The Strange World of LRLs

[EE THr]

It seems that forces which appear to be "invisible" to many people, such as gravity, magnetism, electromagnetic radiation, and electricity, are thought to be mysterious, and thus "up for grabs" as phony reasons why fakery "works."

The problems faced by frauds, who try to use these unseen forces to support their fantasies, is that there are too many people around who work with these very forces, and are familiar with how they can be predicted to function in various circumstances and used resourcefully. These people who routinely work with, and design real equipment based upon, these forces, also know what will not work concerning them. The also know how to test hypotheses, in ways which are not ambiguous, and how to set up repeatable experiments. They know the difference between "working reliably," and mere random results.

It is these people who the LRL promoters detest, because every time they think up some new angle for their scam, common sense professionals will always know how to disprove their BS. This pattern can easily be seen being repeated, over and over, in this section.

Trying to prove that fiction is fact will always be impossible. And I'm not talking about Science Fiction which later becomes a reality, like rockets or submarines.

I'm talking about devices which are currently total hoaxes, yet are argued to be real. The point being that not a single LRL on the market has been proven to the World to actually work at all. But rather, the fraudsters continually attempt to substitute argument for proof! That may be the way that Politics works, but not Science. So they continually attack Science as well!

They even go so far as to say that proof is not necessary! And that's when they go over the edge, and into the dark abyss of insanity. That's when they start trying to substitute anger for proof. And that's when they start trying to turn the attack toward people, rather than attempting to support their position with facts (because there are no facts which will support fiction as reality).


There might actually be a way of detecting specific materials at very long distances, but that technology is not currently on the market. Sorry.

ref: A Dozen Points Proving LRL Fraud These points have never been rationally refuted.

 

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[woof!]

To put a slightly different spin on it......

In the strange world of LRL's, we notice some interesting stuff.

1. The de facto definition of "LRL" is a swingy thingy to which some purported electronic stuff has been added, and the swingy thingy is a dowsing rod.

2. Although "LRL" stands for "long range locator", apparatus which actually does that (for example radar) is never referred to in that manner. In plain English, if the apparatus actually does long range locating (as opposed to a metal detector which is strictly short range), it is neither called an "LRL" nor is it marketed as though it were.

3. The reason why the real can't be confused with the ersatz is because the manufacturers know what they're selling, and how their respective two markets are different.

4. The situation is a little different in the security market, where the buyers are often not very bright, and don't have enough prior exposure to this type of fraud to understand what it is they're dealing with. Again, the manufacturers know what they're selling, and to whom: the advertising for the Gravitator is of a completely different character from the DKL, and the manufacturer pretends that nobody even knows that both markets exist for the product.

5. In order to "work", the thing has to do what dowsing rods do, that's why unlike any other kind of locating apparatus, LRL's are equipped with dowsing rods. It's the dead giveway.

6. And, to be an "LRL", it needs bogus electronics (or at least a claim of such). Sometimes the electronics actually do some stuff that has nothing to do with actual locating of unknown objects, sometimes there is completely nonfunctional stuff, and sometimes there is no actual electronic stuff, even that part is imaginary. The LRL industry itself makes no distinction between these approaches other than that the phrase "molecular frequency discrimination" is not normally used in connection with electronics that are completely nonfunctional or strictly imaginary.

7. One of the remarkable things about the LRL industry is that none of the manufacturers is willing to call any of the others outright frauds and crooks. In most industries where there is a mix of real stuff and of frauds, the manufacturers of the real stuff regard the fraudsters as enemies and not afraid to call them fraudsters. It's only "honor among thieves" that keeps the LRL so strangely lacking in the kind of competition that invites comparison shopping.

8. If an LRL "points to stuff", it "works". Of course it does this only when held in the hands of the operator, a robotic demo never works because it's actually human hands that aim the LRL under ideomotor rather than conscious control. This is all any swivelly LRL ever does, and all it has to do to produce reports that it "found" this or that, or "followed a signal line". The bogus electronic stuff is lipstick on a pig, pure and simple. If you refuse to kiss pigs that aren't wearing lipstick, and have a good pitch how they're sexier than your run-of-the-mill pigsnout, then the question is how much are you willing to pay to pretend you're not dowsing? Lucky for you, no matter what your answer to that question is, there's a product in your price range. Some of 'em are knee-slapping hilarious.

* * * * *

And that's the smoke-and-mirrors world of how fraudulent electronics are applied to dowsing rods. Too bad: dowsing deserved to be taken more seriously.

--Toto

 

[signal_line]

I usually don't read either of your unintelligent posts, but I did skim through this thread.

Neither of you seem to be able to comprehend or even conceive of the fact that people use LRL's every day. I just love the MFD systems. I would have given up treasure hunting years ago if not for them. Also like every skeptic you ignore what has been stated over and over for years on the forums that THE ORIGINAL MFD EQUIPMENT DID NOT USE L-RODS--THEY USED AN ELECTRONIC RECEIVER FOR SEVERAL YEARS BEFORE L-RODS WERE ADAPTED. Vernell Electronics has a website and they sell an MFD with the electronic receiver for about the same price as an expensive locator rod. And there is a huge difference in the accuracy of an MFD system compared to dowsing. Now mind you some MFD systems do not have any weight cancelling and these are not going to be as accurate. And there are other factors that many manufacturers do not seem to understand.

On average I find gold in about one in five hotspots. That doesn't mean the gold is not there in the other four, just that I don't want to tear up the area to find it. I have been able to trace the signal line from a high powered MFD without rods, just holding my arms out to my sides.

I can only assume that every skeptic out there is a failed dowser. Then they use inductive reasoning (false logic) to claim that all MFD's are dowsing and therefore no one can use them. This is so absurd I can only conclude it is intentional deception by people in the metal detector industry to try to sway people from buying. I guess times are tough with this economy and things are not looking bright with all the new laws against metal detecting. This must be their last gasp to grab money. My average take metal detecting is about one dollar per hour. Unless you have virgin ground to metal detect I think a person can make more money by picking aluminum cans from the dumpsters.

All skeptics seem to have "L-rod phobia". Of course most people know that phobias are irrational fears. So yes, skeptics are irrational, too. And they do not even understand how an L-rod is used. If it "swings around" that means the person has not learned how to use them. Some L-rods do not swivel anyway.

 

[woof!]

Just checked out the Vernell website, Signal. It's a good example of what I explained. Your own post is also a good example of what both EE and myself explained.

--Toto

 

[aarthrj3811]

The Strange World of LRLs
What is strange about LRL’s is how the skeptics do not know the first thing about how the product works...

http://www.vernellelectronics.com/
http://www.vernellelectronics.com/about.htm
Vernell™ Electronics was founded in 1977 by V. R. Rose in Sarasota, Florida. He has more than fifty years experience in the field of electronics and electronic research. His career in electronics began in the U. S. Air Force where he was a radio-radar engineer. He entered the rapidly developing field of television technology upon graduation from the RCA School for Electronic Engineering as a Licensed Electronics Engineer.

 

[EE THr]

Vernell Electronics has a website and they sell an MFD with the electronic receiver for about the same price as an expensive locator rod.

The "VR Series" states that it "...includes...free-rotating extendable antenna rods...." The chart claims that they can detect diamonds, which is typical nonsense of the LRL genre.

The "Forward Gauss" series also states "...receiving rods...." The term "Gauss" is a unit of measurement of magnetic induction. If this thing detects magnetic fields---so what? That's nothing new. The problem is that the advertising for this model doesn't say what it is supposed to detect, except that in one version of it's name it is called a Metal Detector. There is no mention of what kind of metal, but with the term Gauss in it's name, it might be assumed that, at best, it is supposed to indicate possible ferrous metals which may be associated with magnetic fields. This can be done with several other types of real equipment, which do specifically state their actual purpose and sensitivity.

As with all the other LRL (including MFDs and whatever other silly names they come up with) ads, unlike real Scientific equipment, there is never any actual detection levels specified, such as Gauss sensitivity or anything else.

And as usual, nobody is offering any verifiable information that these things actually work.

So if their literature sounds Strange, it's because it falls under the blanket category of "LRL."

 

[EE THr]

I would add that it's a standard ploy of LRL promoters, when cornered by their own illogic and self-contradictions, to come up with silliness of "Well, but-but-but, there's ooooooone LRL that's a little different than all the rest---therefore all LRLs work!"

Huh?

And, once in awhile one of they will try to take the heat off themselves by saying, "OK there are some LRLs that are fraudulent---but not all of them!" The trouble is that these guys will never respond with a list of those which are fake.

In short, they will try anything to get out of it, when they are caught. But none of it ever works, because it never passes the common sense test, much less a random double-blind test!

But talk they will. And talk, and talk, and talk. All of it pure jibberish!

 

[aarthrj3811]

~EE~

The "VR Series" states that it "...includes...free-rotating extendable antenna rods...." The chart claims that they can detect diamonds, which is typical nonsense of the LRL genre.

The "Forward Gauss" series also states "...receiving rods...." The term "Gauss" is a unit of measurement of magnetic induction. If this thing detects magnetic fields---so what? That's nothing new. The problem is that the advertising for this model doesn't say what it is supposed to detect, except that in one version of it's name it is called a Metal Detector. There is no mention of what kind of metal, but with the term Gauss in it's name, it might be assumed that, at best, it is supposed to indicate possible ferrous metals which may be associated with magnetic fields. This can be done with several other types of real equipment, which do specifically state their actual purpose and sensitivity.

As with all the other LRL (including MFDs and whatever other silly names they come up with) ads, unlike real Scientific equipment, there is never any actual detection levels specified, such as Gauss sensitivity or anything else.

And as usual, nobody is offering any verifiable information that these things actually work.

So if their literature sounds Strange, it's because it falls under the blanket category of "LRL."

Thank you EE...
~Art~

The Strange World of LRLs
What is strange about LRL’s is how the skeptics do not know the first thing about how the product works...

http://www.vernellelectronics.com/
http://www.vernellelectronics.com/about.htm
Vernell™ Electronics was founded in 1977 by V. R. Rose in Sarasota, Florida. He has more than fifty years experience in the field of electronics and electronic research. His career in electronics began in the U. S. Air Force where he was a radio-radar engineer. He entered the rapidly developing field of television technology upon graduation from the RCA School for Electronic Engineering as a Licensed Electronics Engineer.

 

[EE THr]

What is strange about LRL’s is how the skeptics do not know the first thing about how the product works...

http://www.vernellelectronics.com/
http://www.vernellelectronics.com/about.htm
Vernell™ Electronics was founded in 1977 by V. R. Rose in Sarasota, Florida. He has more than fifty years experience in the field of electronics and electronic research. His career in electronics began in the U. S. Air Force where he was a radio-radar engineer. He entered the rapidly developing field of television technology upon graduation from the RCA School for Electronic Engineering as a Licensed Electronics Engineer.

How does any of that prove that the device can actually find treasure?

 

[aarthrj3811]

~EE~

How does any of that prove that the device can actually find treasure?

I have never used a Vernell product so I don’t know how good they are. Just like ever other product I recommend that those people who want to know arrange for a hands on demonstration of the product that they think will fit their treasure hunting needs. Try it and see for themselves if they would be happy with it...Would that be a better way for them to decide how to spend their money instead of taking the word of a skeptic...Art

 

[signal_line]

I'm certainly not claiming the electronic receiver MFD system is perfect. It is subject to the same interference as any MFD. That's how they found out about how solar magnetic storms will fade or completely block the signal line--before L-rods were ever used. The electronic system is slower to work with, and in my opinion it does not pinpoint as well as L-rods. But you can use L-rods with it or even just hold out your arms if you are sensitive enough--if you know what to look for, what to be aware of. Obviously you can practice (at least at first) with a visible target. Of course L-rods are much more sensitive than anything electronic. I realize you electronics buffs cannot conceive this is possible.

 

[aarthrj3811]

~signal_line~

I'm certainly not claiming the electronic receiver MFD system is perfect. It is subject to the same interference as any MFD. That's how they found out about how solar magnetic storms will fade or completely block the signal line--before L-rods were ever used. The electronic system is slower to work with, and in my opinion it does not pinpoint as well as L-rods. But you can use L-rods with it or even just hold out your arms if you are sensitive enough--if you know what to look for, what to be aware of. Obviously you can practice (at least at first) with a visible target. Of course L-rods are much more sensitive than anything electronic. I realize you electronics buffs cannot conceive this is possible.

That’s very good..Yes some of the swivel handle devices can be used with rods..I have used the Ranger tell by setting it on the handle..The only problem was that I could not use some of its functions...Art

 

[woof!]

I'm certainly not claiming the electronic receiver MFD system is perfect. It is subject to the same interference as any MFD. That's how they found out about how solar magnetic storms will fade or completely block the signal line--before L-rods were ever used. The electronic system is slower to work with, and in my opinion it does not pinpoint as well as L-rods. But you can use L-rods with it or even just hold out your arms if you are sensitive enough--if you know what to look for, what to be aware of. Obviously you can practice (at least at first) with a visible target. Of course L-rods are much more sensitive than anything electronic. I realize you electronics buffs cannot conceive this is possible.

Signal, I think you'll find that us electronic buffs regard it as quite probable (!) that a fraudulent electronic device without dowsing rods, is going to be inferior to a bent coat hanger at dowsing.

Your posts (and Vernell's website) are excellent examples of what EE and myself have said. (Vernell obviously knows what he's selling and who the intended customer is, "read the advertisement"!)

That having been said, if anyone who reads this forum, after having been told what LRL's are still wants to buy one, I say "buy the most expensive one you can afford, just spend your own money and not someone else's." I'm good for your business (or maybe Dell's?)! But probably not for Vernell, you knocked his stuff since evidently doesn't post here like Dell does.

--Toto

 

[aarthrj3811]

~woof!~

Signal, I think you'll find that us electronic buffs regard it as quite probable (!) that a fraudulent electronic device without dowsing rods, is going to be inferior to a bent coat hanger at dowsing

I would guess as a electronic buff you have not tested electronic device without rods and the coat hangers used by Dowsers...You should known that coat hanger dowsing rod are poor but work.. Some of the electronic device without rods will allow you to do much more..Like set the depth and distance of your search..Most will tell you the weight of the target...Some will tell you if the target is a coin, bar or a ring...Much more information than a set of dowsing rod will tell you...

Your posts (and Vernell's website) are excellent examples of what EE and myself have said. (Vernell obviously knows what he's selling and who the intended customer is, "read the advertisement"!)

All that from reading a advertisement

That having been said, if anyone who reads this forum, after having been told what LRL's are still wants to buy one, I say "buy the most expensive one you can afford, just spend your own money and not someone else's." I'm good for your business (or maybe Dell's?)! But probably not for Vernell, you knocked his stuff since evidently doesn't post here like Dell does.

I agree if the person has become an informed consumer..Art

 

[woof!]

I would guess as a electronic buff you have not tested electronic device without rods and the coat hangers used by Dowsers...You should known that coat hanger dowsing rod are poor but work.. Some of the electronic device without rods will allow you to do much more..Like set the depth and distance of your search..Most will tell you the weight of the target...Some will tell you if the target is a coin, bar or a ring...Much more information than a set of dowsing rod will tell you... ..Art

Art, I'm not aware of any electronic devices of the sort marketed to dowsers, that "tell you the weight of the target" and "if the target is a coin, bar or a ring". (I'm not referring to metal detectors, which are strictly short range devices and have nothing to do with so-called MFD or "signal lines".) Got a link to a manufacturer's or vendor's website?

--Toto

 

[aarthrj3811]

~woof~

Art, I'm not aware of any electronic devices of the sort marketed to dowsers, that "tell you the weight of the target" and "if the target is a coin, bar or a ring". (I'm not referring to metal detectors, which are strictly short range devices and have nothing to do with so-called MFD or "signal lines".) Got a link to a manufacturer's or vendor's website?

~Art~

Some of the electronic device without rods will allow you to do much more..Like set the depth and distance of your search..Most will tell you the weight of the target...Some will tell you if the target is a coin, bar or a ring...Much more information than a set of dowsing rod will tell you...

You are correct.. I'm not aware of any electronic devices of the sort marketed to dowsers, that "tell you the weight of the target" and "if the target is a coin, bar or a ring"..You are also correct about metal detectors, which are strictly short range devices and have nothing to do with so-called MFD or "signal lines".)

Got a link to a manufacturer's or vendor's website?

For Dowsing you can check this web site.. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?board=200.0
For short range metal detectors you can check the manufacturer’s Web sites.
For Long Range Metal detections you can check the manufacturer’s Web site or http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?board=950.0

 

[Carl-NC]

"He entered the rapidly developing field of television technology upon graduation from the RCA School for Electronic Engineering as a Licensed Electronics Engineer."

Art, being the True Believer you are, you probably believe that Mr. Rose really graduated from the "RCA School for Electronic Engineering," that Mr. Rose is really a "Licensed Electronics Engineer," and that the "RCA School for Electronic Engineering" really existed. And, I suspect, you'll swallow the whole story regardless of what the facts are, because it's what you want to believe. Perhaps Mr. Rose is one of those "Electrical Engineers" Dell keeps referring to, that is, if Dell swallowed the whole story sinker-deep, too.

I do, however, strongly suspect the part where Mr. Rose "entered the rapidly developing field of television technology" is true.

 

[woof!]

Some of the electronic device without rods will allow you to do much more..Like set the depth and distance of your search..Most will tell you the weight of the target...Some will tell you if the target is a coin, bar or a ring...Much more information than a set of dowsing rod will tell you...

You are correct.. I'm not aware of any electronic devices of the sort marketed to dowsers, that "tell you the weight of the target" and "if the target is a coin, bar or a ring"..

I sure didn't see that one coming! Folks, there you have it straight from Art himself, fast and direct...... but when you have it, what have you got?

Signal, will you please step in and rescue the poor guy from his own posts?

--Toto

 

[aarthrj3811]

~Carl~

Art, being the True Believer you are, you probably believe that Mr. Rose really graduated from the "RCA School for Electronic Engineering," that Mr. Rose is really a "Licensed Electronics Engineer," and that the "RCA School for Electronic Engineering" really existed. And, I suspect, you'll swallow the whole story regardless of what the facts are, because it's what you want to believe. Perhaps Mr. Rose is one of those "Electrical Engineers" Dell keeps referring to, that is, if Dell swallowed the whole story sinker-deep, too.

Gee Carl..We know that you work for White’s..so we have to assume that you are an "Electrical Engineers" even though your web site does not prove that. The rest of the Clown skeptics that have been assigned to this web site it is a mystery ..Are they "Electrical Engineers"?.. Who knows...Art

 

[aarthrj3811]

~woof~

I sure didn't see that one coming! Folks, there you have it straight from Art himself, fast and direct...... but when you have it, what have you got?

Signal, will you please step in and rescue the poor guy from his own posts?

~Art~

Some of the electronic device without rods will allow you to do much more..Like set the depth and distance of your search..Most will tell you the weight of the target...Some will tell you if the target is a coin, bar or a ring...Much more information than a set of dowsing rod will tell you...

You are correct.. I'm not aware of any electronic devices of the sort marketed to dowsers, that "tell you the weight of the target" and "if the target is a coin, bar or a ring"..

What’s wrong “woof”..Are you having a little trouble trying to explain your fake facts with an old man who is a successful Dowser and a successful user of LRL’s?..