The Sombrero Mine

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ancientones

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Apr 16, 2010
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I see a polar bear sitting on its ass, while another polar bear head going for the neck. :laughing7:
Would say this is Inca or maybe Aztec, my guess. I would not doubt their sign could
be found in several SW states. My material is after Mexico became a Country, so Mexican.
I have had many advise I am too far out and no minable minerals here. I also believe the FS came to the same conclusion when designating this Wilderness.
I am going with the 'documented and detailed history' of this mine site, by the Mexican miners in 1846/1847.
As for knowing Spanish/Mexican treasure signs/symbols, I may not be an expert but I know more than most.
Add the many clues for the LDM and coincidences only go so far.
Are there Prospecting records for the East side of Peters to contradict the documented Mexican mines here?
 

JohnWhite

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I am no expert…But I believe it is Mayan…Just a guess…

Of course I could be wrong…
Ed T
 

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ancientones

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Apr 16, 2010
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I am no expert…But I believe it is Mayan…Just a guess…

Of course I could be wrong…
Ed T
I would agree with this as well based on your provided evidence. Would take an expert to confirm, the location found, not fake and would like to know the 'meaning' of this. The physical evidence is key. The LDM has not been found as searchers are going off a 2 1/2 mile from Weavers Needle clue. Ask them why, this is where the mine is. The Mexicans, taught by the Spanish, were 'detailed' map makers and very accurate. Jacob killed Mexicans working a Rich mine, he described this. This mine is the legend, not the fact he 'found' it. The Mexican kept detailed maps. Jacob would not have found this Rich Mexican mine, for this time period, undocumented by the Mexicans. Is this his mine, I do not know. To prove which hole his ore on display came from would require a Permit.
The Peralta stones, the Mexican clues such as 'above the junction of wash/canyon'(Tortilla/Peters). This is a 1 hr walk from Tortilla Flat to this hilltop and can follow the mule trail to 'this' mine and others, trail markers and 'cleared ground' so the symbols could been seen from the mtn. top. Physical evidence, 1 hr walk. The mines are barrel size openings that open up inside. Not an expert on mines but am open to feedback on an explanation? This would come from someone skilled in Spanish/Mexican mining and what they did to identify Treasure sites. To discount the stories of the Mexican, Apache, and others about this rich mine would imply there is 'another' undocumented rich Mexican mine 2 1/2 miles from WN, being mined at the same time.
 

markmar

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I am no expert…But I believe it is Mayan…Just a guess…

Of course I could be wrong…
Ed T
IMO, it's an Aztec image of Coatl ( snake ) which also represents east ( direction ).
 

Clay Diggins

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Would you be willing to explain why it is nonsense? Not doubting, just want to learn. Thanks.
As I explained earlier in this same thread
The law allows the taking of mineral samples in Wilderness. There are no permits required.

On the other hand if you want to search for treasure trove you will need a permit. Luckily that doesn't apply in this situation because a mine is not a treasure trove.
 
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ancientones

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Apr 16, 2010
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As I explained earlier in this same thread
The law allows the taking of mineral samples in Wilderness. There are no permits required.

On the other hand if you want to search for treasure trove you will need a permit. Luckily that doesn't apply in this situation because a mine is not a treasure trove.

Prospecting

Prospecting is the gathering of information on mineral resources. Prospecting is allowed within a designated Wilderness Area, but an approved Plan of Operations is required. No person can acquire any right of interest to mineral resources discovered by prospecting or other information-gathering activity. Extraction of minerals (except a small grab sample) is a type of mining, and must comply with all related laws and regulations; see "Mining" below. If the search is for precious worked metal or other treasure, see "Treasure Trove Hunting" below.

A 'grab sample' out of a tailing pile would not provide a sample sufficient for a positive test. I have been advised 20 to 40 lbs and still may not test positive. Also, what is the purpose of a sample if the clues do not fit, unless you are just after gold? Does it make sense one could bring in a sample that test positive for his gold, this is proof one can now claim they found the LDM, and the clues do not matter? Knowing this, what 3rd party does this sample test process, ensuring it is confidential, and who then compares and confirms with the sample on file? I have spoken to 'several' LD museum staff and they are lost on what I am asking. What is this process for one that may have a sample?
My material is for those interested in the 'story', the Mexican mines, the clues for the rich mine, the history on why it is at this location. When you are advised you are in the wrong place, no minable minerals there, enough times, you realize the mine/location is not what is of interest to them.
A Permit may not be required to prove his mine and location, I am open to any suggestions that make sense.
And you are correct, the Permit is not to see what is in the Sombrero Mine 75 ft back, although I really would like to see this to prove this side of the story. The other mines and if the Apache threw the mined ore with the tools back into them before they buried them. What these veins may look like as far as gold still in them. May be against the law to mine but this is a historical gold mining site, whether his mine is a couple hundred feet away or 2 1/2 miles from WN. The Permit request allowed me to provide my evidence on why I want to remove some rocks covering what I believe is his mine, the 'exact' location, pictures of the rock pile undisturbed, why his mine is here(the rich Mexican mine and other mines), the clues for all of this. The permit, for the cache, allows this.
I apologize for my questions and appreciate the responses. I understand technology may be an option?
A hand held analyzer that can read/record this and is acceptable?
Thanks again
 
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Clay Diggins

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§ 228.4 Plan of operations - notice of intent - requirements.


(a) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a notice of intent to operate is required from any person proposing to conduct operations which might cause significant disturbance of surface resources. Such notice of intent to operate shall be submitted to the District Ranger having jurisdiction over the area in which the operations will be conducted. Each notice of intent to operate shall provide information sufficient to identify the area involved, the nature of the proposed operations, the route of access to the area of operations, and the method of transport.

(1) A notice of intent to operate is not required for:

(ii) Prospecting and sampling which will not cause significant surface resource disturbance and will not involve removal of more than a reasonable amount of mineral deposit for analysis and study which generally might include searching for and occasionally removing small mineral samples or specimens, gold panning, metal detecting, non-motorized hand sluicing, using battery operated dry washers, and collecting of mineral specimens using hand tools;

(iv) Underground operations which will not cause significant surface resource disturbance;

____________________________________________

Educate yourself and prosper. :thumbsup:
 

Clay Diggins

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A 'grab sample' out of a tailing pile would not provide a sample sufficient for a positive test. I have been advised 20 to 40 lbs and still may not test positive.
You have been ill advised. A grab sample is the size of your hand. Grab samples are what assays are based on. There is no need for multi pound samples to conduct an assay. Usually assays are conducted on less than 60 grams of material.

Alternatively you could do what professional prospectors and geologists do - take an XRF gun with you and sample as you go. It's completely non invasive, gives instant results and doesn't require recovering physical rock samples. I know the southern edge of the wilderness has already been tested this way extensively several times.

What you are calling "tailing piles" don't exist where you are searching. Tailing piles are the remains of ore after it is ground to a fine powder and processed to recover the metallic values. It is essentially a very fine grained mud. If there were tailing piles that would be proof of mining - not proof of gold or even anything worth mining but proof someone tried. The rock you see piled outside a mine are not tailings they are waste rock, or more properly called gangue.

Most of the "mines" you see in the Superstitions are actually natural channels in the volcanic tuff. Tuff is hot welded volcanic ash flows that harden into rock as they cool. These channels are natural and expected in Tuff formations. The rock you see around the channel openings is usually where the roof of the channel has collapsed as it's subject to erosion. Tuff is used world wide as a building material because it's relatively soft and easy to cut into blocks or caved into a hillside.

Educate Yourself and Prosper. :thumbsup:
 
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ancientones

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Apr 16, 2010
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You have been ill advised. A grab sample is the size of your hand. Grab samples are what assays are based on. There is no need for multi pound samples to conduct an assay. Usually assays are conducted on less than 60 grams of material.

Alternatively you could do what professional prospectors and geologists do - take an XRF gun with you and sample as you go. It's completely non invasive, gives instant results and doesn't require recovering physical rock samples. I know the southern edge of the wilderness has already been tested this way extensively several times.

What you are calling "tailing piles" don't exist where you are searching. Tailing piles are the remains of ore after it is ground to a fine powder and processed to recover the metallic values. It is essentially a very fine grained mud. If there were tailing piles that would be proof of mining - not proof of gold or even anything worth mining but proof someone tried. The rock you see piled outside a mine are not tailings they are waste rock, or more properly called gangue.

Most of the "mines" you see in the Superstitions are actually natural channels in the volcanic tuff. Tuff is hot welded volcanic ash flows that harden into rock as they cool. These channels are natural and expected in Tuff formations. The rock you see around the channel openings is usually where the roof of the channel has collapsed as it's subject to erosion. Tuff is used world wide as a building material because it's relatively soft and easy to cut into blocks or caved into a hillside.

Educate Yourself and Prosper. :thumbsup:
I agree on ill advised, my delima for many years. I am not a prospector and have reached out to many on 'what
would you do if you found what you thought was his mine? How would you prove this?' Other than his cache there is no interest here. For me, this is my interest. I will need to do the research on if a XRF gun would obtain the reading to match the ore on file and would be accepted as proof. Can maybe video while doing this so can prove the reading was taken at the site. And am not sure how deep in rock it can go for a positive hit. The vein is buried.
These are not volcanic tuff or vents, although this is here also. These are the Mexican mines on the Peralta Heart inlay stones, the maps clearly shows these canyons. These are East of Peters and South of Tortilla. Who has been 5 miles North of Weavers Needle, East side of Peters canyon, and can say there are no minable minerals there? The Peralta Stones, sketch maps, 'signs' on hillsides, trails and trail markers, stories , all recorded and documented history of gold mines here. One would then believe these Jacob Waltz clues: killed Mexicans mining a rich mine, saw 8 other mines, and enough gold to make 20 men millionaires.
 

Idahodutch

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I agree on ill advised, my delima for many years. I am not a prospector and have reached out to many on 'what
would you do if you found what you thought was his mine? How would you prove this?' Other than his cache there is no interest here. For me, this is my interest. I will need to do the research on if a XRF gun would obtain the reading to match the ore on file and would be accepted as proof. Can maybe video while doing this so can prove the reading was taken at the site. And am not sure how deep in rock it can go for a positive hit. The vein is buried.
These are not volcanic tuff or vents, although this is here also. These are the Mexican mines on the Peralta Heart inlay stones, the maps clearly shows these canyons. These are East of Peters and South of Tortilla. Who has been 5 miles North of Weavers Needle, East side of Peters canyon, and can say there are no minable minerals there? The Peralta Stones, sketch maps, 'signs' on hillsides, trails and trail markers, stories , all recorded and documented history of gold mines here. One would then believe these Jacob Waltz clues: killed Mexicans mining a rich mine, saw 8 other mines, and enough gold to make 20 men millionaires.
Ancientones,
What to do?
There is technology that requires no disturbances.
I personally know of one particular device that can penetrate to depths of 40 meters, and out to a distance of 3,000 meters.

Here is a snip of it.
E6183959-6112-4175-AA87-B63A35638AC0.jpeg


It’s called the Gold Legend, by Geoground.
Yes, I own one. I used it out there, to verify one of two gold deposits.
I was not well when I was out there with the device, so we had to cut the trip short, …. meaning we did not have opportunity to seek verification of the 2nd deposit.

No matter what you might use, it is my personal belief, the only way to prove to the masses, is to bring out some ore ..
🥹
Good luck. 😜

PS - I did not bother to go to such extremes, until all the critical clues lined up to one vicinity. When I say all, I don’t mean “sort of” so don’t be blaming me or the machine, if you don’t get results you seek. 😎

Sincerely,
Idahodutch
 

Idahodutch

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Or try an actual scientific tool used by professionals worldwide.

Portable XRF Analyzer & Price List

Hello Clay,
Glad my post amused you 😁
We’ll if I had $30+ thousand to lay down, and was unconcerned about transporting the expensive device, maybe.

I didn’t watch all the videos, and didn’t see a link to specifications, so I’m not sure the device can read through to the depth needed for reading deposits that are buried.
According to legend, one deposit is at least 75’ deep.
The other is about 9-10’ deep to top of cache. Searched 1 meter deep, then 2, and at 3 meters, and over a pretty large area. it was verified at 3 meters.

Yeah, totally unscientific 😂

If you know off top of your head, please share 👍😁
Excess of $30k is a lot of $ for this hombre. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Thanks as this is all good info.
Idahodutch.
 
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ancientones

Jr. Member
Apr 16, 2010
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Ancientones,
What to do?
There is technology that requires no disturbances.
I personally know of one particular device that can penetrate to depths of 40 meters, and out to a distance of 3,000 meters.

Here is a snip of it.
View attachment 2079033

It’s called the Gold Legend, by Geoground.
Yes, I own one. I used it out there, to verify one of two gold deposits.
I was not well when I was out there with the device, so we had to cut the trip short, …. meaning we did not have opportunity to seek verification of the 2nd deposit.

No matter what you might use, it is my personal belief, the only way to prove to the masses, is to bring out some ore ..
🥹
Good luck. 😜

PS - I did not bother to go to such extremes, until all the critical clues lined up to one vicinity. When I say all, I don’t mean “sort of” so don’t be blaming me or the machine, if you don’t get results you seek. 😎

Sincerely,
Idahodutch
Idahodutch,
I am amazed that a story about gold mining in the Superstitions by a Mexican mining party in
1846/1847, 100? clues from multiple sources for this 'rich' mine and site, including Jacob Waltz(except his 2 1/2 vs 5 mile)is of no interest. My thread is about this and the connection. I could bring ore in and the FIRST thing asked will be where is was obtained. I would then need to 'prove' it was taken from here, legally. Since mining is illegal a perfect catch 22. I cannot trust those just after gold, I will be in a dangerous position when clues do not matter-if this makes sense.
Do you have a plan, if healthy, what you would do at your site and the results of a Gold Meter? What does it prove other than gold in the ground? The Mexicans already documented this. His actual mine, depending on the story, cannot legally be found/exposed. The cache will verify ore, but what part did the ore already mined by the Mexicans he killed 'play' into this? Is this his ore or theirs? Is the 'on file' ore his or theirs? If you have some good answers for me I am all ears :)
Would you have someone you trust to 'test' this site and a stack of rocks, if this can help prove his mine?
1681575011606.png
 

Clay Diggins

Silver Member
Nov 14, 2010
4,702
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The Great Southwest
Primary Interest:
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Hello Clay,
Glad my post amused you 😁
We’ll if I had $30+ thousand to lay down, and was unconcerned about transporting the expensive device, maybe.

I didn’t watch all the videos, and didn’t see a link to specifications, so I’m not sure the device can read through to the depth needed for reading deposits that are buried.
According to legend, one deposit is at least 75’ deep.
The other is about 9-10’ deep to top of cache. Searched 1 meter deep, then 2, and at 3 meters, and over a pretty large area. it was verified at 3 meters.

Yeah, totally unscientific 😂

If you know off top of your head, please share 👍😁
Excess of $30k is a lot of $ for this hombre. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Thanks as this is all good info.
Idahodutch.
Sorry I don't know of any working instruments that detect legends. ;)

XRF are the only portable devices that can detect a wide range of elements quickly and non-invasively.

A very good XRF unit can detect and define elements anywhere from a micron or two deep for the precious metals (Silver, Gold) to a centimeter deep for the light high energy metals like Calcium, Aluminum and Potassium.

In the world of science the XRF is the best you are going to do for a portable non invasive elemental detector. If you are looking for just bulk gold or silver deposits there are purpose built portable detectors that can locate ounce size gold masses as deep as 20 inches. There is no evidence of gold of that size in the Superstitions but feel free to poke around. These detectors will make no distinction as to which deposit the gold comes from.

From what I've heard some machines based on belief, not science, can find even small deposits thousands of miles away. I can see where the lower priced models (bent coat hangars, forked stick) might be an attractive possibility but as the price for these dowsing devices approaches the thousands of dollars I have to say I'm suspicious of the manufacturers veracity. If these devices are someday proven effective I'm sure eventually a religion will grow around them based on these beliefs.

I don't discuss religion or politics on the forums. I think everyone is entitled to their beliefs so I'll leave it at that.
 

Idahodutch

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Idahodutch,
I am amazed that a story about gold mining in the Superstitions by a Mexican mining party in
1846/1847, 100? clues from multiple sources for this 'rich' mine and site, including Jacob Waltz(except his 2 1/2 vs 5 mile)is of no interest. My thread is about this and the connection. I could bring ore in and the FIRST thing asked will be where is was obtained. I would then need to 'prove' it was taken from here, legally. Since mining is illegal a perfect catch 22. I cannot trust those just after gold, I will be in a dangerous position when clues do not matter-if this makes sense.
Do you have a plan, if healthy, what you would do at your site and the results of a Gold Meter? What does it prove other than gold in the ground? The Mexicans already documented this. His actual mine, depending on the story, cannot legally be found/exposed. The cache will verify ore, but what part did the ore already mined by the Mexicans he killed 'play' into this? Is this his ore or theirs? Is the 'on file' ore his or theirs? If you have some good answers for me I am all ears :)
Would you have someone you trust to 'test' this site and a stack of rocks, if this can help prove his mine?
View attachment 2079068
Ancientones,
My thoughts about the various mines that legends indicate, that are located in the Superstitions; are that many such mines exist, or existed at one time.

My focus has primarily been on only one legend, and that’s the LDM.
, (Lost Dutchman Mine). There are clues and stories associated with the LDM. There is also a Peralta connection in part of the LDM clues/stories.

I personally believe that the backstory, and path to Waltz’ mine, as supposedly told by Julia Thomas in an interview, is very, very accurate.
I also believe that a different path to Waltz’ mine that was he supposedly gave to Dick Holmes, is also true and accurate.

I put the highest trust on those two accounts.
Much of the remaining clues/stories, to me, are suspect of not belonging, or not accurate, while many others there is not much of a way to know …. Unless you can actually find the correct spot, without them.

So, there is in my opinion, a location that corresponds precisely to those two accounts mentioned. Logically, they are the most complete, and we’re actually intended, each of those two, to direct the recipients to Waltz’ mine, independently of each other.
So then it would make sense, if someone finds the need to stretch or modify those directions, to the LDM, then it’s not the LDM.

Stone maps, as far as I can tell, are not associated with Waltz’ mine.
Can’t say for sure, but I don’t think it is.

I have said before, I think you have found a cool find. I don’t think it fits those two main sets of clues, unless lots is modified.
That’s just my opinion. 🤗

I’m pretty sure that’s not what you wanted to hear, but you asked 🥹
Idahodutch
 

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