The Knights Templar connection to Oak Island Challenge

[franklin]

I agree that the Norse were here . . . but not the Templars, nor any common Norse/Templar activity in North America.

Yep wrong again.

 

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[sasquash]

I agree that the Norse were here . . . but not the Templars, nor any common Norse/Templar activity in North America.

Some activities here,

https://www.facebook.com/gardecitoyenneduquebec/

http://www.franc-maconnerie.ca/autres-rites/commanderie-et-prieure-william-de-la-more-le-martyr-no-25/lordre-du-temple-au-canada/

 

[lokiblossom]

No documentation other than the Icelandic Sagas, only reasonable assumption. Templars and Norse were in close proximity in Scotland for almost 200 years, particularly in the areas of Nairn, which was certainly a Scandinavian settlement, also Mary Cutler and Aberdeen. The general content of the Sagas that had originated as oral stories was known quite well by most Norsemen and it would seem almost impossible that they wouldn't have had meaningful discussion with local Templars. As I have written many times, the map to Helluland, Markland and Vinland could have been drawn on a bar napkin.

Cheers, Loki

You're missing my point Charlie, which is in this quote. We were discussing how the Templars would have known about the New World. You claimed that the Templars in Scotland and the Norse were separated by some 200 years and I wrote "check the DNA, the Norse are still there (in Scotland)".

Cheers, Loki

 

[Smithbrown]

You are talking about one thousand years and more. While there is evidence for Scandinavian DNA in North East Scotland, it doesn't mean it came from the Norse. People in the North East have been communicating with Scandinavian sailors and the like for hundreds of years. And the population in the Orkneys and Shetlands are mainly Norse, but again, they move around. But they moved around in the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th centuries, too. And having Norse DNA doesn't mean you have knowledge about an unsuccess attempt at colonizing somewhere beyond Iceland some hundred years before. How many Templars were actually in Maryculter in the early 1300s?

 

[lokiblossom]

You are talking about one thousand years and more. While there is evidence for Scandinavian DNA in North East Scotland, it doesn't mean it came from the Norse. People in the North East have been communicating with Scandinavian sailors and the like for hundreds of years. And the population in the Orkneys and Shetlands are mainly Norse, but again, they move around. But they moved around in the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th centuries, too. And having Norse DNA doesn't mean you have knowledge about an unsuccess attempt at colonizing somewhere beyond Iceland some hundred years before. How many Templars were actually in Maryculter in the early 1300s?

How about Viking DNA in the Western Highlands? The colonizing and visiting of Greenland went well into the Templar years.

I don't know the number of Templars at Marycutler in the 1300's, perhaps you can tell me. I do know that they built a Chapel to St. Mary there as well as several lodgings and that they owned some 8500 acres. But, imho the number makes no difference, or does it?
And there were other houses, over a hundred, even in the 14th century people talked to each other.

My point is that most of educated Europe knew of a land to the West, the distance was the main question and a simple map of Viking routes could have been drawn on what would be a bar napkin today. Templars even had a tool the Vikings didn't, the "cross staff".

Cheers, Loki

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

You're missing my point Charlie, which is in this quote. We were discussing how the Templars would have known about the New World. You claimed that the Templars in Scotland and the Norse were separated by some 200 years and I wrote "check the DNA, the Norse are still there (in Scotland)".

Cheers, Loki

I thought we were talking about Oak Island.

OK, there was a Norse influence (repeated raids) and established residence in Scotland (from the early middle ages when the Danes ruled everything between York and London and then some and long before King Harold even) and later the Scottish "hosted" some former Temlars after the order broke up. History is pretty agreeable to that.

 

[Smithbrown]

It looks as though your knowledge of Scottish geography isas poor as your knowledge of London streets. It was you who started talkingabout North East Scotland, and now you have switched to the West coast. Howmany Templars are there?
The Highlands and Islands have a very different culturalhistory from the North East- taken first by the Irish Scots and then theNorwegians and do not come back into Scottish control until after the Battle ofLargs. But an area of mixed Gaelic and Scandinavian place-names andsettlements. North East is quite different- Norse attacks but no evidence ofsettlement- place-names Pictish, Gaelic and Scots-English. I doubt there were manycultural Scandinavians in Nairn or Aberdeen in 1300, chatting to Templars. There is a reason why the county of Sutherland has its name- it is the southernmost part of the Scottish mainland that came under Norse control, and its quite a bit north of Nairn, Maryculter or Aberdeen.
Now I am pretty certain we have discussed these 100 housesbefore. The impression I have is that when you say 100 houses, you arepicturing 100 monasteries, stuffed with Templars. This is not a true picture.These properties are gathered round about ten centres- none of them in thewestern isles or Highlands, by the way. They are basically properties fromwhich the Templars draw revenue, not where they lived. And you don’t even knowhow many Templars were in Scotland at any one time to have these fictitiousconversations with “Vikings”. Weren’t there only about 2 in 1310? There is noevidence of Templars hiding in Scotland- the Hospitallers took over theirproperties; doesn’t seem to have had much problems there.
I am not sure that all “educated Europeans” knew about landto the west, they may have known about Ultima Thule, but Greenland’s contactsare beginning to loosen at this period. Even the ties between Norway/Denmark andIceland were not as close. By 1300 the Hanseatic League were beginning tocontrol the trade between Iceland and Europe. Can you show us real, actual evidencethat the knowledge of Vinland was alive in Europe beyond Scandinavia.
Finally, if you are going to put any of this this in yourfamous book- I seem to recall you had finished it before you came here- fiveyears ago- has it been published yet? - I would learn to spell Maryculterproperly.

 

[lokiblossom]

It looks as though your knowledge of Scottish geography isas poor as your knowledge of London streets. It was you who started talkingabout North East Scotland, and now you have switched to the West coast. Howmany Templars are there?
The Highlands and Islands have a very different culturalhistory from the North East- taken first by the Irish Scots and then theNorwegians and do not come back into Scottish control until after the Battle ofLargs. But an area of mixed Gaelic and Scandinavian place-names andsettlements. North East is quite different- Norse attacks but no evidence ofsettlement- place-names Pictish, Gaelic and Scots-English. I doubt there were manycultural Scandinavians in Nairn or Aberdeen in 1300, chatting to Templars. There is a reason why the county of Sutherland has its name- it is the southernmost part of the Scottish mainland that came under Norse control, and its quite a bit north of Nairn, Maryculter or Aberdeen.
Now I am pretty certain we have discussed these 100 housesbefore. The impression I have is that when you say 100 houses, you arepicturing 100 monasteries, stuffed with Templars. This is not a true picture.These properties are gathered round about ten centres- none of them in thewestern isles or Highlands, by the way. They are basically properties fromwhich the Templars draw revenue, not where they lived. And you don’t even knowhow many Templars were in Scotland at any one time to have these fictitiousconversations with “Vikings”. Weren’t there only about 2 in 1310? There is noevidence of Templars hiding in Scotland- the Hospitallers took over theirproperties; doesn’t seem to have had much problems there.
I am not sure that all “educated Europeans” knew about landto the west, they may have known about Ultima Thule, but Greenland’s contactsare beginning to loosen at this period. Even the ties between Norway/Denmark andIceland were not as close. By 1300 the Hanseatic League were beginning tocontrol the trade between Iceland and Europe. Can you show us real, actual evidencethat the knowledge of Vinland was alive in Europe beyond Scandinavia.
Finally, if you are going to put any of this this in yourfamous book- I seem to recall you had finished it before you came here- fiveyears ago- has it been published yet? - I would learn to spell Maryculterproperly.

As I recall you posted a tube map for London streets, your sticking point was that nobody from Temple Church could have seen the Charing Cross, at less than 3/4 mile, being erected. When I mentioned being able to see people at one mile I believe you wrote that was impossible.

I do know West from East btw, and neither I nor you know how many Templars were in Scotland, but I am sure it was way more than two, with Maryculter, Balantrodoch and other sites probably in the hundreds. It is common knowledge that some who fled France went to Scotland.

I think you are actually referring to the two who were tried at Holyrood, but at the time, 1309, I believe, it was under English control and the two Templars were tried by English officials. The fact is that Scotland never arrested any Templars completely ignoring the Pope's order. One of the two tried at Holyrood actually testified that his superior had fled across the sea.
How many were housed at Balantrodoch?

In the Western Highlands of Scotland there is DNA evidence of Viking descent. My GG Grandmother was from Connel later moving to Paisley and the family has Norse traces from her. Even the Sinclair's of Roslin are said to have Norse roots.

It is also common knowledge that most educated Europeans did not believe in a flat earth, therefore there was land to the West.

As I mentioned before, my point here is only to show that the Templars could have easily received a map of the Viking routes to Vinland, A map that I've always maintained, today could have been drawn on a bar napkin.

No, the book (not famous btw, unless you knowing about it makes it famous) is not yet published being still a work in progress although I have published two other actual history books in the meantime, but thanks for asking.

Maryculter/ Maryculter/ Maryculter, did I get it right this time? How about a bonus for Peterculter?

IMHO, anyone who would think that Templars and Norse (at the very least descendants of Norse)did not communicate in Scotland is naive indeed.

Cheers, Loki

 

[sasquash]

If you look for Templar's presence in the New World may be you should look for that:

 

[franklin]

As I recall you posted a tube map for London streets, your sticking point was that nobody from Temple Church could have seen the Charing Cross, at less than 3/4 mile, being erected. When I mentioned being able to see people at one mile I believe you wrote that was impossible.

I do know West from East btw, and neither I nor you know how many Templars were in Scotland, but I am sure it was way more than two, with Maryculter, Balantrodoch and other sites probably in the hundreds. It is common knowledge that some who fled France went to Scotland.

I think you are actually referring to the two who were tried at Holyrood, but at the time, 1309, I believe, it was under English control and the two Templars were tried by English officials. The fact is that Scotland never arrested any Templars completely ignoring the Pope's order. One of the two tried at Holyrood actually testified that his superior had fled across the sea.
How many were housed at Balantrodoch?

In the Western Highlands of Scotland there is DNA evidence of Viking descent. My GG Grandmother was from Connel later moving to Paisley and the family has Norse traces from her. Even the Sinclair's of Roslin are said to have Norse roots.

It is also common knowledge that most educated Europeans did not believe in a flat earth, therefore there was land to the West.

As I mentioned before, my point here is only to show that the Templars could have easily received a map of the Viking routes to Vinland, A map that I've always maintained, today could have been drawn on a bar napkin.

No, the book (not famous btw, unless you knowing about it makes it famous) is not yet published being still a work in progress although I have published two other actual history books in the meantime, but thanks for asking.

Maryculter/ Maryculter/ Maryculter, did I get it right this time? How about a bonus for Peterculter?

IMHO, anyone who would think that Templars and Norse (at the very least descendants of Norse)did not communicate in Scotland is naive indeed.

Cheers, Loki

I would like to get a thought in here if I may? What was the first Grandmaster of the Knight's Templar? By that I mean when it was first formed. I know it went by a different name but who was the first leader of the Nine original Knight's? Hughes de Payne, am I not right? Where was his first son born? Where did he get married and to whom? Now tell me there were no Knight's Templar in Scotland? There were hundreds of them. I have at least 300 of their names. I even have names of Knight's that came over to Nova Scotia in 1357 and stayed over here. I even have the names of some that died. Some that stayed at Westport, Mass. and New Port, R. I. also New Ross, Nova Scotia. Also the name of one of the Knight's Templar that was killed near Kinsington, Minnesota.

 

[BeepersPuppy]

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[ECS]

I would like to get a thought in here if I may? What was the first Grandmaster of the Knight's Templar? By that I mean when it was first formed.
I know it went by a different name but who was the first leader of the Nine original Knight's? Hughes de Payne, am I not right? Where was his first son born? Where did he get married and to whom? Now tell me there were no Knight's Templar in Scotland? There were hundreds of them. I have at least 300 of their names.
I even have names of Knight's that came over to Nova Scotia in 1357 and stayed over here. I even have the names of some that died. Some that stayed at Westport, Mass. and New Port, R. I. also New Ross, Nova Scotia. Also the name of one of the Knight's Templar that was killed near Kinsington, Minnesota.

Is Diana Jean Muir the source of this list of names?

 

[Al D]

And another one is added to the ignore list

 

[sasquash]

How to revive a thread ...

 

[lokiblossom]

I would like to get a thought in here if I may? What was the first Grandmaster of the Knight's Templar? By that I mean when it was first formed. I know it went by a different name but who was the first leader of the Nine original Knight's? Hughes de Payne, am I not right? Where was his first son born? Where did he get married and to whom? Now tell me there were no Knight's Templar in Scotland? There were hundreds of them. I have at least 300 of their names. I even have names of Knight's that came over to Nova Scotia in 1357 and stayed over here. I even have the names of some that died. Some that stayed at Westport, Mass. and New Port, R. I. also New Ross, Nova Scotia. Also the name of one of the Knight's Templar that was killed near Kinsington, Minnesota.

I don't know where your list is from Franklin, but I would certainly agree there were at least 300 Templar's in Scotland shortly after the Pope's letter in November to arrest all of them in Europe. One fact is that Scotland didn't arrest any of them creating a somewhat safe asylum.

Cheers, Loki

 

[franklin]

I don't know where your list is from Franklin, but I would certainly agree there were at least 300 Templar's in Scotland shortly after the Pope's letter in November to arrest all of them in Europe. One fact is that Scotland didn't arrest any of them creating a somewhat safe asylum.

Cheers, Loki

They had hundreds that fought in the Battle of Bannockburn.

 

[ECS]

They had hundreds that fought in the Battle of Bannockburn.

The only cavalry at the Battle of Bannockburn was the SCOTTS CAVALRY of 500, led by Sir Robert de Keth (Keith), that advanced around Milton Bog, attacking the left flank of the English archers.
There exists No records outside of the pulp pseudo histories of Templars at this battle, or of a 300 Templar cavalry being led by Henry Sinclair, the Lord Sinclair of Rosslyn.

 

[lokiblossom]

The only cavalry at the Battle of Bannockburn was the SCOTTS CAVALRY of 500, led by Sir Robert de Keth (Keith), that advanced around Milton Bog, attacking the left flank of the English archers.
There exists No records outside of the pulp pseudo histories of Templars at this battle, or of a 300 Templar cavalry being led by Henry Sinclair, the Lord Sinclair of Rosslyn.

Do we know for sure that Keith's "small body of horse" as Cassell describes it in volume 1 of his "History of England" consists of only Scottish riders? They are quite experienced and very well equipped while turning the tide of the battle according to some descriptions of Bannockburn Creek (Little Rivulet of Bannockburn as Cassell describes it). Must have been an awesome group of 500 men considering the English had a considerable advantage in manpower. They were first positioned as part of Bruce's reserve before being sent into battle against the English bowmen. There is no doubt in my mind that many Templars escaped to Scotland in 1307, whether they came battle ready or not would be questionable.

Robert the Bruce held a very important secret meeting at Ardchattan Priory in Argyll in 1308. The Priory was an offshoot (sister) of the Templars own Cistercian Order where if they did escape to Scotland may have been near where they would have landed. In early 1308 it would be doubtful if either Bruce or the Priory would have known about the Pope's November order of 1307.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but have always thought it possible and a very interesting discussion.

Cheers, Loki