The Two Soldiers

[sdcfia]

very true joe....most of the dutch hunters have a spewl that they tell the tourists but they never reveal anything of importance to anyone

Of course they don't - it's immutable human nature, same as it was 120 years ago. The genuine trail - if there is one - must be quite overgrown with weeds and deadfalls by now.

 

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[nobodie]

Didn't Julia accuse Dick Homes of stealing the gold from under J.W. Death bed? Am I wrong ? Or did I miss something again.

 

[markmar]

Newspaper reports and a story confirmed by J. Bark.
What can you offer?

The rest .

 

[Cubfan64]

nobodie,

From what I have heard, Clay does not pass anything along that he thinks is important.......even to his "partners". I'm sure they have all believed they were hearing everything he knows, but I doubt it.

Gook luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Only Clay knows for sure, but if I were a betting man I would say that at some point Clay will or has passed along everything he knows or suspects from his lifetime of hunting and what he heard from Brownie to at least someone. I say that for various reasons....

First of all, he obviously had a great deal of respect for Brownie and I suspect at some point he would feel the honorable thing to do would be to pass along his knowledge to someone else in the same way Brownie did for him. I also think he knew awhile back that his time searching in the mountains was over, but from listening to him talk a number of times you can hear in his voice the desire for someone to find the LDM if only to prove once and for all that it is/was real. He's said numerous times that he doesn't regret any of the time he spent in the mountains and the sincerity is clear in his voice - I think someone like him would love to be proved right and if he can have a hand in someone finding the mine, it would be the icing on the cake for him.

Just my opinion of course

 

[markmar]

Homar,

Interesting that someone who, by "his own admission" doesn't read, explains the meaning of Jim Bark's quote to someone like Hal, who's obviously very well read. IMHO, Bark is not saying he's not truthful, only making an observation of what he had observed in that era.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe

Jim Barks's quote is free for interpretation like anyone likes . His words have the same " weight " like all Dutch hunters from his era .

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,
You make a good argument about Dick Holmes not being at J.W. Death bed. It does make me think about it. I may have missed it somewhere, but where did Dick get the information ( clues ) that he passed down to Brownie. All those years he searched Then Brownie passed the clues to Clay and Clay passed them down to his people who are now looking for it . Did I miss it?

nobodie,

I can only offer you an opinion.

If you accept the fact that it was Dick Holmes who owned a share of the Onyx Mine (actually a quarry) and not his father, you eventually reach the conclusion that Dick was not in Phoenix when Waltz passed. Period newspaper articles confirm this and the idea is supported by Bark's letter (and I think Higham?). I have also shared evidence here that clearly points to Dick and Ida owning/selling a share of the the Onyx Mine. So, if Dick was a part owner in the Onyx mine, and he was, the Waltz/Holmes deathbed confession didn't happen.

Bark wrote that Gideon Roberts was alone with Waltz when he died and that at some point, after, he (Bark) saw Gideon and Dick pounding ore together.

If this is true, Gideon would have explained the ore to Dick.
Perhaps more was shared.
Did Gideon hear Waltz's confession then, pass it to Dick in confidence?
It would explain Dick's 17 year search (1892-1908).

Remember, Dick was born in 1865 near Prescott.
He didn't move to Phoenix until 1889, just two years before Waltz died.
Was Waltz still making trips into the range after 89'?
He would have been close to eighty.
His last eight months were spent convalescing in Julia's home.

How about... Waltz leaves Gideon with a "confession", directions to his mine, and possibly some gold ore. Gideon share this with Dick who, years later, passes the story to Brownie when he turns sixteen.
Brownie makes one trip into the range with his father (1908) and then continues to search alone for years until passing the torch to Clay.

Could be.
Could also be a work of fiction or, historical fiction.
Either Dick misrepresented the facts to Brownie or, Brownie intentionally excluded Gideon from the story, replacing him with Dick.

TE Glover might be able to help us understand it.

 

[Hal Croves]

Only Clay knows for sure, but if I were a betting man I would say that at some point Clay will or has passed along everything he knows or suspects from his lifetime of hunting and what he heard from Brownie to at least someone. I say that for various reasons....

First of all, he obviously had a great deal of respect for Brownie and I suspect at some point he would feel the honorable thing to do would be to pass along his knowledge to someone else in the same way Brownie did for him. I also think he knew awhile back that his time searching in the mountains was over, but from listening to him talk a number of times you can hear in his voice the desire for someone to find the LDM if only to prove once and for all that it is/was real. He's said numerous times that he doesn't regret any of the time he spent in the mountains and the sincerity is clear in his voice - I think someone like him would love to be proved right and if he can have a hand in someone finding the mine, it would be the icing on the cake for him.

Just my opinion of course

Great post.

 

[Hal Croves]

Howdy Hermano,

How can you say it is a fact when Jim Bark also wrote this:

"Hunting the Dutchman in not for old men. Nor for old prospectors who sit on park benches in all our western towns - still filled with hope, exaggeration, specimens and nicotine. They must step aside and let the younger generation hunt the Dutchman, chew their own tobacco, tell their own lies and buy or steal their own specimens. Someone, some day will fit the parts together more successfully than we have done. Good luck to him!"

That's his own admission of not being truthful.

Homar

Hermano coazon de oro,

That is a great quote and you make the point that treasure hunters are susceptible to telling the occasional white lie.
Hassayamping.

Regarding the letter, why would Bark need to lie?

Hal

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

As things stand right now, Thomas Glover will be driving down to the Rendezvous on Saturday Oct. 22 with Carolyn and I. We will try to talk Bob into joining us, but that will be getting close to the election, and he will likely be otherwise occupied. For those who have questions, write them down now.

Hope to see many of you there.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

As things stand right now, Thomas Glover will be driving down to the Rendezvous on Saturday Oct. 22 with Carolyn and I. We will try to talk Bob into joining us, but that will be getting close to the election, and he will likely be otherwise occupied. For those who have questions, write them down now.

Hope to see many of you there.

Take care,

Joe

Questions for TE Glover.

1. Why did Brownie write the manuscript?

 

[nobodie]

Hal,
If you are right, and Gideon was at the death bed alone and past the clues to Dick. Then it was Gideon who took the gold. Why Did Julia blame Dick for stealing the gold? I believe the clues are good but are mixed up between the mine and the cache.

 

[coazon de oro]

Hermano coazon de oro,

That is a great quote and you make the point that treasure hunters are susceptible to telling the occasional white lie.
Hassayamping.

Regarding the letter, why would Bark need to lie?

Hal

Some people don't need a reason to lie, they just can't help it. We all know a few who fall into that category. Others lie now and then for a reason, and then there are those of us who never lie. We can't know for sure just how truthful Jim Bark was without ever having knowing him personally.

Picking one quote from Bark, and calling it a fact while disregarding others words like Alkire's is not proving anything. There are many here who think they have cracked something important by brushing aside other evidence even after it's pointed out to them.

Homar

 

[EarnieP]

Hermano coazon de oro,

That is a great quote and you make the point that treasure hunters are susceptible to telling the occasional white lie.
Hassayamping.

Regarding the letter, why would Bark need to lie?

Hal

For others like myself who didn't know the term;

Hassayamping, a Wickenburg word for telling tall tales.

 

[cactusjumper]

Some people don't need a reason to lie, they just can't help it. We all know a few who fall into that category. Others lie now and then for a reason, and then there are those of us who never lie. We can't know for sure just how truthful Jim Bark was without ever having knowing him personally.

Picking one quote from Bark, and calling it a fact while disregarding others words like Alkire's is not proving anything. There are many here who think they have cracked something important by brushing aside other evidence even after it's pointed out to them.

Homar

Homar,

That's a rather casual assessment of what happened with the Alkire story. Hours of research and quite a bit of monetary investment went into disproving that story. What have you invested, time and money wise, in coming to the conclusion that the alleged Alkire words are the true story? Is it possible you just like the story?

Mr. Alkire was a prolific writer when it came to his history in Arizona. He recorded major as well as minor bits of that history and left it all to the Arizona Historical Society in Tucson. For a price, all of those writings are available to you. They would include numerous letters between Frank and his ranch manager. Many of his writings were in the period of Waltz's life and death. He never mentions Waltz, Julia, Dick Holmes or any other of the players in the LDM legend. If you read the entire collection of his documents, you will understand why that is important. That assumes you would take the time and make the effort to read those many documents.

Once you have researched the man's life and come to a conclusion that differs from ours, please post the information, as we did, so that everyone can benefit from your work.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

For those who may not know, when I first started researching Frank Alkire's history, I developed a wonderful contact with a lady in the Arizona Historical Society in Tucson. She copied all of the Alkire documents that had the slighted chance of including any information surrounding the time of Jacob Waltz's death.

I copied and sent those documents to many people who were also interested in the facts about the Alkire story. I also questioned one of Thomas Glover's sources for that story who claimed to have known the Alkire children and talked to them many times. He also said that the story was included in Frank Alkire's writings and he had personally seen the handwritten story by Frank. That is what started my search at the Historical Society.

A lot of time and money was spent getting to the truth of this story.

Good luck to all,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar,

That's a rather casual assessment of what happened with the Alkire story. Hours of research and quite a bit of monetary investment went into disproving that story. What have you invested, time and money wise, in coming to the conclusion that the alleged Alkire words are the true story? Is it possible you just like the story?

Mr. Alkire was a prolific writer when it came to his history in Arizona. He recorded major as well as minor bits of that history and left it all to the university in Tucson. For a price, all of those writings are available to you. They would include numerous letters between Frank and his ranch manager. Many of his writings were in the period of Waltz's life and death. He never mentions Waltz, Julia, Dick Holmes or any other of the players in the LDM legend. If you read the entire collection of his documents, you will understand why that is important. That assumes you would take the time and make the effort to read those many documents.

Once you have researched the man's life and come to a conclusion that differs from ours, please post the information, as we did, so that everyone can benefit from your work.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Howdy Joe,

I fail to see what you proved. Your conclusion is really just an assumption. All the research, and money you spent doesn't change that.

Homar

 

[cactusjumper]

Howdy Joe,

I fail to see what you proved. Your conclusion is really just an assumption. All the research, and money you spent doesn't change that.

Homar

Homar,

I proved that, through historical research, it could be shown that it was very unlikely that the accepted story of Frank Alkire being present around the time of Jacob Waltz's death was true. You have shown thru no research, whatsoever, that you believe the story could be true.

Since there is no one here today that was alive and present at Waltz's death, we must rely on the written records of the time. Since you don't read such things, you must rely on what you have heard from others. Good luck with that method.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar,

I proved that, through historical research, it could be shown that it was very unlikely that the accepted story of Frank Alkire being present around the time of Jacob Waltz's death was true. You have shown thru no research, whatsoever, that you believe the story could be true.

Since there is no one here today that was alive and present at Waltz's death, we must rely on the written records of the time. Since you don't read such things, you must rely on what you have heard from others. Good luck with that method.

Joe Ribaudo

No Joe, I am not relying on anything that anyone else wrote, only your own words. You expect everything to be written, and just because you couldn't find Alkire himself mentioning Jacob Waltz, you assume he was no where around thus the story was made up. You wrote:

"I believe the story attributed to Frank Alkire is questionable. That and five bucks will buy me an average cup of coffee. On the other hand, the story could be true.....in every detail."

Since you state that the story could be true, you are admitting that you have no solid proof.

Homar

 

[Old]

Homar, amigo, you are ignoring the mountain of evidence that Alkire was no where near Jacob Waltz when the flood hit, nor when Waltz died. That mountain of evidence didn't appear magically out of thin air or someone setting behind a keyboard saying "I think so" or geez, that fits what I think so I'll buy into it.

It took months of unbiased tedious investigation to boil down all the known events in both Waltz life (and death) and Alkire's life to be able to bring their timeline to the table for you to judge. Couple that with Joe's considerable work in reading, line by line, Alkire's papers, a stack of single sheets three feet tall, looking for any mention of ANY of the players names in Alkire considerable writings. There are none.

Alkire had a job to do, a ranch to run, cattle to brand and sell and October was the time when it was done. His family had already been hoodwinked by being an absentee rancher owner. Do you really think he would be lollygagging around Julia's doorstep while other ranchers sorted his cattle?? Those cattle meant his earning for the year and what would take him and his new family through the winter. He wasn't standing outside Julia's house (yes, house) waiting to pay 50 cents to get his turn to hear a dying man's delirium. Only a fool would do that, and Alkire was no man's fool.

Those are facts, real facts. Not wishful thinking or campfire stories for wide-eyed little children.

What part of "you have been had, again" and by the same set of culprits are you not understanding? Dr. Glover and Mr. Corbin caught on quick. Get up to speed on what really was going on and you will see the shear lunacy of this story.

 

[cactusjumper]

No Joe, I am not relying on anything that anyone else wrote, only your own words. You expect everything to be written, and just because you couldn't find Alkire himself mentioning Jacob Waltz, you assume he was no where around thus the story was made up. You wrote:

"I believe the story attributed to Frank Alkire is questionable. That and five bucks will buy me an average cup of coffee. On the other hand, the story could be true.....in every detail."

Since you state that the story could be true, you are admitting that you have no solid proof.

Homar

Homar,

Anything is "possible", but there is considerable evidence, as Lynda has written, that Alkire was elsewhere when Waltz was dying. It's also "possible" the Easter Bunny is real, but only in the minds of uninformed children. You would need to read the evidence that is available to form an educated opinion of the truth of the Frank Alkire story. If the only LDM book you have ever felt the need to read was Robert Joseph Allen's, you have all the "facts" you can handle.

Take care,

Joe