Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
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Tropical Tramp
Tropical Tramp
The Treasures of Tayopa
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the blindbowman
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- Nov 21, 2006
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ok i under stand youn are thinking this guys is crazyer than bed bug ! LOL ok how about a taste of the batter , can t make a cake with out tasteing the batter first... how about the oak island . look at the design . if they had dug down a little bigger than they had in fact the size of each stone level they would have got more than they hope for . a 3 gun sielute ...the water pressure would have pushed all three rooms to the top of the shaft . but they did not dig the shaft the true size and the first shell was stuck and thaan they drilled threw the top of the room leting it fill with water and the next morning the shaft was half full ... . why build a cover dam at all .. this is why ...so now you know how it was designed and what is down there and why ...
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the blindbowman
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- Nov 21, 2006
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now i know just what your thinking , how can we get the other two shots out or remove the bad shot . you cant remove the bad shot ,but you could make a new shaft . first close off the cover dam tunnle and than make your secound shaft just behind the 3 shot and than let the water from the first shaft push the other 2 shot to the top of the new shaft .much like makeing the gun fire backward threw the breach ...or a back fire ... than send down divers to reclam the first shot a little at a time , after you have the wealth of the 2 and 3 shots, getting the 1st shot is like takeing a miss fire out of a gun . slow and careful ..good luck !
the blindbowman
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- Nov 21, 2006
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why 3 shots . one shot for shipmates . 3 shots for a captain . your looking at a captains treasure trove ,this is not just any one old ship captain. one that was very smart and had a good wisdom of boynce and had to have oak timbers & raw pitch and a vast treasure maybe even a kings treasure .. your looking at one of the best captains . maybe Black Bread's , a rough man but a sea captain & very wise...
Oroblanco
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- Jan 21, 2005
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Greetings Blindbowman and everyone,
First, thank you for explaining your reasoning. However I cannot agree with your conclusions. Let me try to explain, bear with me folks this will be another Oroblanco 'book' this time....
A first note is there seems to be some mixing and/or confabulating of myths, legends and history. Father Kino did not discover Tayopa, it was discovered in the late 1500s well before Kino was born and not in the area where Kino worked. The Tayopa mines were in "bonanza" production in 1632 but shut down by the time of the Indian uprising of 1646. (As was Vainopa, if memory serves) Kino was BORN in 1644! The recorded silver and gold output of Tayopa (group) was large, the recorded output of the Lost Dutchman mine was relatively small by comparison (around 15,000 ounces total) the recorded output of lost Peralta mines - zero. My friends Gollum and others here choose to accept the tales of the lost, incredibly rich Peralta mines in the Superstitions, however I do not believe they exist as they are un-substantiated. The Lost Dutchman mine does, however there is reason to believe that Waltz simply prospected and found the ledge himself, without having to resort to Mexican Dons or Jesuit maps etc when there is no record of any Jesuits in the Superstitions either. (Read the old "Pioneer interviews" done by WPA workers in the Depression years in Arizona, the folks who lived in Florence have a very different and far less 'exciting' version of Jacob Waltz and his lost mine.)
if kino made the maps for the spainish and the chruch
Father Kino did in fact make maps of northern Sonora/Pimeria Alta, however I fail to find any indication on his maps of the location of Tayopa. Actually I think you can find his map on line somewhere, can't recall at the moment but I think U of Texas?
kino says he found 7 or 8 more house as large as a 4 story building.now are we to beleave that kino and the spainard moved in to this area with out converting the house in the cave to a chruch ..
Hmm well most historians conclude that the ruins and four story "house" found by explorer Kino were in fact the ancient Anasazi ruins at Casa Grande, which you can visit today - it is still impressive. No four story houses exist in the Superstitions, I feel fairly confident in saying that! So there would NOT be any converting of a four-story house in a cave into a church. In fact the Jesuits (as well as the Franciscans) usually built new buildings for churches, in every settlement and town, even small ones by mining camps known as "visitas" as they were only used by the padres very much like the way circuit judges travel from court to court today. When new churches were built on old sites, they built right on top of old ruins, not convert old buildings.
no one found the mine in the sierra madre did they ?
Well, you might want to talk to one of our members here, friend Real de Tayopa (hint!).
240 pack mules of gold and chruch treasure troves in the dutchman tunnle are not the jesuit treasure troves in the tayopa tunnle
That would be quite correct, because no one has reported any 240 pack mules of gold and church treasure in the Dutchman "tunnel" - in fact the Dutchman's mine is not even a tunnel but a shaft. Does it make logical sense to you, for the Jesuits to haul such a massive treasure several hundred miles NORTH from Tayopa to hide them in what is quite possibly the most dangerous, unexplored area on their frontier, with prowling Apaches waiting there to skin Mexicans alive and stake them down on ant hills? Why would they, when they could have hidden such a massive load right in the mine workings of Tayopa? Are you sure there was a report of 240 pack mule loads in the Dutchman's tunnel, and this is not the same story as the Virgin de Guadeloupe mine near Tumacacori, or possibly the thirty tons of ore stacked in the Purisma Concepcion mine, also associated with Tumacacori? I realize that many lost mines and lost treasure stories seem to have similarities, which can lead one to conclude they are talking about one and the same, but there are far more differences, many of which are clear and important. For example, there is quite a lot of confusion about the actual ore of the Lost Dutchman mine! The actual ore found under the Dutchman's bed was gold in white quartz, but another ledge in the Superstitions is gold in ROSE quartz (found and mined by a man named Wagoner, in the same general area but quite different both in appearance and richness) and there is mysterious ore brought out of the Superstitions that was black, with the appearance of "stars" (shiny specks of rather white gold) that also came from the same GENERAL area, but they are clearly NOT from the same mine! This confusion has led to many wasted hours and days of effort by treasure hunters, and it gets worse!
To give you an example, a Mexican woman who claimed to have been at the Dutchman mine with her Mexican husband, remembered they ran the ore through a sieve, then "winnowed" it in a basket, letting the wind carry away the lighter dirt. Is this important, and does it prove that she was at the Dutchman's mine, as well as lending credence to the Peralta legends? It is important, because the method of mining she is describing is a very old method of mining dry placer gravels - for the reader who is unaware of the difference here, placer gold is gold that is loose, having been eroded out of the host rock by nature; the methods of mining it are quite different from those used to mine lode gold (gold still in the host matrix rock, generally quartz) which is the type of ore brought out and sold by Jacob Waltz! So this Mexican woman's report may lend credence to Mexican placer mining in the area, but does not help the case of the Peralta legends and almost certainly doesn't prove she was at the Dutchman's mine.
ask your self this if the mules were over loaded and some of the maps fell out of the packs they would have come from the tunnle at the LDM and where was those other stone maps found i ask you ! you get the idea by now i hope .
There is no reason to suppose there would be a huge pack train of over-loaded mules coming out of the Superstitions - if there truly were gold mining going on there on the scale that many folks seem to believe, there would not be any LOST mines today, they would have been found because the disturbance of such a mass of workers and animals would have been impossible to miss. The Dutchman (Waltz) never made any maps to his mine, not in his lifetime - Julia Thomas made up maps and sold them, and there have been at least sixty maps to the mine out in circulation today - however none are correct for they have not led anyone to the lost mine. There is no reason to believe that Adolph Ruth found the mine, other than his last curious message in his journal (Veni, Vedi...but no Vici!) which does not exactly prove he found the mine. As for the Peralta stone maps, I am convinced they are frauds, and not older than the 1930s; created for the purpose of fooling treasure hunters and attracting visitors to the area, in which they are highly successful.
aand look at the mule shoe found by Clay worst ... it showed wear from long distances and was not locate at all . in good chance it was in fact mexican or spainish . it is just dum to think that out of a hand full of mule bones found in the back of a cave that just the only shoe found was from the dutchmans mule ,that is so far of a reach i would need a lot of drinking first to beleave that one ,,.
Yes the mysterious mule shoe found by Clay Worst. Why should we assume it is Mexican or Spanish? Could it not have come from an American mule, or even one captured by Apaches from some distance away? Apaches would take mules some distance from where they were captured before sitting down to eat them. How much do we wish to hang on a mule shoe? Unless the shoe had some way of being identified as Spanish or Mexican or with Waltz's initials on them, it is circumstantial evidence, the mule shoe could have been lost by any old mule traveling through that rocky country that was luckless enough to be captured by Apaches. Don't we have the report of Jacob Waltz that the Apaches got his mules on once occasion? Where do we suppose those mules ended up, but in the bellies of Apache braves? I would need a lot of drinking to make the leaps of logic to presume that the mule shoe and mule bones MUST be from the Peraltas or the Jesuits, much less that it is from a pack train full of gold from Tayopa....when it is just as easy to conclude this was likely the mule of Waltz or his partner Weiser. I have a bit of experience with mules and more experience with horses and how their shoes wear out, over rocky ground it is almost amazing how quickly they will wear down (one reason why most Indians removed all shoes from their horses) and they will wear down from short trips as well as long trips. The amount of wear on a single mule shoe just doesn't carry that much weight with me as evidence of Jesuits, Peraltas or anyone else for that matter. But that is just my view of this bit of evidence.
if the spanish took montezuma to the superstition that they took the treasures as well
Hmm well okay if the Spanish took emperor Montezuma (also spelled Moctezuma) to the Superstitions, they might as well have taken along the treasures as well - however there is no record of the Spanish taking Montezuma anywhere outside of the Aztec capital, and in fact Montezuma died there. The Spaniards then had to beat a hasty retreat suffering heavy losses, it took them months to build a fleet of boats and make another assault on the capital Tenochtitlan. What happened to the Aztec gold, which filled two rooms? No one knows today, however it seems doubtful that the Waltz mine was even a shaft at that time so certainly could not hold such a vast amount of gold. Remember that the total production from Waltz's mine is only a bit more than 1200 pounds, the ore itself being incredibly rich so he did not need to create a gigantic mine to extract a fortune in gold.
this makes me think they working this mine alot more than we think they did ... they were still working it when it was lost , so thats a good sign it is not played out ! it may be far bigger than anyone knows or was lead to beleave ...
Well you are sure welcome to hold your own opinion as to how large the mine workings must be in the Superstitions, however consider this - if it were in fact such a huge operation, why is it still lost? Does it not make more sense, logically, that it was in fact a VERY SMALL mine, one that a man working alone would be able to conceal in a matter of a day or two work? If it were HUGE, with all the thousands and thousands of prospectors and treasure hunters who have combed over those hills over the years since Waltz died (there was precious little prospecting done in the Superstitions prior to his day) and that NO ONE has managed to find it? I extremely doubt that there were any large mining operations anywhere in the Superstitions, though there were several SMALL ones. (NOT however eighteen, seven, eight or any other large number but a literal handful that could be counted on ONE hand.) When ore is extremely rich, a large operation is not necessary, and would invite attack by hostile Apaches or Yavapais, a small operation might be able to work and not be so likely to be caught by the Apaches - though Weiser was caught by them and suffered the consequences.
As for the bells ringing and dogs barking being heard miles away, hmm well that I cannot say for certain; however here in our area you can hear dogs barking several miles away on clear days and nights, and when we lived in PA we could hear church bells ringing in three towns from our home (on a mountaintop) that were three, five and seven miles away respectively as the crow flies. So I have reason to believe they could hear the bells ring and dogs bark, if conditions were right - however I don't believe they would hear bells ringing in the Superstitions in Nacori.
RP McMurphy wrote:
For instance, the ancient Greeks have a proven history in fossilized dinosaur bones (huge) discoverd on islands from which they created their Gods
Hello RP - have to disagree with you there, the dino bones found by the Greeks were not thought to be those of gods but of monsters; their "gods" can virtually all be traced back to Bronze age princes and princesses, ordinary human beings who were "deified" (granted the honors of a god) AFTER their deaths. In fact even the Greeks themselves found the 'antics' of their 'gods' to be a bit hard to believe as 'gods' - some even commented how ridiculous it seemed for their 'gods' to be cavorting about, raping, fighting, etc. The dino bones were perplexing to the Greeks, so they imagined them as 'monsters' with some not being SO far off from the truth (the Hippogriff for example was the bones of a Tricerotops-type animal, the shoulder bones being mistaken for wings). Such monster and giant bones were usually given to local temples where they were venerated, but not taken as being "gods".
Blindbowman wrote: how about the oak island
Again, I cannot agree that Oak Island has anything to do with Blackbeard, Captain Kidd or any other pirate including Captain Morgan himself. The amount of labor and engineering involved in creating this tremendous set of traps is beyond the abilities AND time available to pirates in my opinion. Not to insult the good old pirates, they were pretty good at their craft - but this Oak Island trap involved building a dam across the whole bay, draining out the sea water, etc this amount of effort took a great deal of time and manpower as well as skilled engineers. Skilled engineers and massive manpower equals some sort of government effort (as in a king or baron or earl) with plenty of men, money and those skilled engineers, as well as plenty of time with no worries about a Royal Navy frigate coming across them at work.
so now you know how it was designed and what is down there and why ...
Well I have an idea what might be buried under Oak Island, but doubt that it has anything to do with pirates, and the "why" is a very different reason!
No offense intended Blindbowman or anyone else, I think we can agree to disagree - heck you might be right and could prove me utterly wrong some day. If so I hope you won't rub it in TOO much!
I hope you all have a great day, and thank you for your patience for this very long post.
Oroblanco
First, thank you for explaining your reasoning. However I cannot agree with your conclusions. Let me try to explain, bear with me folks this will be another Oroblanco 'book' this time....
A first note is there seems to be some mixing and/or confabulating of myths, legends and history. Father Kino did not discover Tayopa, it was discovered in the late 1500s well before Kino was born and not in the area where Kino worked. The Tayopa mines were in "bonanza" production in 1632 but shut down by the time of the Indian uprising of 1646. (As was Vainopa, if memory serves) Kino was BORN in 1644! The recorded silver and gold output of Tayopa (group) was large, the recorded output of the Lost Dutchman mine was relatively small by comparison (around 15,000 ounces total) the recorded output of lost Peralta mines - zero. My friends Gollum and others here choose to accept the tales of the lost, incredibly rich Peralta mines in the Superstitions, however I do not believe they exist as they are un-substantiated. The Lost Dutchman mine does, however there is reason to believe that Waltz simply prospected and found the ledge himself, without having to resort to Mexican Dons or Jesuit maps etc when there is no record of any Jesuits in the Superstitions either. (Read the old "Pioneer interviews" done by WPA workers in the Depression years in Arizona, the folks who lived in Florence have a very different and far less 'exciting' version of Jacob Waltz and his lost mine.)
if kino made the maps for the spainish and the chruch
Father Kino did in fact make maps of northern Sonora/Pimeria Alta, however I fail to find any indication on his maps of the location of Tayopa. Actually I think you can find his map on line somewhere, can't recall at the moment but I think U of Texas?
kino says he found 7 or 8 more house as large as a 4 story building.now are we to beleave that kino and the spainard moved in to this area with out converting the house in the cave to a chruch ..
Hmm well most historians conclude that the ruins and four story "house" found by explorer Kino were in fact the ancient Anasazi ruins at Casa Grande, which you can visit today - it is still impressive. No four story houses exist in the Superstitions, I feel fairly confident in saying that! So there would NOT be any converting of a four-story house in a cave into a church. In fact the Jesuits (as well as the Franciscans) usually built new buildings for churches, in every settlement and town, even small ones by mining camps known as "visitas" as they were only used by the padres very much like the way circuit judges travel from court to court today. When new churches were built on old sites, they built right on top of old ruins, not convert old buildings.
no one found the mine in the sierra madre did they ?
Well, you might want to talk to one of our members here, friend Real de Tayopa (hint!).
240 pack mules of gold and chruch treasure troves in the dutchman tunnle are not the jesuit treasure troves in the tayopa tunnle
That would be quite correct, because no one has reported any 240 pack mules of gold and church treasure in the Dutchman "tunnel" - in fact the Dutchman's mine is not even a tunnel but a shaft. Does it make logical sense to you, for the Jesuits to haul such a massive treasure several hundred miles NORTH from Tayopa to hide them in what is quite possibly the most dangerous, unexplored area on their frontier, with prowling Apaches waiting there to skin Mexicans alive and stake them down on ant hills? Why would they, when they could have hidden such a massive load right in the mine workings of Tayopa? Are you sure there was a report of 240 pack mule loads in the Dutchman's tunnel, and this is not the same story as the Virgin de Guadeloupe mine near Tumacacori, or possibly the thirty tons of ore stacked in the Purisma Concepcion mine, also associated with Tumacacori? I realize that many lost mines and lost treasure stories seem to have similarities, which can lead one to conclude they are talking about one and the same, but there are far more differences, many of which are clear and important. For example, there is quite a lot of confusion about the actual ore of the Lost Dutchman mine! The actual ore found under the Dutchman's bed was gold in white quartz, but another ledge in the Superstitions is gold in ROSE quartz (found and mined by a man named Wagoner, in the same general area but quite different both in appearance and richness) and there is mysterious ore brought out of the Superstitions that was black, with the appearance of "stars" (shiny specks of rather white gold) that also came from the same GENERAL area, but they are clearly NOT from the same mine! This confusion has led to many wasted hours and days of effort by treasure hunters, and it gets worse!
To give you an example, a Mexican woman who claimed to have been at the Dutchman mine with her Mexican husband, remembered they ran the ore through a sieve, then "winnowed" it in a basket, letting the wind carry away the lighter dirt. Is this important, and does it prove that she was at the Dutchman's mine, as well as lending credence to the Peralta legends? It is important, because the method of mining she is describing is a very old method of mining dry placer gravels - for the reader who is unaware of the difference here, placer gold is gold that is loose, having been eroded out of the host rock by nature; the methods of mining it are quite different from those used to mine lode gold (gold still in the host matrix rock, generally quartz) which is the type of ore brought out and sold by Jacob Waltz! So this Mexican woman's report may lend credence to Mexican placer mining in the area, but does not help the case of the Peralta legends and almost certainly doesn't prove she was at the Dutchman's mine.
ask your self this if the mules were over loaded and some of the maps fell out of the packs they would have come from the tunnle at the LDM and where was those other stone maps found i ask you ! you get the idea by now i hope .
There is no reason to suppose there would be a huge pack train of over-loaded mules coming out of the Superstitions - if there truly were gold mining going on there on the scale that many folks seem to believe, there would not be any LOST mines today, they would have been found because the disturbance of such a mass of workers and animals would have been impossible to miss. The Dutchman (Waltz) never made any maps to his mine, not in his lifetime - Julia Thomas made up maps and sold them, and there have been at least sixty maps to the mine out in circulation today - however none are correct for they have not led anyone to the lost mine. There is no reason to believe that Adolph Ruth found the mine, other than his last curious message in his journal (Veni, Vedi...but no Vici!) which does not exactly prove he found the mine. As for the Peralta stone maps, I am convinced they are frauds, and not older than the 1930s; created for the purpose of fooling treasure hunters and attracting visitors to the area, in which they are highly successful.
aand look at the mule shoe found by Clay worst ... it showed wear from long distances and was not locate at all . in good chance it was in fact mexican or spainish . it is just dum to think that out of a hand full of mule bones found in the back of a cave that just the only shoe found was from the dutchmans mule ,that is so far of a reach i would need a lot of drinking first to beleave that one ,,.
Yes the mysterious mule shoe found by Clay Worst. Why should we assume it is Mexican or Spanish? Could it not have come from an American mule, or even one captured by Apaches from some distance away? Apaches would take mules some distance from where they were captured before sitting down to eat them. How much do we wish to hang on a mule shoe? Unless the shoe had some way of being identified as Spanish or Mexican or with Waltz's initials on them, it is circumstantial evidence, the mule shoe could have been lost by any old mule traveling through that rocky country that was luckless enough to be captured by Apaches. Don't we have the report of Jacob Waltz that the Apaches got his mules on once occasion? Where do we suppose those mules ended up, but in the bellies of Apache braves? I would need a lot of drinking to make the leaps of logic to presume that the mule shoe and mule bones MUST be from the Peraltas or the Jesuits, much less that it is from a pack train full of gold from Tayopa....when it is just as easy to conclude this was likely the mule of Waltz or his partner Weiser. I have a bit of experience with mules and more experience with horses and how their shoes wear out, over rocky ground it is almost amazing how quickly they will wear down (one reason why most Indians removed all shoes from their horses) and they will wear down from short trips as well as long trips. The amount of wear on a single mule shoe just doesn't carry that much weight with me as evidence of Jesuits, Peraltas or anyone else for that matter. But that is just my view of this bit of evidence.
if the spanish took montezuma to the superstition that they took the treasures as well
Hmm well okay if the Spanish took emperor Montezuma (also spelled Moctezuma) to the Superstitions, they might as well have taken along the treasures as well - however there is no record of the Spanish taking Montezuma anywhere outside of the Aztec capital, and in fact Montezuma died there. The Spaniards then had to beat a hasty retreat suffering heavy losses, it took them months to build a fleet of boats and make another assault on the capital Tenochtitlan. What happened to the Aztec gold, which filled two rooms? No one knows today, however it seems doubtful that the Waltz mine was even a shaft at that time so certainly could not hold such a vast amount of gold. Remember that the total production from Waltz's mine is only a bit more than 1200 pounds, the ore itself being incredibly rich so he did not need to create a gigantic mine to extract a fortune in gold.
this makes me think they working this mine alot more than we think they did ... they were still working it when it was lost , so thats a good sign it is not played out ! it may be far bigger than anyone knows or was lead to beleave ...
Well you are sure welcome to hold your own opinion as to how large the mine workings must be in the Superstitions, however consider this - if it were in fact such a huge operation, why is it still lost? Does it not make more sense, logically, that it was in fact a VERY SMALL mine, one that a man working alone would be able to conceal in a matter of a day or two work? If it were HUGE, with all the thousands and thousands of prospectors and treasure hunters who have combed over those hills over the years since Waltz died (there was precious little prospecting done in the Superstitions prior to his day) and that NO ONE has managed to find it? I extremely doubt that there were any large mining operations anywhere in the Superstitions, though there were several SMALL ones. (NOT however eighteen, seven, eight or any other large number but a literal handful that could be counted on ONE hand.) When ore is extremely rich, a large operation is not necessary, and would invite attack by hostile Apaches or Yavapais, a small operation might be able to work and not be so likely to be caught by the Apaches - though Weiser was caught by them and suffered the consequences.
As for the bells ringing and dogs barking being heard miles away, hmm well that I cannot say for certain; however here in our area you can hear dogs barking several miles away on clear days and nights, and when we lived in PA we could hear church bells ringing in three towns from our home (on a mountaintop) that were three, five and seven miles away respectively as the crow flies. So I have reason to believe they could hear the bells ring and dogs bark, if conditions were right - however I don't believe they would hear bells ringing in the Superstitions in Nacori.
RP McMurphy wrote:
For instance, the ancient Greeks have a proven history in fossilized dinosaur bones (huge) discoverd on islands from which they created their Gods
Hello RP - have to disagree with you there, the dino bones found by the Greeks were not thought to be those of gods but of monsters; their "gods" can virtually all be traced back to Bronze age princes and princesses, ordinary human beings who were "deified" (granted the honors of a god) AFTER their deaths. In fact even the Greeks themselves found the 'antics' of their 'gods' to be a bit hard to believe as 'gods' - some even commented how ridiculous it seemed for their 'gods' to be cavorting about, raping, fighting, etc. The dino bones were perplexing to the Greeks, so they imagined them as 'monsters' with some not being SO far off from the truth (the Hippogriff for example was the bones of a Tricerotops-type animal, the shoulder bones being mistaken for wings). Such monster and giant bones were usually given to local temples where they were venerated, but not taken as being "gods".
Blindbowman wrote: how about the oak island
Again, I cannot agree that Oak Island has anything to do with Blackbeard, Captain Kidd or any other pirate including Captain Morgan himself. The amount of labor and engineering involved in creating this tremendous set of traps is beyond the abilities AND time available to pirates in my opinion. Not to insult the good old pirates, they were pretty good at their craft - but this Oak Island trap involved building a dam across the whole bay, draining out the sea water, etc this amount of effort took a great deal of time and manpower as well as skilled engineers. Skilled engineers and massive manpower equals some sort of government effort (as in a king or baron or earl) with plenty of men, money and those skilled engineers, as well as plenty of time with no worries about a Royal Navy frigate coming across them at work.
so now you know how it was designed and what is down there and why ...
Well I have an idea what might be buried under Oak Island, but doubt that it has anything to do with pirates, and the "why" is a very different reason!
No offense intended Blindbowman or anyone else, I think we can agree to disagree - heck you might be right and could prove me utterly wrong some day. If so I hope you won't rub it in TOO much!
I hope you all have a great day, and thank you for your patience for this very long post.Oroblanco
the blindbowman
Bronze Member
- Nov 21, 2006
- 1,379
- 30
you bring up some very good points althuo a lot of them i had already weighted out for the balance .. but if i start a treasure hunting team i would no dout check your name twice as skilled and wise ...
you are right the Tayopa dose in fact predate the jesuit kino . yet i took that into acount . i can only point out my reasoning for saying what i did . first off kino was guided to the superstitions by the pimas , where they showed him seven citys of gold , ruins of Azasazi or ancient ones ... they show him a volcanic blow out ... they do not state anything about the tunnle mine .. i saw what do in fact beleave i have prove is in fact the Dutchman mine . as stated a volcanic blowout , so yes i could beleave the Volcanic blowout became the LDM .and that Kino latter found the Tayopa tunne and made the Peralta _ruth or what was the peralta Gonzales map and the stone peralta maps and the dirrections that Ruth had .. now i got to clear the path so you under stand my line of thinking . i know the Peralta ruth map dose in fact point out what i have found all 3 sites . the house in the cave as well as the tunnle and the funnle shape i saw reflecting gold shine up at the plane . know that under stood . i can say these maps are 100% correct when translated correctly ...
Kino also made the jesuit letterhead for the Tayopa mine papers , i will explan why on decemeber 4th when i post all my reseach on the site but for now i am stated IMHO what i beleave goes with the sites i found ...
the peralta i agree had nothing or next to nothing to do with the mines . and the peralta stones and dirrections should have been called the kino stones and dirrections ..
if kino was shown the seven cities . he may have in fact been shown tayopa and the tayopa mine if i am right and it is that close to the LDM . in fact kino was the leader of the jesuits and if anyone build a chruch there it was in fact KINO , and what the chruch mas made of or how it was made could be anyone of a few given storyies , yet
i have to agree with the man that found the statue in the cave in 1959 . alot of people dont beleave the story at all but i have to for a good reason it dose in fact fit the locateions i found 100% if any jesuits hide treasure anywhere it had to be kino or kino knew about it and where it was hiden .. thus the maps . and if the maps do fit my locations 100% than we got 3 sites or the peralta ruth map and directions and the peralta stones and all the known acounts of the dutchmans clues are all wrong .and i didnt see what i know i saw .. that just dum ! because i do know what i saw and i was able to translate all the clues and the maps useing what i saw a a basic starting point .. and it worked 100% ....
what is in the LDM i dont know yet . but i know it can in fact reflect bright golden shine for up to 12-1400 ft when in direct sun light . and it is so small of a opening that it may be 1 -out of about 1,000,000 chance that anyone would ever see it in this manner again ...
but i was in the right place at the right itime i guess ..
if i can prove the LDM is where it is on the maps and the stones and the direction and in the clues than i can only beleave that yes i have found the LDM . and the tunnle and the house in the cave are both in the maps as well as the clues . so i got to beleave the peralta map is in fact correct and the tunnle is there .. now under stand not to say i have found it just to state if i am right and i have found the LDM and proven the peralta map is correct and there is a large tunnle under the LDM and a house in the cave across from it than , can i prove the stones are correct and the answer is yes ...
i have found the witch and she is in fact real .. and i know how to translate the peralta stones . by what i have seen and know ...they do in fact point out the tunnle and the LDM and the house in the cave . the only thing that is diffrent in the peralta stones is the house in the cave is in the same place but the peralta witch map refers to it as a chruch ,,.. thus i read the story of the tayopa and took note of the facts that are common between the two legends and at that time i beleaved i only was seeing part of the total legend ...that kino was hideing . and when i saw the tayopa letter head here at this site i knew it on the spot it was in fact the tunnle kino had maped out . he dose in fact make the letter head , and i will prove that decemeber 4th ...
the letter head shows a bell and that is a sign of the chruch and on the other side it has two picks the signs for two mines , and that is in fact what i have found , the sun is balanced between the two mt a even 1200 noon to state north .. that is just what the peralta ruth map shows and just what i found ...
you bring up alot of good points and i do agree with many of them . i do not beleave the dutchman mine is played out or even close . i do beleave the dutchman was coverd over by the dutchman and a earth quake must have shaken the timmers lose or i would not have seen it reflecting upward ... that stated i agree with your avalueation of the mine it self it is a very small shaft in almost unseeable area . when talking to the tonto nationial forst office scott wood stated that there was a mine found over a mile away . but nothing in this area ... of my locations . and what is a real kick in the teeth is how close the tunnle and house in the cave are and no one has seen them yet as i stated i was 15 ft away from the house in the cave and i almost walked right past it ...
and the fact remains if i am right and i have found the LDM if the tayopa is there is just cream on the milk .. iceing on the cake . added 000 zeros ...my request to the tonto nationial forst is for 3 sites and they do fit the maps and the acounts and the stones ....
thats why 3 permits . if the house in the cave is in fact the chruch of tayopa . that should be easy to prove by the vault under the chruch . if the tayopa mine is the tunnle that should be easy to prove after opening it and takeing acount of its size and anything in the mine . if the jesuit treasure trove is in the tunnle and it is the tayopa treasure trove . that should be easy to prove because of the listed inventory of the tayopa treasure trove as well as the names on the bells them selfs .. and if it was the tayopa the iron door should in fact be in the mine . and what is behind the iron door should be easy to prove because i well open it ,....LOL if i get that far !
and yes i agree with you so far i can prove kino made the maps but if the spainish had anything to do with kino it was running the mine , but kino never saw them running it by the sounds of the story . so he may never had seen the spainish at all ..
if we are to beleave one acount over another let it be from a firsthand sighting and if you dont beleave that than lets weight each story , each clue and each un translated peice on our scales of wisdom and see what value they have to any of the storys or to other clues or in the over all translation of the maps or data ...
i cant say what real de tayopa found , i know what i found .. and yes i do beleave i can in fact prove it is the tayopa mine ... as i stated if i get my permits or not i will post my reseach decmeber 4th , the fact remains my work and reseach has already been given to the tonto nationial forst and this will have no bearing on my request for treasure trove permits . they are a matter of record and no one can make any clams at these locations untill my clams are proven or disproven by law ..so we will see what i have found .
if the jesuits were trying to hide the treasure troves from the spainish king yes they would have taken them to hell and back why not just take them to hell to start with lol ... kino knew the location of the tunnle he knew the location of the tayopa . in 1959 the man saw a golden statue in a large cave or tunnle , the statue fits those of the treasure trove of the tayopa by two acounts ..and if the tunnle is in fact the tayopa kino knew that as well and he did make all the maps for these 3 sites i have found and the tayopa letter head IMHO i will prove that ...
"because no one has reported any 240 pack mules of gold and church treasure in the Dutchman "tunnel"
well if i have proven to my self that the 1959 acount of the golden statue was true and IMHO it was part of the treasure trove of the tayopa chruch and the chruch was run by the jesuit kino than i may see a path the reat of you dont because my list of fact is longer than your list at this point in time ... the fact remains . not to say i have but to prove a point , if you beleave i did find the 3 sites and they are what i beleave they are than what that tells me is more than most know now and i can see how the clues fit togather because they are in fact the 3 sites ...
sorry, i for got to add the 2 . montezuma 2 took his peole and hiden them behind a magic stone gate way ...these legends are so old and confuseing at times it odd they dont have little green men inthem ...lol
if this is the tayopa tunnle it may be miles of tunnles under the ground and i do mean miles . some say that hunderds of thousands of indains from diffrent tribes died working the mines , IMHO there was 7 tunnle of caves in side of the tayopa , that my friend is one huge tunnle system ...and i also beleave the tayopa was in fact why the LDM deposit was not worked by the spainish . do to the chance of cave ins from above ...
i and the apache did a great job covering over the house in the cave and the tunnle ,
lets wait and see if i am right ...
you are right the Tayopa dose in fact predate the jesuit kino . yet i took that into acount . i can only point out my reasoning for saying what i did . first off kino was guided to the superstitions by the pimas , where they showed him seven citys of gold , ruins of Azasazi or ancient ones ... they show him a volcanic blow out ... they do not state anything about the tunnle mine .. i saw what do in fact beleave i have prove is in fact the Dutchman mine . as stated a volcanic blowout , so yes i could beleave the Volcanic blowout became the LDM .and that Kino latter found the Tayopa tunne and made the Peralta _ruth or what was the peralta Gonzales map and the stone peralta maps and the dirrections that Ruth had .. now i got to clear the path so you under stand my line of thinking . i know the Peralta ruth map dose in fact point out what i have found all 3 sites . the house in the cave as well as the tunnle and the funnle shape i saw reflecting gold shine up at the plane . know that under stood . i can say these maps are 100% correct when translated correctly ...
Kino also made the jesuit letterhead for the Tayopa mine papers , i will explan why on decemeber 4th when i post all my reseach on the site but for now i am stated IMHO what i beleave goes with the sites i found ...
the peralta i agree had nothing or next to nothing to do with the mines . and the peralta stones and dirrections should have been called the kino stones and dirrections ..
if kino was shown the seven cities . he may have in fact been shown tayopa and the tayopa mine if i am right and it is that close to the LDM . in fact kino was the leader of the jesuits and if anyone build a chruch there it was in fact KINO , and what the chruch mas made of or how it was made could be anyone of a few given storyies , yet
i have to agree with the man that found the statue in the cave in 1959 . alot of people dont beleave the story at all but i have to for a good reason it dose in fact fit the locateions i found 100% if any jesuits hide treasure anywhere it had to be kino or kino knew about it and where it was hiden .. thus the maps . and if the maps do fit my locations 100% than we got 3 sites or the peralta ruth map and directions and the peralta stones and all the known acounts of the dutchmans clues are all wrong .and i didnt see what i know i saw .. that just dum ! because i do know what i saw and i was able to translate all the clues and the maps useing what i saw a a basic starting point .. and it worked 100% ....
what is in the LDM i dont know yet . but i know it can in fact reflect bright golden shine for up to 12-1400 ft when in direct sun light . and it is so small of a opening that it may be 1 -out of about 1,000,000 chance that anyone would ever see it in this manner again ...
but i was in the right place at the right itime i guess ..
if i can prove the LDM is where it is on the maps and the stones and the direction and in the clues than i can only beleave that yes i have found the LDM . and the tunnle and the house in the cave are both in the maps as well as the clues . so i got to beleave the peralta map is in fact correct and the tunnle is there .. now under stand not to say i have found it just to state if i am right and i have found the LDM and proven the peralta map is correct and there is a large tunnle under the LDM and a house in the cave across from it than , can i prove the stones are correct and the answer is yes ...
i have found the witch and she is in fact real .. and i know how to translate the peralta stones . by what i have seen and know ...they do in fact point out the tunnle and the LDM and the house in the cave . the only thing that is diffrent in the peralta stones is the house in the cave is in the same place but the peralta witch map refers to it as a chruch ,,.. thus i read the story of the tayopa and took note of the facts that are common between the two legends and at that time i beleaved i only was seeing part of the total legend ...that kino was hideing . and when i saw the tayopa letter head here at this site i knew it on the spot it was in fact the tunnle kino had maped out . he dose in fact make the letter head , and i will prove that decemeber 4th ...
the letter head shows a bell and that is a sign of the chruch and on the other side it has two picks the signs for two mines , and that is in fact what i have found , the sun is balanced between the two mt a even 1200 noon to state north .. that is just what the peralta ruth map shows and just what i found ...
you bring up alot of good points and i do agree with many of them . i do not beleave the dutchman mine is played out or even close . i do beleave the dutchman was coverd over by the dutchman and a earth quake must have shaken the timmers lose or i would not have seen it reflecting upward ... that stated i agree with your avalueation of the mine it self it is a very small shaft in almost unseeable area . when talking to the tonto nationial forst office scott wood stated that there was a mine found over a mile away . but nothing in this area ... of my locations . and what is a real kick in the teeth is how close the tunnle and house in the cave are and no one has seen them yet as i stated i was 15 ft away from the house in the cave and i almost walked right past it ...
and the fact remains if i am right and i have found the LDM if the tayopa is there is just cream on the milk .. iceing on the cake . added 000 zeros ...my request to the tonto nationial forst is for 3 sites and they do fit the maps and the acounts and the stones ....
thats why 3 permits . if the house in the cave is in fact the chruch of tayopa . that should be easy to prove by the vault under the chruch . if the tayopa mine is the tunnle that should be easy to prove after opening it and takeing acount of its size and anything in the mine . if the jesuit treasure trove is in the tunnle and it is the tayopa treasure trove . that should be easy to prove because of the listed inventory of the tayopa treasure trove as well as the names on the bells them selfs .. and if it was the tayopa the iron door should in fact be in the mine . and what is behind the iron door should be easy to prove because i well open it ,....LOL if i get that far !
and yes i agree with you so far i can prove kino made the maps but if the spainish had anything to do with kino it was running the mine , but kino never saw them running it by the sounds of the story . so he may never had seen the spainish at all ..
if we are to beleave one acount over another let it be from a firsthand sighting and if you dont beleave that than lets weight each story , each clue and each un translated peice on our scales of wisdom and see what value they have to any of the storys or to other clues or in the over all translation of the maps or data ...
i cant say what real de tayopa found , i know what i found .. and yes i do beleave i can in fact prove it is the tayopa mine ... as i stated if i get my permits or not i will post my reseach decmeber 4th , the fact remains my work and reseach has already been given to the tonto nationial forst and this will have no bearing on my request for treasure trove permits . they are a matter of record and no one can make any clams at these locations untill my clams are proven or disproven by law ..so we will see what i have found .
if the jesuits were trying to hide the treasure troves from the spainish king yes they would have taken them to hell and back why not just take them to hell to start with lol ... kino knew the location of the tunnle he knew the location of the tayopa . in 1959 the man saw a golden statue in a large cave or tunnle , the statue fits those of the treasure trove of the tayopa by two acounts ..and if the tunnle is in fact the tayopa kino knew that as well and he did make all the maps for these 3 sites i have found and the tayopa letter head IMHO i will prove that ...
"because no one has reported any 240 pack mules of gold and church treasure in the Dutchman "tunnel"
well if i have proven to my self that the 1959 acount of the golden statue was true and IMHO it was part of the treasure trove of the tayopa chruch and the chruch was run by the jesuit kino than i may see a path the reat of you dont because my list of fact is longer than your list at this point in time ... the fact remains . not to say i have but to prove a point , if you beleave i did find the 3 sites and they are what i beleave they are than what that tells me is more than most know now and i can see how the clues fit togather because they are in fact the 3 sites ...
sorry, i for got to add the 2 . montezuma 2 took his peole and hiden them behind a magic stone gate way ...these legends are so old and confuseing at times it odd they dont have little green men inthem ...lol
if this is the tayopa tunnle it may be miles of tunnles under the ground and i do mean miles . some say that hunderds of thousands of indains from diffrent tribes died working the mines , IMHO there was 7 tunnle of caves in side of the tayopa , that my friend is one huge tunnle system ...and i also beleave the tayopa was in fact why the LDM deposit was not worked by the spainish . do to the chance of cave ins from above ...
i and the apache did a great job covering over the house in the cave and the tunnle ,
lets wait and see if i am right ...
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
HI Bowman, fascinating, more please, I find it very interesting. Oro Blanco is extremely intelligent and does a wonderful job of research and logic, you will have your work cut out.
p.s. appol Beth.
Tropical Tramp
p.s. appol Beth.
Tropical Tramp
the blindbowman
Bronze Member
- Nov 21, 2006
- 1,379
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yesdjui5 said:
the blindbowman
Bronze Member
- Nov 21, 2006
- 1,379
- 30
i agree 100% , as far as Intelligence , we would make a great team . in 1987 i went threw 4 mouths of test by the goverment , only to have them tell me that my IQ was Unknown , i said what the f do you mean Unknown , they said sorry but our computers can only score from 1 to 100 . you scored 107 .. 7 full points over the scale . i ask so whats that mean . we dont know we never had any one do it before ....i tested 100 % mechanically inclind that set a 42 year record ...i wonderd why i could fix thousand peice clocks with no books or training ..lol ..i grew up with a father that taught ham radio to the blind and was a 29 bomber radio man in korea ,and invented things for the airforce sorry i can tell you what ,.... my oldest brother was a min man speacalist .. and worked on go and no go computers .....so much for brains lolRealdeTayopa said:
not really . he can beleave what he wants thats his right and i am not here to preach to anyone . or convert anyone . i was just stateing what i am working on . i am a creative artistic with autistic tendacnes , board line savant , thats why i have been a recluse for going on 19 years ...
as for what is to come .. watch . i am a master of thinking . i was not jokeing about righting a addvanced logic code .it took me 7 years .....
in 1999 i was blind for 3 months and could not talk or walk . i healed my self . i have had no help from the out side world .. other than life or death check ups ...
i like the way he respects him self ... a set order shows self respect , he confronted the data not me ...
as for the locations i am trying hard to give something to the site with out haveing everyone going wild ...
this is the main idea about posting . my reseach in open web sites ...
i agree with some of you i do not want these sites to become lost again ... and my reseach is in full details . explaning maps and meanings with some very direct mapping... i dont leave much unexplaned ...
thats what sucks about the tonto nationial forst they are stalling , and trying to figer out what to do with this ...what happend was they figerd i was some mad man and the data would be some well know fake ,... but it was not a fake and they had ask me to give them my reseach to inspect the sites , now they cant take it back ...andf the sites are a matter on growing record . so they can say there is nothing there but i will post my reseach on the open web and if they say the sites have man made sign they must give out the permits ,,i feel sorry for what is going to happen but it would have happend if anyone found it , maybe not all 3 at one time but maybe ...
jim hatt ask me to tell him where they were and he would go look ...LOl i can beleave he was that forward ... he got nothing from me ...i offerd the 5 men in the A&e move on the LDM even shares to mine and no one took my offer ....lol
they will wish they had ...
Oroblanco
Gold Member
- Jan 21, 2005
- 7,838
- 9,830
- Detector(s) used
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Re: The Treasures of Tayopa (long reply!)
Hello friends, there has been a lot of ground covered so will be a LONG post, I ask your patience.
First thanks for the kind words! I think I was only posting what some of us were thinking, privately - some don't like to make their reasoning public.
Blindbowman wrote:
where they showed him seven citys of gold , ruins of Azasazi or ancient ones
I found the report of Coronado on the seven cities of Cibola (a private letter to his viceroy Mendoza) that they were nothing like what they had been described, they were seven small pueblo villages with one being somewhat larger; the "golden" tale came from deNiza (if memory serves) who only saw the villages from some distance away, and Coronado felt this was only because the grass-thatched roofing of the huts looked like gold from a distance. He said the people had very little gold, a little turquoise which he said was however very good quality, a few chickens which they did not eat but kept for their feathers and for obtaining portents of the future. The site of Cibola was what would today be right on the border between AZ and NM, well north of here. Here is an extract:
Of the situation and condition of the Seven Cities called the kingdom of Cevola,(Cibola) and the sort of people and their customs, and of the animals which are found there.
IT now remains for me to tell about this city and kingdom and province, of which the father provincial gave Your Lordship an account. In brief, I can assure you that in reality he has not told the truth in a single thing that he said, but everything is the reverse of what he said, except the name of the city and the large stone houses. (Referring to the account of Cibola by Friar de Niza) For, although they are not decorated with turquoises, or made of lime nor of good bricks, nevertheless they are very good houses, with three and four and five stories, where there are very good apartments and good rooms with corridors, and some very good rooms underground and paved, which are made for winter, and are something like a sort of hot baths. The ladders which they have for their houses are all movable and portable, which are taken up and placed wherever they please. They are made of two pieces of wood, with rounds like ours.
The Seven Cities are seven little villages, all having the kind of houses I have described. They are all within a radius of five leagues. They are all called the kingdom of Cevola, and each has its own name and no single one is called Cevola, but all together are called Cevola. This one which I have called a city I have named Granada, partly because it has some similarity to it, as well as out of regard for Your Lordship. In this place where I am now lodged there are perhaps 200 houses, all surrounded by a wall, and it seems to me that with the other houses, which are not so surrounded, there might be altogether 500 families. There is another town near by, which is one of the seven, but somewhat larger than this, and another of the same size as this, & the other four are somewhat smaller. I send them all to Your Lordship, painted with the route. The skin on which the painting is made was found here with other skins.
The people of the towns seem to me to be of ordinary size and intelligent, although I do not think that they have the judgment & intelligence which they ought to have to build these houses in the way in which they have, for most of them are entirely naked except the covering of their privy parts, and they have painted mantles like the one which I send to Your Lordship. They do not raise cotton, because the country is very cold, but they wear mantles, as may be seen by the exhibit which I send. It is also true that some cotton thread was found in their houses. They wear the hair on their heads like the Mexicans. They all have good figures, and are well bred. I think that they have a quantity of turquoises, which they had removed with the rest of their goods, except the corn, when I arrived, because I did not find any women here nor any men under 15 years or over 60, except two or three old men who remained in command of all the other men and the warriors. Two points of emerald and some little broken stones which approach the color of rather poor garnets were found in a paper, besides other stone crystals, which I gave to one of my servants to keep until they could be sent to Your Lordship. He has lost them, as they tell me. We found fowls, but only a few, and yet there are some. The Indians tell me that they do not eat these in any of the seven villages, but that they keep them merely for the sake of procuring the feathers. I do not believe this, because they are very good, and better than those of Mexico.
The climate of this country and the temperature of the air is almost like that of Mexico, because it is sometimes hot and sometimes it rains. I have not yet seen it rain, however, except once when there fell a little shower with wind, such as often falls in Spain. The snow and the cold are usually very great, according to what the natives of the country all say. This may very probably be so, both because of the nature of the country and the sort of houses they build and the skins and other things which these people have to protect them from the cold. There are no kinds of fruit or fruit trees. The country is all level, & is nowhere shut in by high mountains, although there are some hills and rough passages. (Not the way I would describe the Superstitions!) (bold emphasis added by me)
Here is a map showing where deNiza claimed Cibola lay, and where Coronado found the seven villages:
If the Pimas took father Kino that far north, to Cibola, Kino did not record this. I feel confident that the ruins reported by Kino were the ruins of Casa Grande, which would fit in very well with his description of his travels.
what is in the LDM i dont know yet . but i know it can in fact reflect bright golden shine for up to 12-1400 ft when in direct sun light
Most of the old-timers who knew Waltz in the time period when he found his mine, were of the opinion that the ore body was of the rare type, a chimney of ore, only one other example I know of in Arizona and that was at Rich Hill, this site produced a spectacular amount of gold from a relatively small area. A chimney would fit with the description of a shaft (following the ore body) though this does not fit with the description of Wagoner's ledge, that ore was quite different. I don't know if I can accept the tale of the 240 mule loads being stored in the mine, though perhaps this is something quite different - and a cave would be a logical site to conceal hidden riches.
i have found the witch and she is in fact real ..
YIKES oh dear, you have met my ex-girlfriend! 
he letter head shows a bell and that is a sign of the chruch and on the other side it has two picks the signs for two mines , and that is in fact what i have found , the sun is balanced between the two mt a even 1200 noon to state north ..
Hmm, the Sun has two paths, one it follows each day, the other it follows each year; each day the Sun rises at a slightly different spot and sets at a slightly different spot, drifting north and south as the seasons go by - so on what day of the year does the Sun strike the correct spot?
the dutchman was coverd over by the dutchman and a earth quake must have shaken the timmers lose or i would not have seen it reflecting upward
There was a pretty good quake that hit the Superstitions in the late 1890s, it is possible this either buried Waltz's mine or un-covered it; if so, it seems likely that many people would have seen the gold shining from a distance. There are even tourist flights over the hills there, helicopters in fact - so if the ore is open to the sky, there is every chance that someone else will spot it and perhaps even land to investigate it. Not trying to make you worry, Blindbowman, about someone doing some "claim jumping" - but it does happen! Then too perhaps what is un-covered is quite small and only visible from a certain angle (above) as you said. I am not going to "tell you what you saw" as I was not present so do not know. I have done some tramping about in the Superstitions personally, and became convinced that Waltz was telling the truth about hiding his mine so well that "...you could drive an Army pack train over it and never see it."
The reason I suggested that you talk to Real deTayopa is that he has found that not only were there THREE Tayopas, but he now owns one of them! Is it possible there was a fourth, located in the Superstitions? I would grant that it is possible, but would be very surprised if it were so - the Superstitions were not well explored in the time of the Spanish and Mexicans due to the ferocious defense of the Apaches and Yavapais. When you read through the Spanish and Mexican records you find very little report of anyone venturing into those mountains.
sorry, i for got to add the 2 . montezuma 2 took his peole and hiden them behind a magic stone gate way ...these legends are so old and confuseing at times it odd they dont have little green men inthem ...lol
With the legends of Montezuma's treasure, we are forced to accept the tales of local tribes, which are in some cases difficult to believe and often contradictory. Rather like walking through a minefield or cow pasture, barefoot - have to watch where we step and avoid the BS!
as for the locations i am trying hard to give something to the site with out haveing everyone going wild ...
this is the main idea about posting . my reseach in open web sites ...
There are folks who get very upset when information on lost treasures/lost mines is published in public, but they get worked up over nothing really because with all the information available, there is always some key fact which is WRONG and that is why so many lost mines and lost treasures remain LOST. I am sure Real de Tayopa can attest to this, (I have a personal experience of wrong information too, which I can't share) however if you have information that is absolutely and undeniably CORRECT and leads directly to a lost mine/treasure, please don't post it publicly? That may sound strange, but there are people who would take steps to prevent anyone ever being able to go in and mine it (I like to call them Eco-nazis, the same folks old Buzzard Massie referred to as "Scissorbills"!) by making it some kind of a historical monument.
lets wait and see if i am right ...
Good luck and good hunting to you my friend, I hope you find the treasure that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
"A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." --anon
PS - Dang it you know when we get to thinking about that "path not taken" I remember having had a chance to visit the site of Cibola years ago. A friend of mine (now deceased) told me he knew exactly the place and could prove it, offered to show it to me but I was not interested as I "knew" that Cibola had no gold - heck with the Spanish army camped there and the battle to take the main town (Granada) there would be all kinds of artifacts and relics to find with a metal detector today. I just hope that they don't make it a national monument, and we can all forget about ever detecting there. NOT Zuni, NM as most think but in the same area.
Hello friends, there has been a lot of ground covered so will be a LONG post, I ask your patience.
First thanks for the kind words! I think I was only posting what some of us were thinking, privately - some don't like to make their reasoning public.
Blindbowman wrote:
where they showed him seven citys of gold , ruins of Azasazi or ancient ones
I found the report of Coronado on the seven cities of Cibola (a private letter to his viceroy Mendoza) that they were nothing like what they had been described, they were seven small pueblo villages with one being somewhat larger; the "golden" tale came from deNiza (if memory serves) who only saw the villages from some distance away, and Coronado felt this was only because the grass-thatched roofing of the huts looked like gold from a distance. He said the people had very little gold, a little turquoise which he said was however very good quality, a few chickens which they did not eat but kept for their feathers and for obtaining portents of the future. The site of Cibola was what would today be right on the border between AZ and NM, well north of here. Here is an extract:
Of the situation and condition of the Seven Cities called the kingdom of Cevola,(Cibola) and the sort of people and their customs, and of the animals which are found there.
IT now remains for me to tell about this city and kingdom and province, of which the father provincial gave Your Lordship an account. In brief, I can assure you that in reality he has not told the truth in a single thing that he said, but everything is the reverse of what he said, except the name of the city and the large stone houses. (Referring to the account of Cibola by Friar de Niza) For, although they are not decorated with turquoises, or made of lime nor of good bricks, nevertheless they are very good houses, with three and four and five stories, where there are very good apartments and good rooms with corridors, and some very good rooms underground and paved, which are made for winter, and are something like a sort of hot baths. The ladders which they have for their houses are all movable and portable, which are taken up and placed wherever they please. They are made of two pieces of wood, with rounds like ours.
The Seven Cities are seven little villages, all having the kind of houses I have described. They are all within a radius of five leagues. They are all called the kingdom of Cevola, and each has its own name and no single one is called Cevola, but all together are called Cevola. This one which I have called a city I have named Granada, partly because it has some similarity to it, as well as out of regard for Your Lordship. In this place where I am now lodged there are perhaps 200 houses, all surrounded by a wall, and it seems to me that with the other houses, which are not so surrounded, there might be altogether 500 families. There is another town near by, which is one of the seven, but somewhat larger than this, and another of the same size as this, & the other four are somewhat smaller. I send them all to Your Lordship, painted with the route. The skin on which the painting is made was found here with other skins.
The people of the towns seem to me to be of ordinary size and intelligent, although I do not think that they have the judgment & intelligence which they ought to have to build these houses in the way in which they have, for most of them are entirely naked except the covering of their privy parts, and they have painted mantles like the one which I send to Your Lordship. They do not raise cotton, because the country is very cold, but they wear mantles, as may be seen by the exhibit which I send. It is also true that some cotton thread was found in their houses. They wear the hair on their heads like the Mexicans. They all have good figures, and are well bred. I think that they have a quantity of turquoises, which they had removed with the rest of their goods, except the corn, when I arrived, because I did not find any women here nor any men under 15 years or over 60, except two or three old men who remained in command of all the other men and the warriors. Two points of emerald and some little broken stones which approach the color of rather poor garnets were found in a paper, besides other stone crystals, which I gave to one of my servants to keep until they could be sent to Your Lordship. He has lost them, as they tell me. We found fowls, but only a few, and yet there are some. The Indians tell me that they do not eat these in any of the seven villages, but that they keep them merely for the sake of procuring the feathers. I do not believe this, because they are very good, and better than those of Mexico.
The climate of this country and the temperature of the air is almost like that of Mexico, because it is sometimes hot and sometimes it rains. I have not yet seen it rain, however, except once when there fell a little shower with wind, such as often falls in Spain. The snow and the cold are usually very great, according to what the natives of the country all say. This may very probably be so, both because of the nature of the country and the sort of houses they build and the skins and other things which these people have to protect them from the cold. There are no kinds of fruit or fruit trees. The country is all level, & is nowhere shut in by high mountains, although there are some hills and rough passages. (Not the way I would describe the Superstitions!) (bold emphasis added by me)
Here is a map showing where deNiza claimed Cibola lay, and where Coronado found the seven villages:
If the Pimas took father Kino that far north, to Cibola, Kino did not record this. I feel confident that the ruins reported by Kino were the ruins of Casa Grande, which would fit in very well with his description of his travels.
what is in the LDM i dont know yet . but i know it can in fact reflect bright golden shine for up to 12-1400 ft when in direct sun light
Most of the old-timers who knew Waltz in the time period when he found his mine, were of the opinion that the ore body was of the rare type, a chimney of ore, only one other example I know of in Arizona and that was at Rich Hill, this site produced a spectacular amount of gold from a relatively small area. A chimney would fit with the description of a shaft (following the ore body) though this does not fit with the description of Wagoner's ledge, that ore was quite different. I don't know if I can accept the tale of the 240 mule loads being stored in the mine, though perhaps this is something quite different - and a cave would be a logical site to conceal hidden riches.
i have found the witch and she is in fact real ..
YIKES oh dear, you have met my ex-girlfriend!
he letter head shows a bell and that is a sign of the chruch and on the other side it has two picks the signs for two mines , and that is in fact what i have found , the sun is balanced between the two mt a even 1200 noon to state north ..
Hmm, the Sun has two paths, one it follows each day, the other it follows each year; each day the Sun rises at a slightly different spot and sets at a slightly different spot, drifting north and south as the seasons go by - so on what day of the year does the Sun strike the correct spot?
the dutchman was coverd over by the dutchman and a earth quake must have shaken the timmers lose or i would not have seen it reflecting upward
There was a pretty good quake that hit the Superstitions in the late 1890s, it is possible this either buried Waltz's mine or un-covered it; if so, it seems likely that many people would have seen the gold shining from a distance. There are even tourist flights over the hills there, helicopters in fact - so if the ore is open to the sky, there is every chance that someone else will spot it and perhaps even land to investigate it. Not trying to make you worry, Blindbowman, about someone doing some "claim jumping" - but it does happen! Then too perhaps what is un-covered is quite small and only visible from a certain angle (above) as you said. I am not going to "tell you what you saw" as I was not present so do not know. I have done some tramping about in the Superstitions personally, and became convinced that Waltz was telling the truth about hiding his mine so well that "...you could drive an Army pack train over it and never see it."
The reason I suggested that you talk to Real deTayopa is that he has found that not only were there THREE Tayopas, but he now owns one of them! Is it possible there was a fourth, located in the Superstitions? I would grant that it is possible, but would be very surprised if it were so - the Superstitions were not well explored in the time of the Spanish and Mexicans due to the ferocious defense of the Apaches and Yavapais. When you read through the Spanish and Mexican records you find very little report of anyone venturing into those mountains.
sorry, i for got to add the 2 . montezuma 2 took his peole and hiden them behind a magic stone gate way ...these legends are so old and confuseing at times it odd they dont have little green men inthem ...lol
With the legends of Montezuma's treasure, we are forced to accept the tales of local tribes, which are in some cases difficult to believe and often contradictory. Rather like walking through a minefield or cow pasture, barefoot - have to watch where we step and avoid the BS!
as for the locations i am trying hard to give something to the site with out haveing everyone going wild ...
this is the main idea about posting . my reseach in open web sites ...
There are folks who get very upset when information on lost treasures/lost mines is published in public, but they get worked up over nothing really because with all the information available, there is always some key fact which is WRONG and that is why so many lost mines and lost treasures remain LOST. I am sure Real de Tayopa can attest to this, (I have a personal experience of wrong information too, which I can't share) however if you have information that is absolutely and undeniably CORRECT and leads directly to a lost mine/treasure, please don't post it publicly? That may sound strange, but there are people who would take steps to prevent anyone ever being able to go in and mine it (I like to call them Eco-nazis, the same folks old Buzzard Massie referred to as "Scissorbills"!
) by making it some kind of a historical monument. lets wait and see if i am right ...
Good luck and good hunting to you my friend, I hope you find the treasure that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
"A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." --anon
PS - Dang it you know when we get to thinking about that "path not taken" I remember having had a chance to visit the site of Cibola years ago. A friend of mine (now deceased) told me he knew exactly the place and could prove it, offered to show it to me but I was not interested as I "knew" that Cibola had no gold - heck with the Spanish army camped there and the battle to take the main town (Granada) there would be all kinds of artifacts and relics to find with a metal detector today. I just hope that they don't make it a national monument, and we can all forget about ever detecting there. NOT Zuni, NM as most think but in the same area.
Springfield
Silver Member
Coronado
Coronado, of course, was sandbagged by Marcos de Niza, and the Zuni "Seven Villages" had no bearing on the "Seven Cities" legend that the 1540 expedition was seeking. All it took was a wrong turn up the Rio San Francisco, a dead end at Zuni, and de Niza was sent home "in disgrace" as a liar. Coronado pushed on all the way to Kansas on one of the greatest snipe hunt of all times. De Niza, a Franciscan who previously saw first-hand the treachery of the Conquerors against the indiginous people of Peru re gold, had no intention of contributing to more of the same on the Northern Frontier, thus his betrayal against Coronado. Disinformation is a powerful weapon.
Of greater interest is de Niza's 1539 trip with Estevanico the black Muslim to the "Seven Cities", which are better described as the "Seven Caves", AKA Chicomoztoc, the Place of Origin of the Mexica. The working model is that the gold deposits were located within cavern systems somewhere in the original homeland of the Mexica. Unsubstantiated legends claim that de Niza and Estevanico were shown at least one of these sites in 1539 and that a group of Europeans (professional soldiers and German miners) arrived later in the 1540's to quietly harvest gold, not for the King of Spain, but for themselves. Find the entrances to the caverns of Chicomoztoc and you'll find the "Golden Cities".
Coronado, of course, was sandbagged by Marcos de Niza, and the Zuni "Seven Villages" had no bearing on the "Seven Cities" legend that the 1540 expedition was seeking. All it took was a wrong turn up the Rio San Francisco, a dead end at Zuni, and de Niza was sent home "in disgrace" as a liar. Coronado pushed on all the way to Kansas on one of the greatest snipe hunt of all times. De Niza, a Franciscan who previously saw first-hand the treachery of the Conquerors against the indiginous people of Peru re gold, had no intention of contributing to more of the same on the Northern Frontier, thus his betrayal against Coronado. Disinformation is a powerful weapon.
Of greater interest is de Niza's 1539 trip with Estevanico the black Muslim to the "Seven Cities", which are better described as the "Seven Caves", AKA Chicomoztoc, the Place of Origin of the Mexica. The working model is that the gold deposits were located within cavern systems somewhere in the original homeland of the Mexica. Unsubstantiated legends claim that de Niza and Estevanico were shown at least one of these sites in 1539 and that a group of Europeans (professional soldiers and German miners) arrived later in the 1540's to quietly harvest gold, not for the King of Spain, but for themselves. Find the entrances to the caverns of Chicomoztoc and you'll find the "Golden Cities".
the blindbowman
Bronze Member
- Nov 21, 2006
- 1,379
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thank you for shareing the data i agree 100% and i welcome any data as to i just cant get enough lol ...
my father was a historain i grew up with my own collection of 3700 rare books untill a house fire in 2005 , you want to talk about loss . 192 signed copies ...
i saw something i got to check out real fast i well get back soon
my father was a historain i grew up with my own collection of 3700 rare books untill a house fire in 2005 , you want to talk about loss . 192 signed copies ...
i saw something i got to check out real fast i well get back soon
Springfield
Silver Member
RealdeTayopa said:
Hi TT,
Yes, I'm aware of the site. Interesting, but not enough juice to satisfy a seeker of the big secrets out there.
Say, I've been meaning to ask you - are your discoveries in Sonora close to Nino Cochise's Sno-Ta-Hae Apache gold mine above the Nacozaria Este?
Oroblanco
Gold Member
- Jan 21, 2005
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Greetings,
De Niza's tale of his exploration and Cibola ('Relacion')are available in English translation at many libraries; in his own words neither he nor the black slave Estevanico actually entered Cibola but saw it from a distance. Estevanico attempted to enter the town despite being warned by the governor of Cibola not to approach and he was killed for his effort along with many of his followers. De Niza only saw it from a distance. Much of the reported wealth as he told it came from his Amerindian adherants, who may have been exaggerating or even deliberately trying to get de Niza to go away! Unfortunately de Niza passed on these tall tales to the Spanish and the rest as they say is 'history'.
The version which has gold veins in caves is especially difficult to accept, for me. It is exceedingly rare for gold to occur in natural caverns. (I don't know of any such occurrance, however it is possible in certain volcanic areas.) A serious treasure hunter ought to study at least a little geology, which would be helpful in winnowing out 'chaff' from facts. That old saying that "gold is where you find it" and it does occur in all kinds of unlikely locations, but there are geological factors which are fairly true and it is very rare indeed for gold to occur in a natural cave; not that it cannot happen but it is very much NOT the usual way gold gets deposited by mother nature, so a whole gruop of gold-laden caverns would be unlikely to say the least.![:-\](https://www.treasurenet.com/smilies/undecided.gif "Undecided :-\")
Just my opinion here but I have no reason to believe that Coronado lied, and he followed the directions of de Niza, he certainly didn't mask his disappointment at finding Cibola was not rich in anything and made no efforts to return there, which he certainly would have done if it were indeed rich and he had lied to Mendoza about it. Remember that Coronado had de Niza with him when he reached Cibola (also spelled Cevola and thought to come from the Zuni name for the region "Shiwina") so it seems unlikely that de Niza would have been deliberately mis-leading Coronado away from the "real" Cibola, such an act might well have led to his being summarily killed as he nearly was for having lied about the wealth and riches of Cibola. Coronado sent him packing back to Culiacan right after conquering the seven Zuni villages.
I have no wish to discourage anyone who is out searching for Cibola, by all means follow your star - I remain un-convinced however that the tales of de Niza were based on a real gold-rich group of cities.
Oroblanco
De Niza's tale of his exploration and Cibola ('Relacion')are available in English translation at many libraries; in his own words neither he nor the black slave Estevanico actually entered Cibola but saw it from a distance. Estevanico attempted to enter the town despite being warned by the governor of Cibola not to approach and he was killed for his effort along with many of his followers. De Niza only saw it from a distance. Much of the reported wealth as he told it came from his Amerindian adherants, who may have been exaggerating or even deliberately trying to get de Niza to go away! Unfortunately de Niza passed on these tall tales to the Spanish and the rest as they say is 'history'.
The version which has gold veins in caves is especially difficult to accept, for me. It is exceedingly rare for gold to occur in natural caverns. (I don't know of any such occurrance, however it is possible in certain volcanic areas.) A serious treasure hunter ought to study at least a little geology, which would be helpful in winnowing out 'chaff' from facts. That old saying that "gold is where you find it" and it does occur in all kinds of unlikely locations, but there are geological factors which are fairly true and it is very rare indeed for gold to occur in a natural cave; not that it cannot happen but it is very much NOT the usual way gold gets deposited by mother nature, so a whole gruop of gold-laden caverns would be unlikely to say the least.
Just my opinion here but I have no reason to believe that Coronado lied, and he followed the directions of de Niza, he certainly didn't mask his disappointment at finding Cibola was not rich in anything and made no efforts to return there, which he certainly would have done if it were indeed rich and he had lied to Mendoza about it. Remember that Coronado had de Niza with him when he reached Cibola (also spelled Cevola and thought to come from the Zuni name for the region "Shiwina") so it seems unlikely that de Niza would have been deliberately mis-leading Coronado away from the "real" Cibola, such an act might well have led to his being summarily killed as he nearly was for having lied about the wealth and riches of Cibola. Coronado sent him packing back to Culiacan right after conquering the seven Zuni villages.
I have no wish to discourage anyone who is out searching for Cibola, by all means follow your star - I remain un-convinced however that the tales of de Niza were based on a real gold-rich group of cities.
Oroblanco
Springfield
Silver Member
Oro,
Yes, the 'book answers' are available for all who can read - in fact, I'll bet that I have many of the same TH and history books on my shelves that you do. However, keep in mind that the truth is seldom what it seems and what you or I believe has absolutely no bearing on that truth, whether you're talking about mainstream history, speculative TH-ing, religion or current events. Hot tip: don't believe all that you read. I'll say it again ... disinformation is a powerful tool.
Oh, also, I appreciate your advice about learning a little geology, but having worked as an underground miner and mineral property analyst, I can assure you that the geology books only point you to probable locations, not all locations. The proof is in the pudding.
Re 7 Cities lore, the wild card is Marcos de Niza. We know he lied ... but why? You've got to learn to read between the lines on all this TH stuff because the truth we seek is not in books.
Yes, the 'book answers' are available for all who can read - in fact, I'll bet that I have many of the same TH and history books on my shelves that you do. However, keep in mind that the truth is seldom what it seems and what you or I believe has absolutely no bearing on that truth, whether you're talking about mainstream history, speculative TH-ing, religion or current events. Hot tip: don't believe all that you read. I'll say it again ... disinformation is a powerful tool.
Oh, also, I appreciate your advice about learning a little geology, but having worked as an underground miner and mineral property analyst, I can assure you that the geology books only point you to probable locations, not all locations. The proof is in the pudding.
Re 7 Cities lore, the wild card is Marcos de Niza. We know he lied ... but why? You've got to learn to read between the lines on all this TH stuff because the truth we seek is not in books.
Oroblanco
Gold Member
- Jan 21, 2005
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Greetings Springfield,
I was not intending to tell you, personally, to "learn some geology" - there are other readers of these threads (this had over 3500 hits last I looked) and was intended for the beginner who reads our discussions for info and advice. I also did not say that it was "impossible" for gold to occur in a cave, just that it is very unusual, geologically speaking.
Re 7 Cities lore, the wild card is Marcos de Niza. We know he lied ... but why? You've got to learn to read between the lines on all this TH stuff because the truth we seek is not in books.
Reading "between the lines" is a very tricky business, one can very easily be misled by misunderstanding. I have gone on more wild-goose-chases directly because of such reading between the lines and mis-understanding than I would care to bore you with here. This has led me to much more careful reading of the old records, with less theorizing. In the case of the legendary seven lost cities of gold called Cibola, it will take more than knowing that de Niza lied, for the lies we know he told tend to show the whole tale of golden Cibola as fantasy - the only other ancient source I know of is Cabeza de Vaca, and he barely mentions it at all. I am well aware that our history books have plenty of error, but they have plenty correct too. The fact that map makers depicted Cibola in at least three different locations (drifting each time) is a fair indicator that the believers in de Niza kept the myth alive even after Coronado proved it wrong.
I do not wish to be the 'wet blanket' in a discussion of lost treasures and lost mines etc - for there ARE tremendous, rich lost mines which remain un-discovered, and so many lost treasures that it would fill many books just to list them - however we treasure hunters must keep one foot on the ground and choose which legends we will pursue with caution or be willing to spend much time, effort and expense on what might well be false leads.
Let me ask you this Springfield, why do you not believe Coronado found Cibola, having been guided there by de Niza himself?
Oroblanco
PS the 'experts' even find whole cities which were lost for centuries and thousands of years, several found in S America in recent years and even in such populated places as Greece (Helike found a couple years ago) and Egypt (Heracleum also recently found) so it is not impossible that some OTHER place will be found that proves to be Cibola of legend, however I would not bet money on that.
I was not intending to tell you, personally, to "learn some geology" - there are other readers of these threads (this had over 3500 hits last I looked) and was intended for the beginner who reads our discussions for info and advice. I also did not say that it was "impossible" for gold to occur in a cave, just that it is very unusual, geologically speaking.
Re 7 Cities lore, the wild card is Marcos de Niza. We know he lied ... but why? You've got to learn to read between the lines on all this TH stuff because the truth we seek is not in books.
Reading "between the lines" is a very tricky business, one can very easily be misled by misunderstanding. I have gone on more wild-goose-chases directly because of such reading between the lines and mis-understanding than I would care to bore you with here. This has led me to much more careful reading of the old records, with less theorizing. In the case of the legendary seven lost cities of gold called Cibola, it will take more than knowing that de Niza lied, for the lies we know he told tend to show the whole tale of golden Cibola as fantasy - the only other ancient source I know of is Cabeza de Vaca, and he barely mentions it at all. I am well aware that our history books have plenty of error, but they have plenty correct too. The fact that map makers depicted Cibola in at least three different locations (drifting each time) is a fair indicator that the believers in de Niza kept the myth alive even after Coronado proved it wrong.
I do not wish to be the 'wet blanket' in a discussion of lost treasures and lost mines etc - for there ARE tremendous, rich lost mines which remain un-discovered, and so many lost treasures that it would fill many books just to list them - however we treasure hunters must keep one foot on the ground and choose which legends we will pursue with caution or be willing to spend much time, effort and expense on what might well be false leads.
Let me ask you this Springfield, why do you not believe Coronado found Cibola, having been guided there by de Niza himself?
Oroblanco
PS the 'experts' even find whole cities which were lost for centuries and thousands of years, several found in S America in recent years and even in such populated places as Greece (Helike found a couple years ago) and Egypt (Heracleum also recently found) so it is not impossible that some OTHER place will be found that proves to be Cibola of legend, however I would not bet money on that.
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