The Lost Doc Thorne Mine - was it the same mine of Jacob Waltz?

[Oroblanco]

<Gold in white quartz, perhaps what the Dr Thorn ore might look like, photo originally from Wiki?
​

One of the earlier lost mine legends of Arizona is the lost Doc Thorne mine, also spelled Thorn. There are a number of different variations of the story, but basically a Dr Thorne came to the southwest to start a practice; he was told to go to an Army fort where he would very probably be hired as the Army was always looking for doctors for the various posts. On his way there he was captured, (one version has it that he was captured by Apaches, the other says it was Navajos) and held captive a while; Thorn managed to cure some of the Indians and in repayment, he was blindfolded and led to a well hidden spot where he was allowed to pick up all the gold he could carry, then the blindfold was returned and he was brought back to the Indian camp and released.

Dr Thorne made a number of attempts to return to the site, as he had gotten a glimpse of a few landmarks which he felt would be easy to pinpoint the spot. However he was never able to find it again.

Many people dismiss this as justanother tall tale, something made up to get free drinks or sell treasure books. Some even go so far as to state that there never was any Doctor Thorn in the southwest at all. Some however have concluded that the lost Doc Thorne "mine" which was not a mine by any description just a gold deposit, is one and the same with the Lost Dutchman mine based on some of the similarities.

What do you think?

I have more to add to this, when I have a bit more time to spend online but this will have to do for starters. Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

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[393stroker]

There`s some stuff about it on the internet. Could be that the needle everybody thinks it is isn``t the right one. Doctor Thorne's Pile of Gold New Findings (Part 1) - Mesa Cryptozoology | Examiner.com

 

[somehiker]

CHAPTER III. EXPEDITIONS INTO INDIAN COUNTRY.

"[page 33]

In July, 1869, Banta, with C. E. Cooley and Henry Wood Dodd, organized an expedition to look for the Doc Thorn Mines. They had with them a few Coyotero Indians for protection and guidance. Before they left the Indian village, Captain Cressy, of the 3rd U. S. Cavalry, stationed at new Fort Wingate, with a detachment of soldiers and a guide, was sent over to inspect the outfits of the three prospectors, which he did on the morning of their departure, July 12th, 1869. The purpose of this inspection was to prevent illicit traffic in arms and ammunition with hostile Indians.

Says Mr. Banta: ‘‘“Of our three selves, each one had his pet object in the consummation of this most remarkable expedition and wild goose chase, viz.: Cooley was for seeking the Doc Thorn placers, in the existence of which he was a firm believer; Dodd to escape, for a time at least, his oldtime and implacable enemy, John Barleycorn; the writer, at that time being young and full of the Quixote spirit for adventure, and not caring a tinker's wink where he went or didn't went, simply went along as a matter of course; anything for adventure and the glad, free life in the open.’’

 

[Springfield]

Just to start off on the right foot, that nice photo is a chunk of picture rock recovered from the Eagles Nest Mine in California and is not a 'Doc Thorne' sample.

 

[Oroblanco]

Just to start off on the right foot, that nice photo is a chunk of picture rock recovered from the Eagles Nest Mine in California and is not a 'Doc Thorne' sample.

I will fix that right now, the pic was for a visual not intended to be from Dr Thorn.

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you for the posts - no one cared to venture an opinion?

I suspect that the Dr Thorn mine and LDM just might be one and the same, but that is a personal opinion.

Some might be surprised to learn that it is not just a yarn, that there IS such a Dr Thorn, also spelled Thorne, named Abraham D Thorn in fact. He is listed in the New Mexico territorial census for 1870, giving his age for that date as 44 years old, white male, from New York, and practicing as a physician. His place of residence is listed as valued at $500, which is quite respectable for that time and place, in the settlement of Limitar (NM). (ref - CENSUS YR: 1870 STATE or TERRITORY: NM COUNTY: Socorro DIVISION: Pct 2, Limitar REEL NO: M593-896 PAGE NO: 469a, REFERENCE: Enumerated on Aug 7, 1870 by J. M. Shaw. Hand-written Page #9 )

Dr Thorn is mentioned in an article as having written a letter to the fort at Wingate, NM in which he reported that his party was turned back by friendly Apaches warning them not to proceed any farther west or the Indians there would kill them, see The Weekly Arizonian., September 04, 1869,page 2 column 2. So he was out looking for the mine in 1869, which is how one version has his story.

May be more to follow, and I would like to hear any opinions about this idea, thank you in advance.
Oroblanco

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Roy,

My thoughts are that it may have been where a mule spilled a load of gold, but I don't know how close it may have been from the massacre site. I believe it was just by a ledge, and not an actual mine.

Homar P. Olivarez

 

[Springfield]

My recollection of the story is that Thorne was not shown a mine, but a cache of highgrade gold ore. If so, and if Waltz's source was also a cache, then it might explain why neither the Waltz nor Thorne 'mines' were discovered. Then the question would be whether any of the cache remains.

 

[markmar]

Oroblanco

I have supported from the beginning of my posts in this topic , how the Apache mine is the same with LDM . From my investigation , I believe how in this small valley are two mines . The Peralta mine , The LDM , an uncovered golden ledge and a cache cave which belonged to Peralta but only the Apache knew about .
In an another thread JackH wrote :

" Quote:
Apache Jack further said that the Apache left a marker. In a steep-climbing arroyo high upon a mountainside where no white prospector would normally think of looking for gold, was a bright yellow ribbon of it in a narrow vein of rose quartz. It lay under towering cliffs, which overhung the whole arroyo, within plain sight of nearby Weaver's Needle, and thinking no white man would ever venture there, the Apaches did not conceal this place. Below was the secret marker, an eight-foot high boulder hoisted upon the skyline of a ridge which, because it formed an abrupt bend in the north-south trending Needle Canyon, formed also for a few hundreds yards the only south slope. This boulder had been chiseled to look like a rampant horse's head with mouth open, one ear laid back and with the other ear standing straight up. However, it was only so recognized against the sky when viewed from down canyon a short ways to the north.

If the Apache's were capable of this Feat, there would be many Monuments to be Witnessed !
Although these Indigenous Peoples have created other Landmarks, they were NOT as creative
(Engineering) as other Civilizations, except like Waltz, in the Direction of the Mine which is Offered !

I believe that Quote above just as much as all the Clue's Waltz offered, other than maybe the
last couple which may have been mis-interpreted! "

After this Quote I posted two pictures from GE with the " yellow ribbon " and the " rampant horse " which are bellow of this valley . From my investigation and using a Waltz clue ( ... Here is the mine . The richest in the world . Some distance about the tunnel on the side of the mountain , is a shaft or incline that is not so steep but one can climb down ... The shaft goes right down in the midst of the rich gold ledge where the gold can picked off in big flakes ) , I see how the golden legde is lower from the LDM . I post again this pictures for you



After Jackh wrote :

" Marius thank you,

I will counter with this image.

The Legend goes like this:

The Mexicans were mining, while there were "Lookouts" high above the Mine.
As the day advanced late into the afternoon, all of a sudden under the breath
of a Scout, "Aye Carrumba", then yelled "EL COBOLLO" & was heard below.
When the miners came out it was said to them "EL COBOLLO" was seen in
the canyon arroyo. "How do you know this ?", was asked, "It was heard from
above !" "And how did he know this ?" "He saw him and someone was holding
his reins !" "Where did you hear this ?" "It came from Jesus !"

I believe , in the beginning , Waltz worked the Peralta mine and after , his Indian girlfriend Ken-Tee showed him the Apache mine and the golden ledge with rose quartz which is behind the horse head . I want to connect the Apache mine with the DeGrazia sketch which posted lgdabois in another thread , and shows Doc Thorne blindfolded near the mine . With this sketch , Degrazia showed how he knew about the " horse head " Apache clue . But this is another story .



In this sketch ( which be reversed for the correct orientation of the horse head ) we can see the " rampant horse " and the location of the Apache mine ( the small Indian face ) in relation with the carved horse head .

I have posted this theory long time ago , but nobody believed me . For me it's Ok .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Post away mi buddy Marius, somebody, past, present or future has to be correct, it could be you.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Coazon de Oro wrote

Howdy Roy,

My thoughts are that it may have been where a mule spilled a load of gold, but I don't know how close it may have been from the massacre site. I believe it was just by a ledge, and not an actual mine.

and Springfield wrote

My recollection of the story is that Thorne was not shown a mine, but a cache of highgrade gold ore. If so, and if Waltz's source was also a cache, then it might explain why neither the Waltz nor Thorne 'mines' were discovered. Then the question would be whether any of the cache remains.

Two points on this idea - first, Silverlock and Malm found a pile of gold ore and rotted pack saddle, then spent years digging the immediate area in search of the source, so it is not likely that any of the original pile remains - unless there are more than one such pack saddle load to be found which is pure speculation. Second, just as Silverlock and Malm concluded - even if the gold of Thorn and Waltz were from a pile of ore like this, the ore still came from a mine in the first place. The mine is not going to be located 200 miles away either, could be as close as a few hundred yards or up to tens of miles away, but still the ore came from a mine. It did not grow out of a pack saddle.

The oldest version that I found had both a lode and placer, and a pile of gold accumulated by the Indians for Dr Thorn; in fact the Indians continued to collect more for him while he pretended it was of little value. The source was just above the visible gold on the ground. But then there are other versions too which have striking similarities.

John D. Mitchell wrote two articles on this mine, one having it as a placer, the other has this intriguing statement;
quote
"Just before sundown the three warriors who were riding ahead halted and asked Thorne to dismlunt. When the others came up, the blindfold was removed and Thorne found himself standing in a narrow canyon. When his eyes had become accustomed to the sunlight, he saw at his feet a white quartz vein about eighteen inches wide, cutting across the bed of the canyon and outcropping in the walls on each side. The vein was full of bright yellow metal that glistened in the sunlight. Before the blindfold was replaced Thorne looked up and saw the four Peaks vividly outlined against the sky."
Lost Mines and Buried Treasures along the Old Frontier, John D. Mitchell, 1954, pp123-124

Markmar wrote

Apache Jack further said that the Apache left a marker. In a steep-climbing arroyo high upon a mountainside where no white prospector would normally think of looking for gold, was a bright yellow ribbon of it in a narrow vein of rose quartz..<snip>

Marius - perhaps you could take heart that it is rare that any two treasure hunters can agree on much of anything when treasure is involved! This description of the ore as a rose quartz, is different from the Apache Jack version that I have, which has it as a black quartz studded with gold "like stars in the night sky". Based on the statements, in my opinion you could make a strong case that John Chuning, with his partners Jim Bark and Sims Ely found the mine of Apache Jack with the black quartz ore and mined it out, as the vein pinched out. The site is today under water unfortunately.

One other point Marius but it often happens that someone will post a theory on some place for a lost mine or treasure, and can't get anyone to go to it. There is a good reason for this, for most tresaure hunters seem to figure that if you are not willing to go to this place you propose, why should they? There have been some individuals that have tried to send people on wild goose chases deliberately, in fact I know of one instance in particular, so we tend to be very hesitant about just heading off to some spot that a total stranger on the internet claims is the Lost Dutchman lost Adams, or treasure of Tumacacori etc. Just pointing out that it is not something personal, it is that we do not know you well enough.

Thank you all for your posts and opinions, there was another point that I forgot to raise earlier too, the 1869 letter/article written by Dr Thorn included the fact that it was Apaches whom had turned his party back, which helps support the story that he had befriended Apaches and not Navajos, as one version has it. If his story was pure fiction, one might argue, why should the Indians have made any effort to protect him from being killed at all?

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. I only have a minute but will try to catch up later.
Oroblanco

 

[markmar]

Coazon de Oro wrote

and Springfield wrote


Two points on this idea - first, Silverlock and Malm found a pile of gold ore and rotted pack saddle, then spent years digging the immediate area in search of the source, so it is not likely that any of the original pile remains - unless there are more than one such pack saddle load to be found which is pure speculation. Second, just as Silverlock and Malm concluded - even if the gold of Thorn and Waltz were from a pile of ore like this, the ore still came from a mine in the first place. The mine is not going to be located 200 miles away either, could be as close as a few hundred yards or up to tens of miles away, but still the ore came from a mine. It did not grow out of a pack saddle.

The oldest version that I found had both a lode and placer, and a pile of gold accumulated by the Indians for Dr Thorn; in fact the Indians continued to collect more for him while he pretended it was of little value. The source was just above the visible gold on the ground. But then there are other versions too which have striking similarities.

John D. Mitchell wrote two articles on this mine, one having it as a placer, the other has this intriguing statement;
quote
"Just before sundown the three warriors who were riding ahead halted and asked Thorne to dismlunt. When the others came up, the blindfold was removed and Thorne found himself standing in a narrow canyon. When his eyes had become accustomed to the sunlight, he saw at his feet a white quartz vein about eighteen inches wide, cutting across the bed of the canyon and outcropping in the walls on each side. The vein was full of bright yellow metal that glistened in the sunlight. Before the blindfold was replaced Thorne looked up and saw the four Peaks vividly outlined against the sky."
Lost Mines and Buried Treasures along the Old Frontier, John D. Mitchell, 1954, pp123-124

Markmar wrote


Marius - perhaps you could take heart that it is rare that any two treasure hunters can agree on much of anything when treasure is involved! This description of the ore as a rose quartz, is different from the Apache Jack version that I have, which has it as a black quartz studded with gold "like stars in the night sky". Based on the statements, in my opinion you could make a strong case that John Chuning, with his partners Jim Bark and Sims Ely found the mine of Apache Jack with the black quartz ore and mined it out, as the vein pinched out. The site is today under water unfortunately.

One other point Marius but it often happens that someone will post a theory on some place for a lost mine or treasure, and can't get anyone to go to it. There is a good reason for this, for most tresaure hunters seem to figure that if you are not willing to go to this place you propose, why should they? There have been some individuals that have tried to send people on wild goose chases deliberately, in fact I know of one instance in particular, so we tend to be very hesitant about just heading off to some spot that a total stranger on the internet claims is the Lost Dutchman lost Adams, or treasure of Tumacacori etc. Just pointing out that it is not something personal, it is that we do not know you well enough.

Thank you all for your posts and opinions, there was another point that I forgot to raise earlier too, the 1869 letter/article written by Dr Thorn included the fact that it was Apaches whom had turned his party back, which helps support the story that he had befriended Apaches and not Navajos, as one version has it. If his story was pure fiction, one might argue, why should the Indians have made any effort to protect him from being killed at all?

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. I only have a minute but will try to catch up later.
Oroblanco

Oroblanco

About rose quartz which become white when is exposed to the sun , have been written many times in different threads . I have wrote about the quartz which is connected with the " rampant horse head " Apache clue . And this clue you can see in two different pictures . Is not doubt about this clue .
Now about the Apache Jack version of the story . The Apache knew many mines in the Superstition and if your version don't tell something about the horse head clue , maybe is another story . The black quartz veins are between Salt River and Black M. and the rose/white are between Black M. to the south .
I don't remember when I gave the impression how I am not willing to go or I wasn't to this place which I described . And I don't remember when I sent people there . Everybody is free to do what he/she believe is correct in his/her way of thinking . And to satisfy you , I say : Don't go there . Maybe I am wrong and maybe you will die .

PS

You wrote " it is that we do not know you well enough. "
When you are lost somewhere and you ask somebody how you can to find your spot , you must to know him well enough to follow his direction ?

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Roy,

I don't think Dr. Thorne's story was pure ficiton when you consider his actions. He did try to find the place later. Here again we have a real, and credible person stating that Apache whom historians claim never ventured into the Superstitions, took him to a gold deposit which geologists claim does not exist in those mountains.

Homar

 

[Oroblanco]

Markmar wrote

Oroblanco

About rose quartz which become white when is exposed to the sun , have been written many times in different threads . I have wrote about the the quartz which is connected with the " rampant horse head " Apache clue . And this clue you can see in two different pictures . Is not doubt about this clue .
Now about the Apache Jack version of the story . The Apache knew many mines in the Superstition and if your version don't tell something about the horse head clue , maybe is another story . The black quartz veins are between Salt River and Black M. and the rose/white are between Black M. to the south .

The version I have comes from Sims Ely's book. Can you give me a suggestion where to find the version you have, with the horse head and rose quartz? Not trying to be funny, would like to read it. Also, how long does it take, for rose quartz to turn into white quartz from exposure to the sun?

Markmar also wrote

I don't remember when I gave the impression how I am not willing to go or I wasn't to this place which I described . And I don't remember when I sent people there . Everybody is free to do what he/she believe is correct in his/her way of thinking . And to satisfy you , I say : Don't go there . Maybe I am wrong and maybe you will die .

I don't recall seeing you offer to go with anyone to the place you described, perhaps I missed it? I do miss some of the posts here and can't follow all the active threads. I was only trying to explain why you did not get more of a reaction, which from what you said, seemed like it puzzled you.

Marmar also wrote

PS

You wrote " it is that we do not know you well enough. "
When you are lost somewhere and you ask somebody how you can to find your spot , you must to know him well enough to follow his direction ?

That is not really the same thing is it? We all have limited amounts of time to spend out in the field searching amigo, so we usually follow our own star so to speak. There are treasure hunters looking for tips on where to go and many are happy to discuss ideas and theories, but we have our own ideas about where to look and will use our limited "field" time on those ideas first. I am sure you do much the same thing, you do not spend your time in the field looking where someone else thinks is best do you?

Homar (Coazon de Oro) wrote

Howdy Roy,

I don't think Dr. Thorne's story was pure ficiton when you consider his actions. He did try to find the place later. Here again we have a real, and credible person stating that Apache whom historians claim never ventured into the Superstitions, took him to a gold deposit which geologists claim does not exist in those mountains.

Homar

I agree - Dr Thorn made a number of attempts to find the mine. The skeptics dismiss the whole thing because there is no record of a Dr Thorn at Ft McDowell, which is assuming that version was "the" whole story, the oldest version does not have Dr Thorn actually make it to the Army post he was trying to get to, he is captured along the way so would not be listed at the fort roster. This Dr Thorn story is (IMHO) pretty solid evidence that Jacob Waltz had a mine, as I think they are one and the same. Even the timeline works, which kind of makes the argument about the LDM has nothing prior to the death of Waltz moot. The fact that we have had a lot of false/phony info get into circulation in recent years does not negate the oldest source information. And yes on the Apaches knowing about gold deposits in the Superstitions. I believe there are several of them - the Peralta/Ludy/Deering mine, the LDM/Dr Thorn, Apache Jack/Pima mine, and Wagoner's ledge of ROSE QUARTZ gold, as well as a silver mine and perhaps one other, somewhere near or in LaBarge canyon.

Thank you all again - I hope you have a very pleasant evening.
Oroblanco

 

[Loke]

if i was a betting man - which I am not - my money would be on Wagoner's gold ... ie I believe I would rather search for that than the LDM.
Markmar - your picture also shows (or rather the title of the picture does) rose quartz - now, since you 'accidentally' forgot to furnish the coordinates, we cant but guess to its location ;-)

Oro - much as it would be extremely nice that both were one and the same - the descriptions do not tally at all. Waltz always seemed to talk about his 'mine', making his caches from working the mine.
Dr Thorne's story seem to indicate a placer - much as what was initially found near Prescott ... picking up gold/pebbles straight from the ground.

 

[markmar]

Oroblanco

You wrote :

The version I have comes from Sims Ely's book. Can you give me a suggestion where to find the version you have, with the horse head and rose quartz? Not trying to be funny, would like to read it. Also, how long does it take, for rose quartz to turn into white quartz from exposure to the sun?

As I wrote , the version of Apache Jack story , wrote JackH in the thread " LDM why you can't to get it map # 10 " and maybe you must to ask him . But , to make you a favor , I sent him an email and I am waiting from an answer . From this version , I matched only the pictures with the clues . Is not amazing how good match ?
Now , for how long does it take to the rose quartz to become white when is exposed to the sun , I believe the answer is : As long as need .

You also wrote :

That is not really the same thing is it? We all have limited amounts of time to spend out in the field searching amigo, so we usually follow our own star so to speak

Never you could know well enough a person . Every day , we discover new " sides " of the people who we believed know well enough . Sometimes is better to use your instinct . Is your best friend .
We follow " our own star " ? Based in what ? In your dreams or in what you read in books . newspapers , forums , etc. and heard around in a hunters company . Not exist " our own star " . The " stars " are in the "sky " and anybody can see them .
You wrote about Tumacacori in your previous post . You wanted to tell me something ?

 

[markmar]

if i was a betting man - which I am not - my money would be on Wagoner's gold ... ie I believe I would rather search for that than the LDM.
Markmar - your picture also shows (or rather the title of the picture does) rose quartz - now, since you 'accidentally' forgot to furnish the coordinates, we cant but guess to its location ;-)

Oro - much as it would be extremely nice that both were one and the same - the descriptions do not tally at all. Waltz always seemed to talk about his 'mine', making his caches from working the mine.
Dr Thorne's story seem to indicate a placer - much as what was initially found near Prescott ... picking up gold/pebbles straight from the ground.

Loke

I believe Apache went with Doc. Thorne to the exposed golden ledge below LDM/Apache mine .From this location , you can see the Four Peaks like one peak , but you can't see the Weaver's Needle . Only if you climb up the gulch , you can see the Weaver's Needle . In this gulch are the mines . I believe from Prescott is impossible to see the Four Peaks in one line .
Now , about the coordinates . I could give them in an open forum , but Oro will accuse me how I send people in a dangerous place to risk their lives . But you not feel dissapointed . If you would bet your money in the Wagoner mine , I will send to you in a PM the coordinates of this location . Is very easy to reach the Wagoner mine and is about 4 hours round trip from the Peralta trail head . I give this spot just to upload the level of confidence for me . You are free to decide if you will go or not .

 

[Somero]

While I have read a couple accounts of the Doc Thorne story I'll admit I am not very familiar with the "facts" pretty much the same view I have of Waltz's mine, the accounts seem to be cloudy. Granted digging deeper may clear up some facts or even prove these lost tales have been found.

It seems that back then, like now, stories of lost mines and hidden treasure in the Superstitions were the driving force for so many to go searching. I'm sure Holmes had heard lots of these stories and maybe felt that Waltz might have an idea where to look since he was a prospector. Who knows he may have tried to follow others also. Perhaps this is where so much of the blending of "clues" may have started, throw in the fact all the different names the canyons and mountains have had along with various descriptions of what to look for, that honestly you can find something that matches somebody's description in more than one place out there, and you have a box full of puzzle pieces from different puzzles that you might get one good picture from.

So with that said, it may be possible to derive that the LDM and Doc Thorne's story are similar, then again one story or both may have nothing to do with Weaver's Needle. My thought is that they are separate locations, Waltz story is a mine or cache on a mountain and Doc's is a cache at the bottom of a canyon. Just the humble, uneducated ramblings from the Peanut Gallery.

 

[Oroblanco]

Another extra coffee alert

Hola amigos - this reply got very long, so I must ask your indulgence, thank you in advance.

Loke wrote

if i was a betting man - which I am not - my money would be on Wagoner's gold ... ie I believe I would rather search for that than the LDM.

What?!!! We have not even found a documented fellow named Wagoner yet amigo! I am tempted to tell you something that might entice you for the LDM first, but not in public.

Loke also wrote

Oro - much as it would be extremely nice that both were one and the same - the descriptions do not tally at all. Waltz always seemed to talk about his 'mine', making his caches from working the mine.
Dr Thorne's story seem to indicate a placer - much as what was initially found near Prescott ... picking up gold/pebbles straight from the ground.

Thorn's story has several variations, one is placer, one is lode, and one is both. Remember, Waltz and his drywasher? Drywashers won't work on lode gold, and the stuff he was seen selling was not placer. Waltz and his mine, and caches, date to AFTER the time period when Thorn was taken to it. So it is possible that Thorn saw the vein and loose gold near it, before Waltz ever found it. Savvy pard? Let me add a little comparison here for you to consider, maybe I can change your mind?

Scarcely an old timer lives in this territory who has not at one time search-ed for a mythical mine, one of those that exist only in legendary, history, or stories that have been handed down from the early pioneers, and to sorne of those,no doubt, imagination had lent an enchanting portion.

While this is true, and the N--deleted-negro Ben mine, the Dr . Thome or the Lost Dutchman claim, all of which are reputed very nch, and of each, much testimony may be secured, may never be found, there is today a firm belief that the Dr. Thorne mine lies hidden somewhere under the shadows of the Four Peaks. An old letter without day or date, or in fact without any marks to identify its author, has been found recently, and it sheds some light on the subject.

In 1860, says this old manuscript, an Apache who himself and squaw had been cured of a loathsome disease by the doctor while at Fort Reno, took Dr. Thorne down the Verde to Salt River, where there are several old arrastras, and then travelled two days east with burros and then camped at the spring near the Four Peaks. The spring came out of a cave, and had tules growing around it.

<some text missing after this on my clipping, sorry to all but I did not note the date or publication it came from originally>

Now consider from Brownie Holmes notes, his account of Dick Holmes trailing Waltz to his mine;

"the first night after his departure from Phoenix, Wolz (sic) camped on the Verde river about two miles north of the place where Granite Reef diversion dam now is. ...Jake Wolz was up early the next morning. ...The trail crossed the river at aan angle, and father could see the faint outline of the pursued man and his mules. ..The trail led to Cottonwood WAsh and as evening approached, Wolz (sic) made his camp at Agua Esondido (Spanish for Hidden Water), so named because this spring is hidden from view."

Hidden Water spring is on the south flank of Four Peaks, in fact I think it is the only spring on the south flank of Four Peaks or at least the only one I know of. Next, on the death of Jacob Waltz, where the the FIRST place that Dick Holmes went to - was it to First Water, as he should have gone by the directions in the Holmes Manuscript? No, he went straight to Hidden Water spring! Funny coincidences huh?

Marius wrote

As I wrote , the version of Apache Jack story , wrote JackH in the thread " LDM why you can't to get it map # 10 " and maybe you must to ask him . But , to make you a favor , I sent him an email and I am waiting from an answer

Thank you for asking, I hope it is not just something made up.

Marius also wrote

Never you could know well enough a person . Every day , we discover new " sides " of the people who we believed know well enough . Sometimes is better to use your instinct . Is your best friend .
We follow " our own star " ? Based in what ? In your dreams or in what you read in books . newspapers , forums , etc. and heard around in a hunters company . Not exist " our own star " . The " stars " are in the "sky " and anybody can see them .

I take it then that you have never heard the expression "follow your star"? In my dreams? Sheesh Marius.

Markmar also wrote

You wrote about Tumacacori in your previous post . You wanted to tell me something ?

Nope, it was used as an example of another legend. Not a hint, hidden suggestion or anything cryptic intended.

Marius wrote

Now , about the coordinates . I could give them in an open forum , but Oro will accuse me how I send people in a dangerous place to risk their lives

Jesse Capen, Curtis Merworth, Malcolm Meeks and Ardean Charles all died in the Superstitions looking for a lost mine amigo, fairly recently. How would you feel if they were following your directions? We should be circumspect when posting stuff on here urging people to go to some remote and potentially dangerous place; it could end in tragedy. I did not accuse you of sending people into dangerous places Marius. Please keep in mind that we whom are posting are NOT the only people that are reading these posts, and someone might be tempted into doing something that could end in disaster just from what we say.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, thank you again and I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[markmar]

Somero

You wrote : " Waltz story is a mine or cache on a mountain and Doc's is a cache at the bottom of a canyon. "

You are correct , my friend . But why in separate canyons ? The most LDM clues say how the mine is in a north - south trending canyon and how this canyon is a tributary canyon . In the picture below you can see :
- how the canyon trending north to south .
- how the canyon is tributary .
- how the uncovered vein of gold is at the bottom of the canyon.
- the carved horse head .
In this tributary canyon and above the exposed golden vein , just choose the side where you believe how the rays of the setting sun could glitter upon the mine .