really is a way for bored people to try and scare others from coin roll hunting. They figure if they can trick other into believing there is no silver then they can search and find more. Problem is that everyone can see through this "story"

No.. the OP can complain to corporate all he wants. He can even do it anonymously. He's not an employee there. He's not gonna lose his job if he snitches on the boss because he doesn't work there. There's very little repercussions. Like I've discussed on another thread, I've complained about a bank manager by calling corporate before. Nothing happened to me. Actually that was for my order bank national chain. I just don't go back to that particular branch but the overall service from that chain has been good to me. It's up to the OP, but I'm just saying it doesn't hurt to complain. He has nothing to lose by complaining. Otherwise he can just keep CRHing in skunksville.

I can't recall where I heard it from but I believe it was on some forum thread (not sure if it was this forum) but I recall someone mentioning someone that got to take home keepers at a facility. In the end the person got a nice down payment on a house. Don't know if it's true or not.

I don't live in AZ but I'm only relaying on what the OP and jrf30 says because they live there. You don't know either since you don't live there. I'm just pointing out suggestions if I lived there and had to deal with being in skunksville.

The smart thing for any manager who culls personally at a coin facility is to let some go back in the wild. Let there still be some silver, so no complaints from CRHers and long term he can still accumulate. I know that not everyone thinks like that. People often want it all and want it all now.

 

[diggummup]

I guess we will NEVER know for sure. Unless OP or the other guy with 100 skunk boxes, make it their mission to get a job at the Loomis facility.. LOL

Exactly. Until then it's all hot air, useless hot air. Kind of like some of the replies on this thread.
As someone who contract does work for a large US corporation with many many locations, I can tell you that there are set standards in place that every store has to abide by. If one store operates a certain way, then all locations will run that same exact way. I'm sure Loomis is the same way. Your not gonna have managers Bill & Ted in southern Arizona operating rogue at one facility, without corporate finding out. If it's being done, it's being done at all facilities. If not then Bill & Ted will soon be out of a job.

 

[Liu21]

Exactly. Until then it's all hot air, useless hot air. Kind of like some of the replies on this thread.
As someone who contract does work for a large US corporation with many many locations, I can tell you that there are set standards in place that every store has to abide by. If one store operates a certain way, then all locations will run that same exact way. I'm sure Loomis is the same way. Your not gonna have managers Bill & Ted in southern Arizona operating rogue at one facility, without corporate finding out. If it's being done, it's being done at all facilities. If not then Bill & Ted will soon be out of a job.

Umm, not true. When I worked at dominos pizza, back in 2010/11. The system was setup where we assign orders to our name, and we were suppose to take those orders and go deliver them. How ever the manager there did not do that, in order to meet the speed and deliver requirements. We would randomly assign orders to anyone's name, then take what ever order that was on the ready table... We did things not by the book, that worked faster so the store looked like it was operating on or above standard. When the regional manager showed up for a visit, we did things the right way... No one complained or anything... Just because it's by the books does not mean it is always followed. Even police academies operate in the same way, they teach you all the fancy stuff in the academy, but it is the streets where you learn how to be a cop.

 

[mxh5891]

Umm, not true. When I worked at dominos pizza, back in 2010/11. The system was setup where we assign orders to our name, and we were suppose to take those orders and go deliver them. How ever the manager there did not do that, in order to meet the speed and deliver requirements. We would randomly assign orders to anyone's name, then take what ever order that was on the ready table... We did things not by the book, that worked faster so the store looked like it was operating on or above standard. When the regional manager showed up for a visit, we did things the right way... No one complained or anything... Just because it's by the books does not mean it is always followed. Even police academies operate in the same way, they teach you all the fancy stuff in the academy, but it is the streets where you learn how to be a cop.

Are you really comparing a coin facility that deals with money to a domino's pizza? They are two totally different types of businesses. Don't you think that rules might be a little more strict when employees deal with money? I would find it a much bigger deal if a $500 dollar box of halves goes missing, then if a pizza gets delivered slightly late.

Diggumup you made some great points. Your theory is most likely the correct one. I always find it to hard to believe that the Loomis in Arizona is the only place in the whole Country that has been culling silver on purpose/or not on purpose and made the whole area dry of silver.

 

[Liu21]

Im done here...