The Sombrero Mine

[JohnWhite]

To each their own…I am no expert by any means…Heck, when I pass, nobody will remember me…As far as some of the things I have given away, well- that’s another story…

As IF there are diamonds in Reno…IF God is willing…A lucky s.o.b will stumble upon one, some day…Who knows Someone just may stumble upon some of the areas I used to play in one day…

I even wonder IF one day I may become the next Dutchman…I too wonder IF I may become a larger legend than Jacob Waltz I wonder who is in possession of the wire gold specimens, the crooked assayer from Sacramento got from my 4.86 pounds of ore

IF God is willing, someone will find this mine one day…But I doubt anyone will find any of my little playgrounds…

There is more to life than what man considers as riches…IF I really wanted to be wealthy…I don’t think I’d have any problem becoming wealthy…I still believe that one day I will win the lottery, IF God is willing…

So much for religion and politics…



Ed T🤣

 

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[ancientones]

Ancientones,
My thoughts about the various mines that legends indicate, that are located in the Superstitions; are that many such mines exist, or existed at one time.

My focus has primarily been on only one legend, and that’s the LDM.
, (Lost Dutchman Mine). There are clues and stories associated with the LDM. There is also a Peralta connection in part of the LDM clues/stories.

I personally believe that the backstory, and path to Waltz’ mine, as supposedly told by Julia Thomas in an interview, is very, very accurate.
I also believe that a different path to Waltz’ mine that was he supposedly gave to Dick Holmes, is also true and accurate.

I put the highest trust on those two accounts.
Much of the remaining clues/stories, to me, are suspect of not belonging, or not accurate, while many others there is not much of a way to know …. Unless you can actually find the correct spot, without them.

So, there is in my opinion, a location that corresponds precisely to those two accounts mentioned. Logically, they are the most complete, and we’re actually intended, each of those two, to direct the recipients to Waltz’ mine, independently of each other.
So then it would make sense, if someone finds the need to stretch or modify those directions, to the LDM, then it’s not the LDM.

Stone maps, as far as I can tell, are not associated with Waltz’ mine.
Can’t say for sure, but I don’t think it is.

I have said before, I think you have found a cool find. I don’t think it fits those two main sets of clues, unless lots is modified.
That’s just my opinion. 🤗

I’m pretty sure that’s not what you wanted to hear, but you asked 🥹
Idahodutch

Idahodutch
I am always open to your feedback. I do not know your spot but would hope you do not put your faith in 1 clue-all of his clues should fit. He described killing Mexicans, a Rich mine including the depth, and a barrel size opening. Is there a Mexican connection, yes. Is this the same rich mine, I don't know. But the clues I have are for the rich mine
in the Legend. There is not a legal way to prove his mine and his cache is not my quest, I have seen more looking for 1 lost mine than I could imagine.
This is a photo looking South up Peters canyon. I posted a pic a while back of a large Heart on the hillside with 5? mines per the mine symbol inside the Heart. You can see part of the Heart in this pic. The dark rock outcropping is where these mines are. These are also identified in the Heart inlay stones. The trails lead up to the outcroppings
where they would place markers/monuments to show the mine location. Dutchman clue: You pass a Rock Wall Face on the West side of the Canyon.

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch
I am always open to your feedback. I do not know your spot but would hope you do not put your faith in 1 clue-all of his clues should fit. He described killing Mexicans, a Rich mine including the depth, and a barrel size opening. Is there a Mexican connection, yes. Is this the same rich mine, I don't know. But the clues I have are for the rich mine
in the Legend. There is not a legal way to prove his mine and his cache is not my quest, I have seen more looking for 1 lost mine than I could imagine.
This is a photo looking South up Peters canyon. I posted a pic a while back of a large Heart on the hillside with 5? mines per the mine symbol inside the Heart. You can see part of the Heart in this pic. The dark rock outcropping is where these mines are. These are also identified in the Heart inlay stones. The trails lead up to the outcroppings
where they would place markers/monuments to show the mine location. Dutchman clue: You pass a Rock Wall Face on the West side of the Canyon.
View attachment 2079154

Good morning Ancientones,
I’m not sure you understand what I’ve been trying to say.
This isn’t about my area of interest, but rather, just trying to answer your questions … starting with could the mine you found, be the LDM. 🫤
I’ve come to the conclusion, that the question, you posed, about possibly your find also being LDM, was rhetorical in your mind, and that no amount of evidence, or conversations, are going to put a dent in your beliefs. 🥹
So my friend, good luck on your endeavors, and may the force be with you. 🤓👍
Sincerely, Idahodutch

 

[ancientones]

Good morning Ancientones,
I’m not sure you understand what I’ve been trying to say.
This isn’t about my area of interest, but rather, just trying to answer your questions … starting with could the mine you found, be the LDM. 🫤
I’ve come to the conclusion, that the question, you posed, about possibly your find also being LDM, was rhetorical in your mind, and that no amount of evidence, or conversations, are going to put a dent in your beliefs. 🥹
So my friend, good luck on your endeavors, and may the force be with you. 🤓👍
Sincerely, Idahodutch

Idahodutch,
We are on 2 different pages, but should not be. The Dutchman clues are good, and when he said the peak/needle is to the South, he would not then say 'any direction from the needle'(Julia). This is a 'key' something not right. My material and knowledge of Spanish/Mexican mining confirms, for me, the story of these mines and history is accurate. The mining symbols are removed when the mine is cleared-this is fact. There were no codes to their instructions for future generations to mine the same mines on their land. The Apache, or US Territory, they then had to leave the mines. They came back to the rich mine and Jacob entered the story. Depending on which story, the 'Legendary Rich Gold Mine in the Superstitions' was not mined by Jacob Waltz. My quest has been complete, other than sending a drone into this mine to see what is 75 ft back. If one day you want to see more closer pictures of this rocky knob, send me a message . Historically, this place is loaded-I believe the Apache Massacre one.
There are several 'houses' on the South side of Tortilla, on the Western slope of the Mtn., Peters canyon West on other side of mountain. The trail goes around this mtn. from this camp to the mines in Peters. Ore was processed here for the mines in the 'heart', and sent back along the Peralta trail.

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch,
We are on 2 different pages, but should not be. The Dutchman clues are good, and when he said the peak/needle is to the South, he would not then say 'any direction from the needle'(Julia). This is a 'key' something not right. My material and knowledge of Spanish/Mexican mining confirms, for me, the story of these mines and history is accurate. The mining symbols are removed when the mine is cleared-this is fact. There were no codes to their instructions for future generations to mine the same mines on their land. The Apache, or US Territory, they then had to leave the mines. They came back to the rich mine and Jacob entered the story. Depending on which story, the 'Legendary Rich Gold Mine in the Superstitions' was not mined by Jacob Waltz. My quest has been complete, other than sending a drone into this mine to see what is 75 ft back. If one day you want to see more closer pictures of this rocky knob, send me a message . Historically, this place is loaded-I believe the Apache Massacre one.
There are several 'houses' on the South side of Tortilla, on the Western slope of the Mtn., Peters canyon West on other side of mountain. The trail goes around this mtn. from this camp to the mines in Peters. Ore was processed here for the mines in the 'heart', and sent back along the Peralta trail.

View attachment 2079221

Ancientones,
We are not on the same page, for good reason. You took liberty to modify clues, to change them to fit your spot.
Those 2 sets of directional clues from Julia and Dick Holmes, that I spoke of, are in a specific order…… not a free for all. Not a pick one, leave one deal either 🫤.
You don’t have to believe me, you don’t need to try to convince me of your thinking. 🤓👍

Once again, I hope you enjoy your search. 😀
Sincerely,
Idahodutch.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hello again LDM hunters and Thank You for the interest in my material. This is a continuation of my thread 'Is the Lost Dutchman Mine the Sombrero Mine?'.
View attachment 2065607
'Above the junction of a West flowing canyon/wash(Tortilla) and a North flowing canyon/wash(Peters) you will find clues to the mine'.
This is a pic of a rock pinnacle just East of this Junction of Tortilla Wash and Peters Canyon. This has been 'chipped' on top to form the shape of a Heart and would
be seen from a good distance as you enter the mining 'site' from the East. This was to advise the Mexican miners they had arrived at their destination.
The Peralta Stone maps show a trail coming in from the West. This is a pic of this junction, the 'chipped' Heart is to the right
The red dashes are this trail coming in from the West, into Peters, across this hilltop, and then into Tortilla Wash heading South.
View attachment 2065643
This is a pic of the 'stone' trail marker.
View attachment 2065644
This is a 'current' 2023 google close up of this hilltop.
View attachment 2065697
Next is a google pic of the same hilltop, this is dated 2007.
For any 'Spanish/Mexican' treasure hunter I cannot emphasize enough the benefits Google Earth can provide. They made 'maps' out of the terrain,
and they were very good at this. Depending on the 'terrain' I would think these could be found at many of their sites around Az, Mexico, etc.-'depending on the terrain'..
The Mexican miners would have 'scouts' that would go to the 'mountain tops'. With 'eye glasses' they would scan the hill sides and hill tops for these 'symbols/signs' to show them the way. The 'sign/symbol' site would be cleared of rock, brush and at their time would have been clear to see. Over time these will disappear, however, if you 'change' your Google 'time' zones you can find them. I find 2007 is best for me. I believe the mountain to the 'South' of this junction is 'Geronimo Head, looking at the sky'. You can see this from the 'West', such as on the road to Payson. The 'knob' on the top South end of this mountain top is the 'Sombrero' hill identified in the maps to name this mine, which is across the 'gulch'(Peters) to the East. From this mountain top looking North they would see the below.
X This is the 'trail' symbol and would be placed along the trail. See this symbol and a 'trail' is there.
- ) Separated Arrow This advised to 'continue this way but pay attention to the next symbol'.
Circle with a Dot in the center This is the mine symbol. The 'line' is providing the direction.
These are almost 200 years old yet can still be seen and advise where the trail is and the direction to go to the mine.
View attachment 2065647
This is a google from the top of the 'chipped' Heart rock, looking South at the South side of Tortilla Wash. The Peralta Stone Map trail entering Tortilla is below on the right. There is a triangle shaped area 'cleared of brush' , the arrow is pointing to this. There is a 'X' trail symbol in this cleared area(next pic). This is not the trail to the Sombrero mine, this trail is in the bottom of the wash and exits past this spot.
View attachment 2065861
View attachment 2065880
This is a sketch map dated 1846, my apologies this is upside down, it will match up better for the following pic.
I have marked Tortilla Wash, Peters Canyon and the Sombrero-which is not listed on this map.
View attachment 2065984
This is a google pic of this sketch map location. Other than the Sombrero mine these tack marks are just an estimate location based on the trails/signs, but I have no doubt they are there. There is a Heart inlay stone dated 1847 reflecting 10 mines 'within the Heart'. They left in 1847 and as far as I know only came back to the Sombrero due to so rich. There is a 3? mile broken ridge that runs in a 'line', the Sombrero mine is on the right(inside the red square). There is a 'black' vein in this broken ridgeline, pics of what this same rock looks like up close I have posted previously. If you zoom down, you can see a red dirt vein(Iron) on top running parallel with this broken ridge. The Mexican miners had 'current' maps and were updating them, dug out mines would not be on these current maps, and they are about to get booted out.
View attachment 2065985

When the Mexican miners come into this site from the South, they entered from the 'East' end dropping down off
the broken ridge down close to Tortilla Wash and would 'head West'. This trail is between the 2 'left' yellow tacks. 'East' of the Sombrero mine, across the Mountain and below the 2 mine tacks, this is a pic of the 'West' slope of this mountain, Tortilla Wash is on the bottom right.
View attachment 2066051
This is a 2007 pic of this same slope. I have been advised my 'signs/symbols' I see are just 'shadows' so my apologies if unable to 'see'. It appears to me that there is a large section covering several of these 'hills' that had been cleared and symbols placed. The bottom arrow is for a symbol that was 'added' to show the way to the newly found Sombrero. I see the 'X' trail symbol, a 'half circle', and a line. I believe the half circle is the same as the half circle on the Peralta Heart stone for the Sombrero and is implying 'to go around the mountain'-trail the direction of the line. The top arrow is pointing to a 'Heart' shape. Alot of effort was put into this site.
View attachment 2066059
I believe there was a camp in here, and if I go the direction of the 'line' on the hillside symbol, this trail goes up and over the North side of this Mtn. This is a pic from the North looking at the Peters canyon side, and the yellow dashes show this trail. It goes to this mine, and possibly others. It also continues South down Peters Canyon. I believe the miners hauled the ore to the camp to be processed to haul home.
View attachment 2066190
*Be sure to use different 'time zones' on google to look at these.
The terrain in here is restricted so the miners had few places to make/go with a mule. If you can see a trail it had traffic and is important, such as above. Just past the Ledge with the Sombrero mine is a gulch, and a trail going up, coming from the North. The main trail South is in the canyon floor. I can see a trail going up this slope, and one going into the gulch. I do not know if these are prospects or mines, but when I can see a trail going into a dead-end gulch, or into a cliff face or up onto a dead-end ledge, there is a reason.
View attachment 2066194

 

[jeffhowlett]

This is where LaBarge turns and heads NW. I will show my estimation on his sketch map and his directions but
I have not verified this in the field. This is based off of GE and what I see.
There is a trail going straight N from LaBarge, and goes up a ridge. There is another trail to the left of this trail, a
rock pillar at this junction. There is a saddle on this long ridge, and at the end of the ridge 4 Peaks line up(N) and Weavers is South. Around the saddle area the trail goes down to enter the canyon to continue to the camp.
There are 'Mexican sign' on the hillside and a trail, this would match the sketch map if arrow is Peters. So mines on the 'West' side of Peters as well. I believe the straight and squiggly line and dot with arrow are pointing to the 'side' canyon East and its layout and mine-one of a few in this side canyon.
If his clue was 'It lies within a 5 mi circle of WN, Volcanic Peak, rock sticking up', his other clues will fit.
There is a 'large gold deposit' that runs 3 mi. along a ridge 'pushed up' exposing this on the Western
edges. The people finding and mining them(1846, 1847) had to leave, but they made sign/maps so future trips would know where to go-these were not 'tapped out'-they have value to come back to.
Is this the LDM? Which one?
View attachment 2073688
View attachment 2073689

I believe the heading of this thread to be most likely to be incorrect and misleading not on purpose but in nature.

 

[jeffhowlett]

I believe the heading of this thread to be most likely to be incorrect and misleading not on purpose but in nature.

I believe the Mexicans said that they could see their Sombreo mines when looked across the canyon from their rich funneled pit mine and never referred to the pit mine as their Sombreo pit mine. We are on-site and can see LA or El Sombrero (hat on a mountain)( you can see on our site) across the canyon from the pit mine. Also adjacent and under La Sombrero we can see several mines..... hence most likely their Sombreo mines. We also can see 4 peaks as 1. And yes we have found Waltz or someone mined both sides of the mountain ( 2 pit mines). You can see the Hat on a mountain on our site. At the 2015 Rendazvue on Saturday I sat and talked with Mike Gwen, and he graciously shared some thoughts with me. He was truly a nice man, so sorry to hear he passed. History is sadly leaving us, some things will never be the same, the Mike Gwens were a special breed of men.
.

 

[ancientones]

I believe the Mexicans said that they could see their Sombreo mines when looked across the canyon from their rich funneled pit mine and never referred to the pit mine as their Sombreo pit mine. We are on-site and can see LA or El Sombrero (hat on a mountain)( you can see on our site) across the canyon from the pit mine. Also adjacent and under La Sombrero we can see several mines..... hence most likely their Sombreo mines. We also can see 4 peaks as 1. And yes we have found Waltz or someone mined both sides of the mountain ( 2 pit mines). You can see the Hat on a mountain on our site. At the 2015 Rendazvue on Saturday I sat and talked with Mike Gwen, and he graciously shared some thoughts with me. He was truly a nice man, so sorry to hear he passed. History is sadly leaving us, some things will never be the same, the Mike Gwens were a special breed of men.
.

There is a sketch map posted that shows Peters Canyon, the mine, cave, tunnel, etc., and on the top Left the 'Sombrero'. This is for a 'mound' on the top North end of Malapais Mtn., above the mine, across the canyon. There is an article from the original Mexican mining party talking about this 'rich' mine, they call it The Sombrero Mine due to its location to the Sombrero across the canyon, on top of the hill. As for mines on both sides of Peters Canyon, inside the Heart
boundary they have 20+ mines marked.

 

[jeffhowlett]

There is a sketch map posted that shows Peters Canyon, the mine, cave, tunnel, etc., and on the top Left the 'Sombrero'. This is for a 'mound' on the top North end of Malapais Mtn., above the mine, across the canyon. There is an article from the original Mexican mining party talking about this 'rich' mine, they call it The Sombrero Mine due to its location to the Sombrero across the canyon, on top of the hill. As for mines on both sides of Peters Canyon, inside the Heart
boundary they have 20+ mines marked.

Thanks, ancient ones, would you please post an image, of that map, I'm not sure which one you are referencing. I may have missed, those notations. There is lots of info out there so it is good for me to try and be accurate. Also, would you post the article I really would like to see it, maybe there is other info in the article that is of importance. Thank you Jeff,

 

[DanB]

You continue to perpetuate this myth. There is no (zero) evidence the Spanish ever mined in the Superstitions. You have presented none and no man has ever found evidence of Spanish mining in the Superstitions.

Here is the history of Spanish mining in the Southwest from the National Park Service:

We have no real evidence of mining in this region during the Spanish Mission Period; the story on this frontier, in the 18th century and first two decades of the 19th, is rather that of the occasional prospector and explorer, who knew that the only sure way to capture attention and support for his particular project was to report every possibility of mineral wealth to the King of Spain, whose treasury was never sufficient for Spain's world-wide commitments. South of the Spanish outposts along the Santa Cruz Valley, a few adventurous men did a little prospecting and worked a vein of silver or washed gold for a short time, until the vein or pocket pinched out, or the Apaches drove them away. Even the fabulously rich find of the 'Planchas de Plata,' 30 miles south of Tumacacori, where large pieces of silver were picked up on the surface, was not developed into a mine; the 'mother lode' was never found. The only known operating mine in the whole of Arizona and New Mexico during Spanish times was the copper mine at Santa Rita, New Mexico, developed after 1800.

There is no (zero) evidence of a Peralta mine in the Superstitions. The legend of there being a Don Miguel Peralta involved anywhere in the Superstitions of Arizona was made up by Barry Storm in 1939. Before that there was no history of a "Peralta massacre" or Peralta mines in the Superstitions.

Marshall Trimble, the Arizona State historian had this to say about the Peralta legend in the Superstitions and the Peralta "massacre":

There was no substantiated evidence of a massacre grounds and there was no massacre of a Peralta family.
Peralta is a common name in Mexican culture, much like Smith and Jones in American. There actually was a Miguel Peralta who came to Arizona in the 1860s gold rush. Peralta had gold claims in the vicinity of today’s Rock Springs, along Interstate 17. Mostly due to Indian attacks, Peralta quit the mining business and went back to being a prosperous merchant in Wickenburg. So there was a Peralta mine, but it was located a long way from the Superstitions.

Believe what you wish. Chase these false tales as far as you are willing. Without verifiable facts you will be chasing your tail (tale?) until the end of your days with no result. If you really believe there is a Waltz gold mine in the Superstitions you will need to rely on facts to find it. These bogus stories are only going to waste your time and send you on a snipe hunt.

Maybe in the future, to avoid misleading others and for clarity, you could write more accurately - something like "I believe the Superstition Mountains were the location of much Spanish mining activity over the years." A lot of people come here to research the LDM, you can help them to avoid being sidetracked with very little effort.

You continue to perpetuate this myth. There is no (zero) evidence the Spanish ever mined in the Superstitions. You have presented none and no man has ever found evidence of Spanish mining in the Superstitions.

Here is the history of Spanish mining in the Southwest from the National Park Service:

We have no real evidence of mining in this region during the Spanish Mission Period; the story on this frontier, in the 18th century and first two decades of the 19th, is rather that of the occasional prospector and explorer, who knew that the only sure way to capture attention and support for his particular project was to report every possibility of mineral wealth to the King of Spain, whose treasury was never sufficient for Spain's world-wide commitments. South of the Spanish outposts along the Santa Cruz Valley, a few adventurous men did a little prospecting and worked a vein of silver or washed gold for a short time, until the vein or pocket pinched out, or the Apaches drove them away. Even the fabulously rich find of the 'Planchas de Plata,' 30 miles south of Tumacacori, where large pieces of silver were picked up on the surface, was not developed into a mine; the 'mother lode' was never found. The only known operating mine in the whole of Arizona and New Mexico during Spanish times was the copper mine at Santa Rita, New Mexico, developed after 1800.

There is no (zero) evidence of a Peralta mine in the Superstitions. The legend of there being a Don Miguel Peralta involved anywhere in the Superstitions of Arizona was made up by Barry Storm in 1939. Before that there was no history of a "Peralta massacre" or Peralta mines in the Superstitions.

Marshall Trimble, the Arizona State historian had this to say about the Peralta legend in the Superstitions and the Peralta "massacre":

There was no substantiated evidence of a massacre grounds and there was no massacre of a Peralta family.
Peralta is a common name in Mexican culture, much like Smith and Jones in American. There actually was a Miguel Peralta who came to Arizona in the 1860s gold rush. Peralta had gold claims in the vicinity of today’s Rock Springs, along Interstate 17. Mostly due to Indian attacks, Peralta quit the mining business and went back to being a prosperous merchant in Wickenburg. So there was a Peralta mine, but it was located a long way from the Superstitions.

Believe what you wish. Chase these false tales as far as you are willing. Without verifiable facts you will be chasing your tail (tale?) until the end of your days with no result. If you really believe there is a Waltz gold mine in the Superstitions you will need to rely on facts to find it. These bogus stories are only going to waste your time and send you on a snipe hunt.

Maybe in the future, to avoid misleading others and for clarity, you could write more accurately - something like "I believe the Superstition Mountains were the location of much Spanish mining activity over the years." A lot of people come here to research the LDM, you can help them to avoid being sidetracked with very little effort.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Ah yes - the Valencianna forgery. That's already been debunked.

Peralta letters

www.treasurenet.com

It's a fake, a forgery, and even if it wasn't it doesn't establish the presence of Spanish mining North of Tucson.

 

[jeffhowlett]

Ah yes - the Valencianna forgery. That's already been debunked.

Peralta letters

www.treasurenet.com

It's a fake, a forgery, and even if it wasn't it doesn't establish the presence of Spanish mining North of Tucson.

Geeez - The Park Service and the State Of Arizona have signs, parking, and trails leading to the massacre grounds.
That must mean the Park Service are incompetent historians,s since you say there was never a massacre, or per your own reasoning, the shoulder you say IMO it did not occur, and Ido not believe there is proof. On the other hand, your park service posting is correct; in that case, they are correct on no Spanish mining. There is a load of documentation on Spanish mining acting on the ground and historical papers. I am curious who with the Park Service wrote that and when was the date it was written. There are all kinds of evidence of early Spanish mining on the ground. Some people think when the LDM is found there will be a sign "" Welcome to the Lost Dutchman Gold mine " Geez, no Spanish mining in the Supers. In 2015 I sat and talked to Salvador Deaglio, about early Spanish mining activities he had personally found and explored. Salvidor first had knowledge, he is an honest man to a fault, and that he is not a liar. The Park Service has an agenda to keep people out of the Park's interior. Rick Gween told me he found an old Spanish stash in a cave and turned it over to the Park, they yellow tapes it off and said the old bones could have been a recent murder. He went there the day all the valuable items were gone. The Park Service had no comment.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Geeez - The Park Service and the State Of Arizona have signs, parking, and trails leading to the massacre grounds.
That must mean the Park Service are incompetent historians,s since you say there was never a massacre, or per your own reasoning, the shoulder you say IMO it did not occur, and Ido not believe there is proof. On the other hand, your park service posting is correct; in that case, they are correct on no Spanish mining. There is a load of documentation on Spanish mining acting on the ground and historical papers. I am curious who with the Park Service wrote that and when was the date it was written. There are all kinds of evidence of early Spanish mining on the ground. Some people think when the LDM is found there will be a sign "" Welcome to the Lost Dutchman Gold mine " Geez, no Spanish mining in the Supers. In 2015 I sat and talked to Salvador Deaglio, about early Spanish mining activities he had personally found and explored. Salvidor first had knowledge, he is an honest man to a fault, and that he is not a liar. The Park Service has an agenda to keep people out of the Park's interior. Rick Gween told me he found an old Spanish stash in a cave and turned it over to the Park, they yellow tapes it off and said the old bones could have been a recent murder. He went there the day all the valuable items were gone. The Park Service had no comment.

I'm confused - who are the "Park Service"?

 

[markmar]

I'm confused - who are the "Park Service"?

National Park Service? Suddenly you can't recognize the term?

 

[Clay Diggins]

There are three National Parks in Arizona Saguaro, Petrified Forest, and Grand Canyon. None are anywhere near the Superstitions.

Have either of you even been to Arizona?

 

[deducer]

There are three National Parks in Arizona Saguaro, Petrified Forest, and Grand Canyon. None are anywhere near the Superstitions.

Have either of you even been to Arizona?

The USFS run the Tonto National Forest.

And before you get into the "differences" between the NPS and USFS, both use rangers for their purposes, but under difference departments (Dept of Interior vs. Dept. of Agriculture).

And the USFS does have "Massacre Grounds" marked on their maps.

 

[markmar]

There are three National Parks in Arizona Saguaro, Petrified Forest, and Grand Canyon. None are anywhere near the Superstitions.

Have either of you even been to Arizona?

You become very strict when someone else posts something incomplete in regards to a national office, but for yourself seems doesn't matter if is incomplete.

In your post #52, you wrote: " Here is the history of Spanish mining in the Southwest from the National Park Service: "...

What National Park Service were you referring to? Just to put things in the right order.

 

[Clay Diggins]

The USFS run the Tonto National Forest.

And before you get into the "differences" between the NPS and USFS, both use rangers for their purposes, but under difference departments (Dept of Interior vs. Dept. of Agriculture).

And the USFS does have "Massacre Grounds" marked on their maps.

View attachment 2080428

Yep the Forest Service show the old Massacre Falls trail that was renamed to Massacre Grounds trail when it was reconstructed.

The also show Jacob's Crosscut trail and the Treasure loop trail.

So does that prove that Jacob Waltz blazed the crosscut trail? Does that prove the treasure is to be found on the Treasure loop trail?

So exactly where are the massacre grounds? On the way to massacre falls? Can you point out where the Peralta's, Mexicans, miners or Spanish were killed by the Apaches or Waltz (depending on which version of the fable you are believing)?

All of this is tourist fluff. The fact is to this point in time no one has provided proof the Spanish ever mined in the Superstitions. Until someone ponies up with some proof beyond the many dime novel stories being passed around there is no evidence of Spanish mining activity north of Tucson in Arizona.

 

[Clay Diggins]

You become very strict when someone else posts something incomplete in regards to a national office, but for yourself seems doesn't matter if is incomplete.

In your post #52, you wrote: " Here is the history of Spanish mining in the Southwest from the National Park Service: "...

What National Park Service were you referring to? Just to put things in the right order.

There is only one National Park Service Markmar. With all your research you should know that.

The National Park Service does not administer, name trails, or control any of the acts of the United States Forest Service in the Superstition Wilderness. Neither does the State of Arizona.

I was responding to Jeffhowlett's claim that the "Park Service" and the State of Arizona did create and control those trails as well as hiding discoveries and historical artifacts. He's wrong, if that upsets or challenges you you probably need to talk to Jeffhowlett about your concerns.

So maybe you and deducer can now answer my question.

Have either of you even been to Arizona?