The Land of Ophir and the Ancients Ones....

[CanadianTrout]

Um, using that fable as a "history book" and believing it makes a "strong point" is very weak IMHO. man has always tried to describe and atone to some sort of 'higher power". Every culture and every race of man through all of time has a pantheon of gods, or worshipped the sun, or some sort of "upper divinity". There are many reasons every culture across the globe spanning thousands of years came up with these stories and belief systems. Some to describe social or environmental events, some to give meaning to their existence, and some were so perverted as to be used as a tool to elevate a select few above all others and control an ever expanding population (cough cough).

Why would all of these people from different lands and different periods of history all have similar stories or belief systems? Because it is part of the human condition. It is what makes us, "us". Kind of like the René Descartes saying "I think, therefore I am"; or "I am thinking, therefore I exist". (I personally like the second one better). In essence, this whole general belief system gives us meaning. Something to strive for. Staves off the inevitability of no further existence after death. Kind of a scary thought to primitive man (or even modern man for that matter!) and certainly comforting to those who are knocking on deaths door.

You honestly believe a guy built an arc 300 cubits long and managed to store and house and feed 2 of every animal plus himself and his family? Then the whole world flooded? Come on.....

Do you honestly believe that fire and brimstone rained down all of a sudden on a couple cities because they were known for lust and greed? Sounds like a volcano to me. Why is Washington DC and Moscow still standing? For that matter why is every major capitol in the world not burning to the ground as we speak?

Why have all these "magical" events just stopped happening as we advanced as a civilization? Nothing like what is described in the fictional Bible has happened for 2000 years.


Just to prove my point, the Babylonian's also have a great flood version of the story. Doesn't mean it happened, but does prove every culture needs a "reason to exist" or a way to explain what is not understood.

EDIT: Oops! I by no means intend to insult anyones belief system; you're entitled to what u want. You have yours and I have mine. Simple as that.

 

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[Kentucky Kache]

Just to prove my point, the Babylonian's also have a great flood version of the story. Doesn't mean it happened, but does prove every culture needs a "reason to exist" or a way to explain what is not understood.

If you'll give that some thought, you might just realize that is proof that it DID happen. In anything else, you'd call that confirmation. How could every civilization on earth have this same story?

And you're wrong about these things not happening for 2000 years. But I know better than to get into that here and now.

 

[Voice of Reason]

No worries CTrout, you are by no means insulting.

Something for the philosophers out there, and a response to CTrout;
Does an Acorn have a Reason to exist, if not to Become an Oak Tree? That simple acorn Proves the existence of the Oak tree. The acorn is not the oak, and it may never become the oak, but it is in potential - something far greater than it presently embodies. Such is the human condition. Such is the mystery of life.

Our search for meaning is not inspired by our need for a reason, on the contrary, it is inspired by the inherent potentiality within us all. We don't need a reason, we have a reason to exist...and that is to develop and grow...the Know ThySelf!

We are all in potential, something far greater than we presently embody - and thus we are all proof of that something greater, though we don't necessarily "understand it." Just as the acorn proves the existence of the Oak, though in no way resembles it. And just as the great Majority of acorns never become oak trees, so too do the great majority of humans fail to unlock their inherent potentialities.

Out of consideration and respect for this thread and its authors, because we are getting a bit off subject, I recommend someone start a new thread in "Religion" if interested in continuing this particular discussion.

Much respect to all of you here. Thanks, this is great stuff!

Sincerely,
Voice of Reason

 

[rangler]

The quest for THE Truth is an ill fated one , however the search for A truth might be more productive...
The book of Fables as someone just labeled the Bible, is of course true in your own subjective experience...perhaps..but to slander the title because it didnt suit your needs is foolhardy on its face...remember code is at the foundation of any truth..and the Bible is no exception..coded in 3 layers..
1. the literal sense, ie it means just as the accepted words mean, nothing more
2.the metaphorical layer, ie parables..a simple story telling a complex truism
3. a higher estoric sense and meaning..over and above the others-only meant for those that have
a degree of insights and knowledge
so you see it appeals to all levels of ones intellect.

Where Adam and Eve actually two people? No! but there were the symbols of the two genders~! Yes~!
Did a man named Noah build the Ark? not likely, maybe hundreds of thousands build an ark... possibility...truth told as a parable, legends from a splinter of the truth..
THE truth is like a ball of mercury, when you 'push'on it ...it rolls away in to hundreds of tiny balls of mercury.. better to confine it to 'A' truth..then once you have a few of those 'pearls of of wisdom'
you can string them together.....

here in this thread, I am attempting to find the pearl of Ophir, if it exists, where it started and like all gold mines they play out , where did the second Ophir end up at, and where in the New World did the treasury
of Solomon and his descendants end up, perhaps India..via the Philippines ... did the glow of gold to Solomon et al, flow on top of the Spice Routes, most certainly it did..now to find that passage or tome that says those works, to bring it out of conjecture,...so the search goes on...dispite time, circumstance, critics or the fog of ancient time.

Not to try to find these so far mythical mines and uncover them no , not at all, the real gold is the new knowledge of proving they existed and that Biblical Archeology is a reality not a Fable.

This article exists therefore I must carry it forward to conclusion.
rangler

ps: thanks to 'voice of reason' for being just that..and I defer to his suggestion that some one, if they want to continue in this vein to start that new thread, which I will happily participate but due to the weight of 'this' thread cannot commit to 'carry' both of these heavy threads. gracis amigo!

 

[Kentucky Kache]

It was my intention, since this thread is about history, to point out that we have a comprehensive history book. It's not a book that we can just read and understand on our own. It requires an understanding. And that understanding has been given. The Bible is certainly more than a history book only, but it is that also. Anytime science digs up something that agrees with what is considered a theory, they then consider that theory proved. Why can't we do the same with the history in the Bible? How would it be possible for every culture on earth to share a Flood story, if such a Flood never happened? If your answer is that it was simply a made up tale, then, who made it up? Did every culture on earth make up THE SAME tale? So then, you'd have to admit that, either the Flood happened, or that all people came from a common place, where they shared a common language. Either way, you prove the Bible to be true.

 

[Voice of Reason]

Good stuff!

 

[Rawhide]

The great flood is a shared story as is many miracles of the times back then. You will find it in many bibles as our belief systems are close to several others in at least some ways. I do believe the Chinese are the owners of the oldest written word so maybe they hold some answers here also.

Something dating back that far as the Ancients would probably not be around. Maybe something in stone could survive. But several cultures used story telling and songs to remember the past.

Even if a Ancients dropped in our front yard for a visit, someone would call it a fraud.

I see things that appear beyond some of our older civilizations, but they exist. Coming from a rural area originally I do understand superstitious beliefs. Now DNA test and humane Gnome is being figured out on a global level. One theory neanderthals and home sapiens actually lived together and interbred.

Then they find a fossilized shark tooth in a mine 3 miles under the earth. I think a new discovery is made almost every day.

I can show you stuff that make no sense. There is a place called the Bermuda triangle. Where did the story of Atlantis come from? Egyptian history is scary to me.

I leave you with yet another picture. You should see a large head, but not quite a human head. Enjoy.

 

[rangler]

back to the thread......

still more signs point to the phillipines as one of the Ophirs
A LAND OF OPHIR:
A Theory
Part 2. What the Spaniards believed


Proem

After the death of King Solomon, Ophir was abandoned and soon forgotten. After the passage of hundreds of years nobody would know where or what is Ophir. The other word associated with Ophir is the word "Tarshish." Nobody also knew what it meant. In old translations of the Bible it was supposed also to be a place. However, in new translations of the Bible, it is used to refer to the fleet that went to Ophir.

What happened to the Hebrew or Jewish settlements that were established to process the gold before they were shipped back to King Solomon? Nobody also knew. However, we knew that because of their religious beliefs the Hebrews tend to survive as a separate enclave wherever they settled.

What the Spaniards Believed

In Spain there is a book called Coleccion General de Documentos Relativos a las Islas Filipinas. It is found in the Archivos de Indias de Sevilla. It was reprinted in 1920 in Barcelona, Spain by the Compania General de Tabaccos de Filipinas. Its Tomo III (1519-1522), pages 112-138, contains Document No. 98 describing how to locate the land of Ophir.

This same volume also contains the official documents regarding the voyage of Ferdinand Magellan. It also contains the logbook of Francisco Albo, the chief pilot of the ship Victoria. This logbook is also one of the main references regarding the voyage of Ferdinand Magellan.

Since this book contains important documents, we can discern that the Spaniards did not really believe that Ophir was in India. In fact the Cabot expedition that left Spain on April 3, 1526 had a secret mission, "to search for a route to Tarsis, OPHIR, Oriental Cathay (China), and Japan."

The Travel Guide

Document No. 98 describes how to locate the land of Ophir. The travel guide started from the Cape of Good Hope in Africa to India, to Burma, to Sumatra, to Moluccas, to Borneo, to Sulu, to China, then finally Ophir.

Ophir was "…in front of China towards the sea, of many islands where the Moluccans, Chinese, and Lequios met to trade…"

This group of islands could not be Japan because the Moluccans did not get there. It could not be Taiwan because it is not "of many islands." Only the present day Philippines could satisfy the description.

Jewish Settlements

Along the route described by Document No. 98 are locations of old Jewish settlements.

It would not be surprising for that was the procedure used by King Solomon's fleet.

Settlements were established at selected places to trade and process the gold and silver. The ships will collect the gold and silver and bring it to King Solomon. To the credit of the Hebrew people, their settlement remained true to the Jewish faith even for thousands of years. Settlements were found in India, Burma, Sumatra, and Vietnam (Annam and Cochin China).

Who Were the Lequios?

Spanish records mention of a mysterious people known as Lequios. Modern historians variously identified them as Okinawans, Koreans, or Vietnamese. They were favorite targets of Spanish ships during the time of General Miguel Lopez de Legazpi because the ships of the Lequios were always laden with gold and silver.

According to Documents 98, the Lequios were big, bearded, and white men. They were only interested in gold and silver when trading at Ophir. Okinawans, Koreans, and Vietnamese people are not big nor are they white. Their beards are just small goatees and could not satisfy the word "bearded". Therefore they were not the Lequios. So who could the Lequios be but the remnants of Hebrews and Phoenicians who have made some enclaves along the Southeast Asian shores?

The Hebrew word "LEQOT" or "LIQQET" means to gather, to glean. It resembles closely the word Lequios. It will fit the men of King Solomon's fleet who gathered gold and silver. (Note: The Hebrew alphabet has no small letters.)

Where Was Ophir?

There is no doubt that the group of islands in front of China towards the sea is the present day Philippines. The question is where was Ophir located in the Philippines?

Ancient Chinese records say that the ancient trading places in the Philippines were Ma-yi and Pulilu. Dr. Otley Beyer identified Ma-yi as Mindoro. Dr. Jose Rizal, Blumentrit, Robertson, and Stangl say that it was Luzon in part or in whole.

Dr. Jose Rizal identified "Pulilu" as Bo-ol or Bohol. Nobody disputed Dr. Jose Rizal. So there are only three possible places in the Philippines that could be identified as Ophir, they are Luzon, Mindoro, and Bohol.

We will try to examine the three possibilities in future posts.....
rangler

 

[rangler]

from bendi website:

Lode and placer gold deposits occurin most of the 73 provinces in the Philippines. The principal producing districts are Baguio and Paracale in Luzon; and Masbate, Surigao and Masara in Mindanao. Gold production in 2003 totalled 37,800 kg compared to 35,800 kg in 2002.

 

[hmmm]

Hi all
i have read some of this and would like to put in my 2 cents, i believe ophir is in fact the mines of atlantis, lumeria and the mines of all lost kingdoms that lies hidden in the old stories from around the world. with that said the only place you will find it is exactly where it is, you can look every where else but you will not find it unless you look where it is.
there is a lot of evidence and because man lives in all parts of the world and communicates with each other, we should be able to figure out where it is.
lets start with the most recent posting or evidence on this site.

Ophir was "…in front of China towards the sea, of many islands where the Moluccans, Chinese, and Lequios met to trade…"
this could be the philipens but that is south of china, it could also be america.
this is interisting
"the Lequios were big, bearded, and white men."
on vancover island there are cave paintings of a people who where displaced some 1300 years ago, the paintings show they match the description. a bearded white people. hmmm
Vancouver island is in the sea, east of china. hmmm
It has gold and would be a 3 year trip for solomon. hmmm
It also has a story of a cave laden with gold bricks hidden deep in the forest. hmmm
Has any one read the book sailing to paradise

 

[CanadianTrout]

What's that a pic of hmmm?

I'm sure its not but it looks like I'm looking through a microscope at x10000 mag.

 

[hmmm]

Its about a 6 foot wide wall of sandstone set back in a cave that looks out over the pacific.
i believe it is pigments embedded in the sandstone to create a painting.
it acts as a ancient light house for ancient seafaring people.
believe it or not, but an old shaman told me it was created thousands of years ago by a bearded culture.

 

[rangler]

here is an observation by a Filipino citizen who has done his own reseaerch...
according to some of my personal research from the web (link here), how the country was identified as Ophir was traced back during the time of the Crusades in Palestine that began in the year 1095 . During those times pilgrims were continually attacked by moslem bandits until European knights and soldiers banded together and marched towards Palestine, where they overran and took back Jerusalem from the Moslems. the knights were intent at gathering relics from captured Jerusalem and among those that they discovered were the ancient treasure map of Solomon that traced the land of Ophir where gold mines for Solomon's treasures were said to be located.

Many decades later the knights were beaten back by the moslems and Jerusalem was retaken, and support for their Order gradually faded until the Knights Templars, after having managed huge wealth, were attacked by the envious king Philip IV of France and the pope that he helped put into the Vatican throne, when in 1307 many of the once powerful Knights, including their leader De Molay, were arrested, accused of heresy, and were executed and burned at the stake, their wealth ultimately confiscated.

However, some surviving knights escaped and secretly carried with them vast treasures, as well as the map of Solomon's gold mines where they eventually traced its location. Ultimately it led them to our archipelago islands, which was then known as "Isle of Gold" and part of the ancient continent of Lemuria where they befriended the Lemurian priests otherwise known as the leaders of the indigenous peoples, who also facilitated the hiding of their vast treasures with the aid of their deities locally known as Diwatas, entities of higher dimensional level said to be our ancient Lemurian ancestors, to closely guard these treasures, which were a fraction of many more hidden by our ancestors dating back from great ancient kingdoms of Asia.

Some of the Knights remained and intermarried with the daughters of the priests, and this actually answered my personal question as to why there are indigenous peoples here in Mindanao who actually looked mestizos, which could provide clues that the European knights arrived in our shores more than 2 centuries before the Spaniards under Magellan first saw our islands in 1521, while the Spaniards had established their presence in Mindanao mostly in the later 19th century! Another proof that our ancient islands were famous for its gold were the outstanding, awesome 10th-13th century gold artifacts discovered in Butuan-Surigao area and presently exhibited in the Ayala museum. This area, as with other places in Mindanao, also had mestizo-looking indigenous peoples.

It is also intriguing why those that controlled this country manipulated the sense of history of its inhabitants such that their sense of pre-colonial history were hidden or suppressed from the majority, most of us didn't even know our land was once famed in the ancient world as "Isle of Gold," and the otherwise noble terms of our ancestors, such as the Free peoples and warriors known as Maharlikans were even mocked upon and its real meaning suppressed, our ancestor's ancient beliefs such as our myths and legends, including about the Diwatas, were ignored or even rejected by mainstream history lessons and western biased educational systems.

Otherwise, being aware of our great ancient past we could have been more noble as a people rather than our country being known as sick man of asia, being named after its colonial ruler, having inferior colonial mentality, or a society devolving into bakya crowd, jejemon culture, envious utak talangkas, mediocre minded or voting like noynoymon.

~~~
editor: I feel wholeheartly that this pinoy has captured the feeling and understanding of the
Philippine culture in terms of its relationship and its history as a Colonial people subugated
by the Imperial forces, who take their resources and exploit their talents and indeed enslave them for their own needs...leaving a wake of poverty, spoils of squandered resources, demoralized, people whos proud heritage was tarnished and their equity robbed, their outlook limited...their expectations dashed...
I pray this wrong will be righted in a complete and substantial way to bring prosperity, hope and a a decent standard of living for all Filipinos~!
rangler

 

[Shortstack]

hmmm:
That skinny faced guy on the right side has his mouth opened and eyes closed. The woman just to the left of him must be an important person because she is presented larger and she is wearing a seriously LARGE headdress shaped as a high comb / mohawk style.
There have been other photos posted in this section of the forum that look so life like that they appear to be photographic quality. Someone took the time to carefully use those earthtoned pigments to form YOUR wall mural just like those other "paintings" were done. One of those other "paintings" is also done on a sandstone like material, out in the open. I've seen others (not on the forum) that are an estimated 20 feet tall; or more, and are just faces. The Spanish did NOT make these paintings. The technology was not theirs.
Here is one photo posted by rigmover. I do not have his permission to post it, so if he asks me to remove it, I will. It is a little weathered out, but still can be seen.

 

[rangler]

please ignore the previous post, it is a hijack attempt, we need NO pareidolia or graffiti interpetation on this thread, DO NOT POST HERE AGAIN or I will report you to the moderators...YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE with your erroneous suppositions ~!
-------------------------------------------------
back to the thread...
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Is Philippines ancient name is ophir?
"Where is Tarshish and Ophir"

During the early period of European colonization, the Biblical lands of Tarshish and Ophir, or Tarsis and Ofir, as they were called, held the imagination of European explorers. Not only was it believed that the "lost tribes" of Israel were to be found in these lands, but also untold wealth. To these kingdoms King Solomon and King Hiram of Tyre sent ships for trade that "brought from Ophir great plenty of almug trees, and precious stones," (I Kings 10:11). Concerning Tarshish it is written: "For the king's ships went to Tarshish with the servants of Hiram: every three years once came the shop sof Tarshish bringing gold and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacock." (II Chronicles 9:21)
In Samuel Purchas's well-known travel compendium Purchas His Pilgrim, he devotes the entire first chapter to a discussion of Tarshish and Ophir. In particular, he argues strenously that it is beloved Britain and not Spain that deserved the title as the modern Tarshish and Ophir. Curiously, in Careri's journal of his visit to the Philippines, he mentions that he would not go into the argument raging in Europe at that time over whether the Philippines was originally populated by the descendants of Biblical Tarshish.
In modern times, scholars have attempted to relate Tarshish and Ophir with a number of areas, none of which include the Philippines. However, things were different in Europe prior to the discovery of the Philippines. There, they believed that Tarsis and Ofir were some lands far to the east of biblical Israel. Their reasoning was actually quite logical. King Solomon built the port from which ships departed for Tarsis and Ofir at Ezion-Geber on the coast of the Red Sea. The return journey took about three years, so obviously the location must be somewhere far to the East. In modern times, some scholars have tried to suggest that Solomon's navy circumnavigated Africa to reach the Mediterranean, but the seafaring Europeans of those times would not consider such nonsense. Tarsis and Ofir were unknown lands beyond the Golden Chersonese of Ptolemy. Their discovery would undoubtedly bring untold wealth and great fame in the minds of the people of those times.
But what, one may ask, has this to do with the Philippines? The truth is that the search for Tarsis and Ofir was directly related to the "discovery" of these islands by Magellan!
______________________________________
Magellan and the Search for Ophir
Magellan's contemporary, Duarte Barbosa, wrote that the people of Malacca (in modern Malaysia) had described to him an island group known as the Lequios whose people were as "rich and more eminent than the Chins (Chinese)," and that traded "much gold, and sliver in bars, silk, rich cloth, and much very good wheat, beautiful porcelains and many other merchandises."
However, Barbosa was not the only one to mention the Lequios during Magellan's time. About a decade after Magellan's voyage, Ferdinand Pinto had wrote in his journal of the experience of his crew and himself after being shipwrecked on the Lequios! Pinto was traveling through the Malay Archipelago at the time and he describes the Lequios islands as belonging to large group of islands many of which were rich in gold and silver. He mentions that at that time the Portugese were familiar with Japan and China, and also with the island of "Mindanaus" or Mindanao, so the Lequois islands must have been somewhere between these two areas. Furthermore, Pinto even goes as far as to give the exact latitude of the main Lequios island. He states that is was situated at 9N20 latitude and that the island was on a merdian similar to that of Japan.
Now, in Magellan's time all exploration was done by latitude sailing and dead reckoning, as no navigational clocks were in use. Latitude sailing required fixing one's latitude precisely by means of an astrolabe. Longitude could only be approximated roughly by using a patent log to track the distance the ship has travelled in any particular direction. When Magellan began to suspect he was nearing the region of the Moluccas he deliberately steered on a north course and then turned westward at a latitude of 13 degrees North according to both Pigafetta and Albo. Pigafetta states that the reason was to get near the port of "Gaticara" which was the Cattigara mentioned by Ptolemy. In the book, Magellan's Voyage around the World, the author, Charles E. Nowell, offers another possible reason for Magellan steering so far to the north of the Moluccas. He notes that Magellan himself had rewrote part of Barbosa's book referring to the Lequios, and in his version Magellan substituted "Tarsis" and "Ofir" for the world "Lequios."
Although these lands are not mentioned in Magellan's contract, less than six years after his voyage, Sebastian Cabot signed a contract with Spain which did have as one of its objectives the "lands of Tarshish and Ophir." Magellan had been to Malacca himself, and probably many have heard of the community of Filipino workers and merchants that lived there under the protection of the king of Malacca. Probably many of you already know of the theory that Black Henry, the slave Magellan purchased at Malacca, may have belonged to the Filipino community of Malacca as he was able to speak with the natives at Limasawa. Whatever the case, we know from his own pen that Magellan thought the Lequios islands might be the same as the Biblical Tarsis and Ofir, and it may be that his idea of the position of the Lequios was partly shaped by Barbosa's book, and partly by information he may have received from Filipinos in Malacca. Was the fact that Black Henry was able to converse with the people living at the latitude given by Pinto (but not with the people of Samar or Leyte) a coincidence, or something planned in advance from information gleaned in Malacca?
Even after their discovery, many still regarded the Philippines, rich in gold and silver, to be the same as ancient Tarsis and Ofir. Father Colin, referred to them as such in the early 1600's and even at the turn of the century, the Philippine historian Pedro Paterno, still claimed that the Philippines were really Tarshish and Ophir! Whatever one thinks of these claims though, the search for the Biblical El Dorado appears to have played an important role in the European discovery of the Philippines.

Chryse, the "Golden One," is the name given by ancient Greek writers to an island rich in gold to the east of India. Pomponius Mela, Marinos of Tyre and the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea mention Chryse in the first century CE. It is basically the equivalent of the Indian Suvarnadvipa the "Island of Gold." Josephus calls it in Latin Aurea, and equates the island with biblical Ophir, from where the ships of Tyre and Solomon brought back gold and other trade items.

Chryse is often coupled with another island Argyre the "Island of Silver" and placed beyond the Ganges. Ptolemy locates both islands east of the Khruses Kersonenson the "Golden Peninsula" i.e. the Malaya --deleted--ula. North of Chryse in the Periplus was Thin, which some consider the first European reference to China.

In addition to gold, Chryse was also famed for having the finest tortoise shell in the world according to the Periplus. Large ships brought trade goods back and forth between Chryse and the markets at the mouth of the Ganges.

Chin-lin

In ancient Chinese literature, a mysterious region beyond their southern border in Annam was known as Chin-lin "Golden Neighbor" and the Southeast Asian border was also called the "Golden Frontier."

When China invaded Annam (northern Vietnam) in the first century BCE, the kingdom of Champa fortified villages along the old caravan trail. This path became Route Colonial 9 during the French colonial period, and it was used by the Americans to build the McNamara Line of fortified bases during the Vietnam War.

With this fortified line, the rugged Central Highlands and a policy of constant piracy, the Champa kingdom held the Chinese at bay for a thousand years. After the fall of the Chin dynasty in the 5th century, Cham raids on Tongking became so frequent that the governor appealed to the emperor for assistance. A war of attrition between China and Champa began that lasted until the rise of the T'ang dynasty.During this time though, China was well aware of the golden lands far to the south. The Buddhist pilgrim I-Tsing mentions Chin-Chou "Isle of Gold" in the archipelago south of China on his way back from India.

Zabag and Wakwak

The kingdoms of Zabag and Wakwak, famed among the medieval Muslims as rich in gold, referred to the eastern islands of the Malay archipelago i.e. the Philippines and Eastern Indonesia.

Zabag was based in what would later become the kingdom of Lusung. In this sense, the Philippines fits the bill as a gold-rich realm. The country has consistently ranked second in the world behind only South Africa in gold deposits per land area. The Philippines has historically been the largest producer of gold in Asia despite its relatively small size and the fact that until 1980 most gold was obtained only through small alluvial deposits.

Although some ancient gold artifacts have been found in this region, they don't match the age suggested by linguistic reconstruction. Gold may have been mostly handed down from generation to generation rather than being used as a burial good item.

In about the second century CE, there arose a practice of using gold eye covers, and then, gold facial orifice covers to adorn the dead resulting in an increase of ancient gold finds. More than a millennium later, the popularity of dental gold to decorate the teeth significantly increased the amount of gold found at archaeological sites.

When the Spanish came they discovered an abundance of gold used among the people of the Philippine islands. Here are some relevant quotes:

Pieces of gold, the size of walnuts and eggs are found by sifting the earth in the island of that king who came to our ships. All the dishes of that king are of gold and also some portion of his house as we were told by that king himself...He had a covering of silk on his head, and wore two large golden earrings fastened in his ears...At his side hung a dagger, the haft of which was somewhat long and all of gold, and its scabbard of carved wood. He had three spots of gold on every tooth, and his teeth appeared as if bound with gold.

--- Pigafetta on Raja Siaui of Butuan during Magellan's voyage

For brass, iron and other weighty articles, they gave us gold in exchange...For 14 pounds of iron we received 10 pieces of gold, of the value of a ducat and a half. The Captain General forbade too great an anxiety for receiving gold, without which order every sailor would have parted with all he had to obtain this metal, which would have ruined our commerce forever.
--- Pigafetta on gold trade in Cebu

Sailing in this manner, for some time, in 16° of north latitude, they were obliged by continual contrary winds, to bear up again for the Philippine islands, and in their way back, had sight of six or seven additional islands, but did not anchor at any of them. They found also an archipelago, or numerous cluster of islands, in 15 or 16 degrees of north latitude, well inhabited by a white people, with beautiful well-proportioned women, and much better clothed than in any other of the islands of these parts; and they had many golden ornaments, which was a sure sign that there was some of that metal in their country.

--- Antonio Galvão in 1555 describing the journey of Bartholomew de la Torre in 1548
"...the ore is so rich that I will not write any more about it, as I might possibly come under a suspicion of exaggerating; but I swear by Christ that there is more gold on this island than there is iron in all Biscay."

--- Hernando Riquel et al., 1574
In this island, there are many gold mines, some of which have been inspected by the Spaniards, who say that the natives work them as is done in Nueva Espana with the mines of silver; and, as in these mines, the vein of ore here is continuous. Assays have been made, yielding so great wealth that I shall not endeavor to describe them, lest I be suspected of lying. Time will prove the truth.

--- Hernando Riquel et al. on island of Luzon, 1574

There are some chiefs in this island who have on their persons ten or twelve thousand ducats' worth of gold in jewels--to say nothing of the lands, slaves, and mines that they own. There are so many of these chiefs that they are innumerable. Likewise the individual subjects of these chiefs have a great quantity of the said jewels of gold, which they wear on their persons--bracelets, chains, and earrings of solid gold, daggers of gold, and other very rich trinkets. These are generally seen among them, and not only the chiefs and freemen have plenty of these jewels, but even slaves possess and wear golden trinkets upon their persons, openly and freely.

--- Guido de Lavezaris at al., 1574

About their necks they wear gold necklaces, wrought like spun wax, and with links in our fashion, some larger than others. On their arms they wear armlets of wrought gold, which they call calombigas, and which are very large and made in different patterns. Some wear strings of precious stones--cornelians and agates; and other blue and white stones, which they esteem highly. They wear around the legs some strings of these stones, and certain cords, covered with black pitch in many foldings, as garters.

-- Antonio de Morga, 1609

"... the natives proceed more slowly in this ,and content themselves with what they already possess in jewels and gold ingots handed down from antiquity and inherited from their ancestors. This is considerable, for he must be poor and wrethced who has no gold chains, calombigas, and earrings."

-- Antonio de Morga, 1609

The Portugese explorer Pedro Fidalgo in 1545 found gold so abundant on Luzon the inhabitants were willing to trade two pezoes of gold for one pezo of silver.

When the Portuguese first arrived, most of the gold traded into Brunei came from Luzon. That island was known as Lusung Dao or "Golden Luzon" to the Chinese who also traded for gold in this region.

References:
Legeza, Laszlo. "Tantric Elements in pre-Hispanic Philippines Gold Art," Arts of Asia, July-Aug. 1988, pp.129-136. (Mentions gold jewelry of Philippine origin in first century CE Egypt)
Peralta, J.T. "Prehistoric gold ornaments from the Central Bank of the Philippines," Arts of Asia 1981, no.4, p.54.Villegas, Ramon N. Ginto: History Wrought in Gold, Manila: Bangko Central ng Pilipinas, 2004.


Mines Dating Back to at Least 1,000 B.C. Have Been Found in the Philippines
According to De Morga: (1,000 B.C. is when King Solomon's navy of ships going to Ophir for gold)
Mines dating back to at least 1,000 B.C. have been found in the Philippines. When the Spanish arrived the Filipinos worked various mines of gold, silver, copper and iron. They also seemed to have worked in brass using tin that was likely imported from the Malay Peninsula. The iron work in particular was said to be of very high quality in some cases, and occasionally in some areas, even better than that found in Europe.
When the Spanish arrived, the Philippines was so gilded with gold that most of the gold mines had been neglected. "... the natives proceed more slowly in this, and content themselves with what they already possess in jewels and gold ingots handed down from antiquity and inherited from their ancestors. This is considerable, for he must be poor and wrethced who has no gold chains, calombigas, and earrings."
As the missionary Francisco Colín wrote in 1663:
In the punishment of crimes of violence the social rank of the slayer and slain made a great deal of difference. If the slain was a chief, all his kinsfolk took the warpath against the slayer and his kinfolk, and this state of war continued until arbiters were able to determine the amount of gold which had to be paid for the killing… The death penalty was not imposed by public authority save in cases where both the slayer and slain were commoners, and the slayer could not pay the blood price.
Blair and Robertson, Vol. II, p. 116.
Legazpi describes one of the "Moro" pilots captured from Butuan:
"...a most experienced man who had much knowledge, not only of matters concerning these Filipinas Islands, but those of Maluco, Borney, Malaca, Jaba, India, and China, where he had had much experience in navigation and trade."
According to Pigafetta:
However, things seem to already diminished from Pigafetta's time:
"On the island [Butuan] where the king came to the ship, pieces of gold as large as walnuts or eggs are to be found, by sifting the earth. All the dishes of the king are of gold, and his whole house is very well set up."
Pigafetta goes on to describe the huge gold ornaments, gold dagger handles, tooth plating and even gold that was used to decorate the outside of houses! On the gold work of the Filipinos is this description of the people of Mindoro: ( copied by Israel recorded in 1Chronicles 29:4 Even three thousand talents of gold, of the gold of Ophir, and seven thousand talents of refined silver, to overlay the walls of the houses withal)
"...they possess great skill in mixing it [gold] with other metals. They give it an outside appearance so natural and perfect, and so fine a ring, that unless it is melted they can deceive all men, even the best of silversmiths."
Arts of Asia, Jul-Aug 1988, p. 131
Arts of Asia 1981, no.4, p.54
Apparently, even foreigners desired Filipino gold products. Recent discoveries show that gold jewelry of Philippine origin was found in Egypt near the beginning of the era. These finds are mentioned in Laszlo Legeza's "Tantric elements in pre-Hispanic Philippines Gold Art," (Arts of Asia, Jul-Aug 1988, p. 131) along a discussion of Philippine Tantric art. Some outstanding examples of Philippine jewelry, which included necklaces, belts, armlets and rings placed around the waist, are showcased in J. T. Peralta's "Prehistoric gold ornaments from the Central Bank of the Philippines," Arts of Asia 1981, no.4, p.54.
Luzon Empire
LUCOES or LEQUIOS ISLANDS
Luzon Empire according to Chinese historians
Luzon Empire (1279-1571 AD) was an ancient empire once located around Manila bay region of the Philippines. Its capital was Tondo, its territories covered most of what is now Central Luzon, extending from delta region that surrounds Manila Bay, all the way into the interior along head waters of the surrounding rivers in the province of Pampanga, Bulakan (covered part now Rizal).
The history of Song Dynasty was compiled under Mongol Prime Minister Toktoghan in 1345 AD. In it the Mongols recount tha final and complete destruction of Nan song (southern song Empire) (1127-1279 AD), where in 1279 AD the Mongol Fleet crushed the Nan Song Navy at the Naval battle of Yamen. The loyal Minister of the Left Liu Xiufu committed suicide with last Na Song Emperor, the children Songdi Bing rather than be captured by the Mongols.
The Grand Admiral Zhang Shijie escaped with his grand armada but were later annihilated by a typhoon while crossing the seas.
Alternative source refute the accounts of the destruction of Zhang Shijie's grand armada as nothing more than Mongol propaganda since there were no eyewitness accounts of its destruction nor were there traces left of its remains. For most historians, the fate of Zhang shijie and his grand armada remains a mystery.
Contemporary Chinese historians in Guangdong are now even questioning the Mongolian accounts regarding Emperor Bing's death. Even though Mongol sources claimed that the corpse of the last emperor has been found washed ashore along the coast of Shenzen, his actual grave is yet to be found. Cantonese folklore expressed in the ttraditional Cantonese opera narrates an alternative account where the loyal Minister Liu Xiufu tricked the Mongols by committing suicide with his own son disguised as the young emperor. The real emperor was said to have been smuggled out of the scene of battle by Grand Admiral Zhang Shijie, who will eventually return to redeem the empire from the invaders. The Travel of Marco Polo also recounts the escape of the last song emperor across the ocean. Zhang Shijie's fleet and the last song emperor may have escaped to pre-colonial Philippines and established the Luzon Empire or the 'Lesser Song Empire".
Despite the conjectures regarding its origins, the Ming Annals are clear on the actual existence of the Luzon Empire. It records that in 1373 AD, the Luzon Empire sent its first among the many succeeding diplomat mission to the Great Ming Empire (1368-1644 AD), accompanied by the embassies of India's Chola Empire.
The Ming chroniclers added the character for "kingdom"of "empire" (pinyin: GuU) after Luzon (Lusong), indicating that it was once an independent and sovereign kingdom. Her rulers were acknowledged as king and not mere chieftains. The Ming empire treated the Luzon Empire more favorably than Japan by allowing it to trade with china once verey two years, while Japan was only allowed to trade once every 11 years.
Luzon empire flourished during the latter half of the Ming Dynasty when China closed its doors to foreign trade. Foreigners were forbidden to send trade missions to China. Chinese merchants were likewise forbidden to trade beyond the borders of the Ming Empire. Yet clandestinely, merchants from Guangzhou and Quanzhou regularly delivered trade goods to Tondo. Luzon merchants then traded them all across Southeast Asia and were considered "Chinese" by the people they encountered.
The Portuguese who came to Asia much earlier than the Spaniards recorded their encounter with the inhabitants of the Luzon empire and called them 'Lucoes'. The Portuguese records that the Luzon Empire played an active role in the politics and economy of the 16th century Southeast Asia, especially in controlling the trade traffic at the Straits of Malacca.
The Luzon Empire's powerful presence in the trade of Chinese goods in 16th century East Asia was felt strongly by Japan, whose merchants had to resort to piracy in order to obtain much sought after Chinese products such as silk and porcelain. Famous 16th century Japanese merchants and tea connoisseurs like Shimai Sou--deleted--su and Kamiya Soutan established their branches here. One famous Japanese merchant, Luzon Sukezaemon, went as far as to change his name from Naya to Luzon.
Tondo (Tungdu in Cantonese) or the 'Eastern Capital' has always been the traditional capital of the Luzon Empire. Its traditional rulers were the lakandula (Kapampangan: 'Lord of the Palace'). During the reign of Paduka Sri Baginda Rajah dan yang di Pertuan Bulkiah (1485-1521) the Kingdom of Brunai decided to break the Luzon Empire's monolpoly in the China trade by attacking Tondo and establishing the city state of Mainl'l, as a Burneian satellite. Anew dynasty under tha Salalila was established in Manila to challenge the House of Lakand'l, in Tondo.
When the Spaniards arrived in 1571 AD, the unity of the Luzon Empire was already threatened by the uneasy alliance of the Three Kings of Luzon: the Rajah matanda of Sapa, the Lakandula of Tondo and Rajah Suliman III, the 'rajah muda' or "crown prince" of Mainl'l and 'laxamana' or "grand admiral" of the Macabebe Armada. Powerful states like Lubao, Betis and Macabebe become bold enough to challenge the traditional leadership of Tondo and Mainl'l. the Spaniards took advantage of the chaos, played favourites with one ruler and pitted them against the other.
Rumor has it that the Spaniards had poisoned the Rajah Matanda of Mainl'l, so as to win the support of Lakandula of Tondo. Disregarding the legitimacy of Rajah Suliman III as 'rajah muda', the Spaniards installed the child Rajah Bago as the new king of Mainl'l.
In 1571, Rajah Suliman III, the 'rajah muda' of mainl'l and laxamana of the Macabebe armada, challenged the Spaniards to a naval battle at the estuary of bangkusay. The Spaniards were able to crush Rajah Suliman III and his Macabebe armada due to the lack of support from the other rulers of the empire. The Luzon Empire was quickly overtaken by the Spaniards. Its territories were carved out and distributed as spoils among themselves. The province of Pampanga was the first Spanish colonial province carved out of the Luzon Empire and the people who spoke one language from Tondo to the rest of Pampanga are now called Kapampangan.
After the collapse of the Luzon empire, the Spaniards were finally able to create their first colony in Asia, the Philippines, named in honor of Spanish King Philip II of Spain. The name Luzon was given to the entire northern Philippine island, in memory of the former Luzon empire.
The Luzon Empire was said to have finally ended in 1571 AD according to Spanish records.Yet the fortified cities of Lubao and Betis continued to thrive as independent principalities of the Luzon Empire till 1572 AD.
In 1575 AD,the Spaniards executed the child king Rajah Bago and his cousin Lumanlan. The Lakandula of Tondo also died in the same year.
In 1586 AD, the Spaniards crushed the revolt of former nobles of the Luzon Empire, in the province of Pampanga. The revolt was based in Candaba under the leadership of Don Nicolas Mananquete and Don Juan de Manila.
In 1588 AD, the Spaniards crushed the revolt of the nobles of the Luzon Empire in Tondo. It was led by the descendants of the Lakandula and their kinsmen with the assistance of Japanese merchants. Many of them executed or exiled and their properties confiscated.
In 1590 AD, the King Sattha of Cambodia sent two elephants to the "King of Luzon" through his Portuguese ambassador and requested the Luzon Empire's assistance in their battle against Siam. In the same year the "lords" of the Luzon Empire were said to have been corresponding with theTaikou-sama of Japan, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, begging for assistance to help liberate the Luzon Empire from Spaniards. Hideyoshi responded by sending a letter to the Spanish Governor of Manila, demanding that the Spaniards leave Luzon quietly or else face a full scale invasion that would force them out. I'll prepared for a Japanese invasion, the Spanish Governor of Manila decided to appease Hideyoshi by sending gift from the Americas, including the two elephants sent by the King of Cambodia. The rulers of the old Luzon Empire who cooperated with the Spanish overlords became the principalia of the new Spanish colony. To this day, their descendants still play an influential role in Philippine society.
The study of Philippine history has for many years been Eurocentric, most Philippine historians have gone as far back at the earliest Spanish records but have failed to look into the archives of neighboring countries, such as Brunei, Indonesia, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam, Japan and China. Their dependence on the English language limits the majority of Philippine historians from accessing volumes of materials written in Chinese and other Asian languages. As a result, the history of the Luzon empire remains mythical in their scholastic psyche and still virtually non-existent in mainstream Philippine History.
Reference:
(History of the Song) original Chinese text: http://www.yifan.net/yihe/novels/history/songshiytt/sshi.HTML
(Ming Annals) original Chinese text: http://www.yifan.net/yihe/novels/history/msqztyz/ms.HTML
(Shinsho Taiko-ki) by (Yoshikawa Eiji)
Giles, Herbert Allen, A Chinese Biographical Dictionary (1898). Reprinted by Cheng wen Publishing, Taipe, 1975
Henson, Mariano A. 1965. The Province of Pampanga and its Towns: A.D. 1300-1965, 4th edition revised. Angeles City
Licunan, Virginia Benitez & Jose Llavador Mira, The Philippines Under Spain: Book IV (1583-1590), The National Trust for Historical and Cultural Preservation of the Philippines, Quezon City, 1993.
Loarca, Miguel de, Relacion de las Yslas Filipinas, Blair and Robertson vol.5 p.34-187.
Morga, Antonio de, Sucesos de las Islas Filipinas, obra publicada en Mejico el aOo de 1609 nuevamente sacada a Luz y anotado por Jose Rizal y precedida de un prologo del Prof. Fernando Blumentritt, Impresion al offset de la Edicion Anatada por Rizal, Paris 1890. Manila: Historico Nacional, 1991.
Miyamoto, Kazuo, Vikings of the Far East, new York: Vantage Press, 1975,p.88-89. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzon_Sukezaemon
San Agustin, Gaspar de, Conquistas de las Islas Philipinas 1565-1615, Translated by Luis Antonio MaOeru, published by Pedro Galende, OSA: Intramurus, Manila, 1998.
Santiago, Luciano P.R.,The House of Lakandula, Matanda ang Soliman (1571-1898)" Genealogy and Group Identity, Philippine Quarterly of Culture and Society 18 (1990).
Scott, William Henry, Barangay: Sixteenth-Century Philippine Culture and Society, Quezon City: Ateneo de Manila University Press, 1994.
Tolentino, Aurelio. 1914. Kasulatang Ginto, Manila: Imprenta y Litografia de Juan Fajardo.
Yule, Henry (ed), The Travel of Marco Polo, Dover Publications, New York, 1983.
Siuala ding Meangubie/Mike Pangilinan/Shugyousha-Bushido, Aikido, Iaido Kapampangan National Liberation Advocate 10 ICAL Paper on Kapampangan Orthography Essays on Kapampangan Nationalism Essays on Kapampangan Spirituality Essays on Kapampangan Philosophy and Culture Lusung Empire: Kapampangan & China.

 

[Shortstack]

Let's see now..................the subject of the thread deals with the Ancients; hmmm and I just posted some info dealing directly with some probable Ancient sites....................and you still claim we're trying to highjack the thread. That makes no sense what so ever.

 

[Rawhide]

I think were arguing definitions of what or who the Ancients were.

As i wonder around in the wilderness I am seeing the same things over and over again. Now that is proof to me. I dont believe nature could reproduce man made likeness all over the world everywhere.

I think the full circle begins and ends with King Solomon. Most of what I see appears to be in his works and likeness.

What befuddles me is why, The Virgin mary, why the same priest, why the same symbols as praying hands and soldiers? I did not mention the noahs ark of animals and did not even touch on the more important signs.

 

[kanabite]

please ignore the previous post, it is a hijack attempt, we need NO pareidolia or graffiti interpetation on this thread, DO NOT POST HERE AGAIN or I will report you to the moderators...YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE with your erroneous suppositions ~!
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back to the thread...
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bump
please excuse the interuption by myself , just keeping track of possible " terms of use violations."
http://forum.treasurenet.com/rules
by all means continue gentlemen

 

[Pala Y Pico]

I think were arguing definitions of what or who the Ancients were.

As i wonder around in the wilderness I am seeing the same things over and over again. Now that is proof to me. I dont believe nature could reproduce man made likeness all over the world everywhere.

I think the full circle begins and ends with King Solomon. Most of what I see appears to be in his works and likeness.

What befuddles me is why, The Virgin mary, why the same priest, why the same symbols as praying hands and soldiers? I did not mention the noahs ark of animals and did not even touch on the more important signs.

John,

you are definitely having more fun then I am.

 

[Rawhide]

It is a really good topic for a novice like myself so yes I am having a ball. Till the history channel gets a version of it, I have to make do. A good example of what I mean by different definitions. I see a marker for a mine, someone else calls it a shaft. His explanation is much more accurate. But some would take that as offense.

It takes a lot of work and courage to post here. I would say many hours have been spent by some including myself. We may use different words to describe things that are very old. Each person used his own experiences and what works for him. I try to apply that knowledge to each of my sites. I want to see my site through your eyes too.

Some will always argue, no matter the subject. I can not grasp half of what is said here when we get a long versions of history. But I see weird stuff and cant explain it. I posted a spoof a few weeks back and was attacked by members here. I promise no more spoofs as we are not allowed to laugh at ourselves, why have fun, this is serious rock business.

I like that word "busy". God didnt call em murderers or alternative lifestyles, he called em busy. lol. I find the religious historys a good way to verify most anything you want. But not pushing any one faith here people.

Back on topic. Since the only thing I know that will last 10,000 years is a rock. I look at rocks. How they were used. This included ceremonial purposes, such as caves and such that would be used by more modern people. Each site has to be separated by a timeline, so I can look at what I want.

Then comparing it with old hand drawn maps as there wasnt post offices around could take months. In the end I get a good idea of who some of the players were. The stuff that is left is very old. Im not going to bore us all with the breakdown of the science as I have science friends who do that for me. But it takes a very long time for rocks to rot.

What can I add here that hasn't already been said. I would suggest looking at the Chaco Meridian for starters. The genius of it, and all it could stand for could be our next big argument. Its age is important here to this discussion. What it is believed to be used for is also important. These rocks we look at have been trails for a very long time. This is just one idea I will add to the discussion. If it takes off I will add more fun stuff.

Now here is something fun to do. Take a chisel, and a hammer, and go carve a face in a hard rock. Make sure you wear safety glasses. You will find these monuments and statues were very hard to make. A time consuming process, and a feat of gravity. I do not believe the ancients were touched in the head and just put carving and giant heads up for fun. But first you need to brake the 10,000 year idea of life as we know it.

I can post stuff proving the experts wrong about how old we really may be. But I want to know about what you have found. If your not looking why are you here? Good Luck all, and Happy Holidays.