the everything site ...?

[Gossamer]

Would it be possible to repost the pic you are speaking of? The artwork on the canyon wall. I must have missed it, or maybe tell me what page or how long ago... sorry to bother... I'm interested in the Ancients. The lore and ideas about other civilisations.
I would appreciate your ideas.
Janiece

 

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[somehiker]

Gossamer:
Scroll the photo to the right---and look at the bottom of the cliff.He's about 30' high and about 500' up.He's got feathers,a bunch of round things painted on the wall under his arms,and teeth and he's above what seems to be the entrance to a cave with rock walls on either side of it.There are other things painted on the rock as well. The rock above is tan and black and the rock below is red with little hills on the slope in front.It's probably a painting of Quetzacoatl,the big guy of the gods of the Maya and Aztec,among others.But he is on a lumpy mountain with cactus all over it--- in the Superstitions,not in Mexico where he's supposed to be.And he's very old.
Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

That is why,Janiece,I think that the Apache would have considered this place an
"oh-oh zone".
Them Maya and Aztecs cut peoples hearts out to make this guy happy.

Regards:SH.

 

[Gossamer]

Ya' that would do it, can you imagine how it looked even a 100 yrs ago before the polution set in?
Janiece

 

[somehiker]

It would make a great movie set.A ceremonial fire out front with flaming torches at the sides,the rising smoke creating a haunting haze through which the mica-reflective pigments of the painted god can be seen by all.Throw in a priest with a big flint knife,a sacrificial victim about to make an organ donation to that night's festivities and a few pageant officials standing atop the mounds below,holding more flickering torches,while below the faithful chant....but I digress.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

SH,

I don't know if you have a painting of Quetzalcoatl, but would I be wrong in seeing a good deal of random coloration away from the main figure, which seems to match pretty well? Not having been there to see the thing in person, I realize it may not look the same as it does in a photograph. Since you were there, you would be the one who knows.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Joe:
Absolutely.And also notice that by sharpening the original photo and darkening it with your editor has revealed that the colors of the images are visibly somewhat darker than the random staining on the surrounding rock.The "images" however,certainly do not appear in any way to be the result of random coloring.
But that is just my opinion,not necessarily fact.Even if this proves to be nothing but a trick of nature,it is still an interesting feature,that so far,no one else has confirmed in word or print or by photo.That surprises me but if that means,to some folks,that it does not exist out there,that is fine by me.
I do not "own" a painting of Quetzalcoatl,but I have viewed a number of them and there are many variations.All have reptilian features and have feathers.

Regards:SH.

 

[Gossamer]

SH
How tall would you say the painting is? I saw something interesting in Joe's re-touch, I thought it made it tighter.
Janiece

 

[Cubfan64]

SH
How tall would you say the painting is? I saw something interesting in Joe's re-touch, I thought it made it tighter.
Janiece

I believe SH mentioned that he felt the feature is about 30' tall. I played around a little bit with your original photo as well SH and although there's no way on this side of the computer to make any definite conclusions, looking at it in B&W and Sepia makes it stand out in different ways as well.

As far as other similar coloration nearby, while I see some, I don't see nearly as much as in that one area. It would be interesting when you go back sometime to spend some time taking photos of the cliff wall all the way along for a distance on both sides and see if that kind of coloration or similar patterns seem to be consistent in the rocks in that area. Of course, I'm guessing that you already did that visually

 

[cactusjumper]

SH,

"Absolutely.And also notice that by sharpening the original photo and darkening it with your editor has revealed that the colors of the images are visibly somewhat darker than the random staining on the surrounding rock."

Actually, I thought much of the surrounding colors were darker than the image of Quetzalcoatl. Once again, seeing only the picture puts anyone trying to subjectively assess your theory, at a distinct disadvantage.

People have been trying to place Aztec peoples in Arizona for many years. As far as I know, that's still based on stories with little or nothing, in the way of solid evidence, to support it. I would not doubt that some trading could have been carried on, but anything else seems remote.

Anything taking place in the very sparsely populated Superstition Mountains, seems a bit of a stretch. Trade is a two way street, and there has never been much, that is readily obvious, that might lure the Aztecs into the deserts (fighting all the way) of Arizona.

Just my unqualified opinion, so I could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

I was standing on a little hill about 400' below and about 1400' away from the rock face when I made this shot at 5x zoom.I can only estimate the height at 25-30' overall by comparing the height of the bushes where I was with those that are visible in the photo.All of the bushes of the same kind seemed to be about the same height as well,waist high.I didn't try the "yardstick" method.
What Joe put up was a cropped version of my original that he had reworked slightly with a photo editor.That is why it appears to be "tighter".

Regards:SH.

 

[Gossamer]

Well I'm delighted with the pic and appreciate your efforts as I'm sure all of us do. What time of year was the shot taken?
I love the musings too.
Janiece

 

[cactusjumper]

SH,

For those who aren't sure what we are trying to see here, these pictures might help:

I have a number of books with pictures of paintings of Quetzalcoatl, but these were easy to find on the Internet. I can see, where your rock art has some resemblance. I would still need something more to convince me that the Aztecs were in the Superstitions, and finding them hospitable enough to hang around (literally) long enough to mark their visit with a thirty foot high painting of Quetzalcoatl.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Joe:
As always your opinions and points are well taken.As viewed on my monitor,your version appears to have darkened the images more than the surrounding markings.I might add that lighting plays a part in both the coloring and contrast of my original photo,as well as affecting any subsequent retouch.The area of the rock face that has the image is between two vertical breaks in the cliff,and is slightly cove-shaped.This would probably affect the colors in the frame as well.I think that the only way to determine whether or not this is "hand of man" will be to make the hike and the climb back.If it is some kind of "paint" and that paint was made from local material,then that should be evident.If it is just a natural feature,I will post the GPS co-ords so that all who are interested might make it a hike destination,and a lunch stop with a view.
As far as any belief that this is Aztec.I don't.But if it is real,and not natural,then it certainly would indicate that the history of the Superstitions as we know it,is incomplete.
I would not necessarily expect that the painting would match those on the codices,or even those on the walls of tombs/temples.After all,the canvas is not flat,or smooth and it's way up there.Probably wasn't even the same artist,or paint,maybe someone's first attempt at depicting the big guy.Might even be the first painting ever done of Quetzalcoatl.Don't mind me,I'm just musing again.

Janiece: the pic was taken in the first week of may 08.

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

Two pics of antiquities in museums that share similar artistic characteristics.
The first from Teotihuacan,part of a fresco now at the Smithsonian.
The second is Mixtec,which I included also because of the teeth,mainly.

Chemical studies of the paints that were commonly used by many mezo tribes indicate the use of minerals as pigments,minerals such as copper oxides and iron oxides which probably are also responsible for the random staining of the rockface.
SH.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Somehiker, not to cast aspersions on your photos as posted (it is most likely my eyes) but as you describe it, having wings and teeth, sounds more like a representation of a Thunderbird, not Quetzalcoatl. The Thunderbird is not an "import" from anywhere, since representations of it are found all over North America. Some have theorized that it is a memory from the Ice Age, when giant raptor birds (teratorns such as this Argentavis Magnificens)

...actually preyed on human beings, in particular children. Teratorns did persist in the Americas after the arrival of the first humans, so it is quite possible. Here is an example of a Thunderbird petroglyph

Working from memory (I could be wrong about this) but I think there was a story about Pima Indians telling Coronado that they had recently killed a "Thunderbird" that was living in a cave and taking their children, by burning it out. Anyway my money would be on a Thunderbird pictogram rather than Quetzalcoatl.

Oroblanco

 

[Gossamer]

I think its so interesting that the Sumerian 'gods' and the So. Am 'gods' all carry a little bag or sack with interesting things inside, kind of an ancient 'man purse' ohhh I couldn't resist.
Janiece

 

[somehiker]

Oro:
I think that you have probably figgered it out>slaps forehead.Now why didn't I get it?Thunder Mountain and thunder bird....Hmmm.Probably just apache art graffiti afterall.I just wish that I could find more of these paintings somewhere else in north america.

Janiece:I have seen many "little bags with interesting things in them" at sites that are sacred to native people.They leave them on the rocks and tie them to branches of trees etc.They are called "medicine bags".I have even left a couple in those places myself,although I am not native.It's a sign of respect and understanding for others' beliefs.

Regards:SH.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Somehiker - don't slap on my account - that is my guess on that pictogram, it would probably be better to get the opinion of an archaeologist on it (like our friend Scott Wood) before we "tag" it as a Thunderbird in fact.

Gossamer - I find it quite interesting how those ancient "gods" carried little bags (purses) with "magic" items in them, then in the Classical age we find folks carrying little leather bags around to hold their COINS (and hence our term "purse" from Punic "Byrsa" or "ox-hide" so did coins become MAGIC? We continue the tradition, carrying wallets and purses with our "magic" paper money and plastic cards, which we use to do "magic" and obtaining our wants and needs. Interesting for such a simple mind as me anyway!
Oroblanco

 

[somehiker]

Oro:
I suspect that Scott is still checking in from time to time.If he has any interest in this or that,I am sure that I will be hearing from him at some point in the future.
In the meantime he may be waiting to see what develops.He may even be quite aware of both this and the cave,from his own archaeological files.

Regards:SH.