The Wagoner Lost Ledge

[somehiker]

Always is a misunderstanding. I never asked from anybody else to do a research for me. If there is anyone, I ask to write it right now.
If you are not able or capable to understand what I write in my posts, just ask to explain it for you with another words.
You are judging me using your own experience on GE images and using your mindset , tactic which is totally wrong.

I believe you accuse my posts, just to keep people away from the sites I am writing of. Look to your research and leave me to write what I like, wrong or right. You and every one can't accuse someone without you can prove he's wrong.

I'll leave it up to Loke to clear up the question as to whether or not you asked him to check out the place for which you gave him co-ordinates. And your belief that I criticize your posts because I want to keep anyone away is wrong. Frankly, as I have previously said to you in a private conversation, I have no interest in what you think you have found via GE, and that we are obviously far apart in both location and theory. It's not our job to prove you wrong. Quite frankly, it's all on you to prove you are right, using whatever you can find and personally photograph on your sites as evidence. That will, as I believe I and others have made very clear, take much more than crops from GE or other people's photos. Otherwise you are just playing video games.

 

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[markmar]

I'll leave it up to Loke to clear up the question as to whether or not you asked him to check out the place for which you gave him co-ordinates. And your belief that I criticize your posts because I want to keep anyone away is wrong. Frankly, as I have previously said to you in a private conversation, I have no interest in what you think you have found via GE, and that we are obviously far apart in both location and theory. It's not our job to prove you wrong. Quite frankly, it's all on you to prove you are right, using whatever you can find and personally photograph on your sites as evidence. That will, as I believe I and others have made very clear, take much more than crops from GE or other people's photos. Otherwise you are just playing video games.

You wrote is not your ( plural, like you are a selected leader ) job to prove me wrong and this is what someone else can deduce as you can't.
Here in this forum and out there, are people who know what they are talking about, and they are not in this forum just for fishing info.
Of course many are claiming how they are coming to the Superstitions just to see different species of butterflies or to see different ancient dwellings, and they are doing that for over twenty years. Oh yes, of course, I believe it.

 

[Loke]

Loke

The reason of that post in which I wrote how I have given wrong coords, was to stop you to go there. Also the coords I have given were very close to the location from the pic above. Not a wild goose chase but a sign you are realy interested. Call me excentrical but is the way I work.
If you would be realy interested, you would wrote me a pm in which you would ask your rights, like you did here in open forum. Now you have the picture of the site and is to your decision to prove me wrong.

I have to close this post because I must to put someone on Ignore option.

You are going about it a completely wrong way! If you want someone (a bit nearer than you) to check out an area for you - just say so. Do not pretend to know where it is and tempt somebody else into the area - you might send them into serious trouble. Because of your somewhat 'devious' attempt - you will not score high in my regard. As I previously stated - if I happen to be in that particular area, I _might_ have a look at it (_might_ being the operative word). As for 'rights', you are barking up the wrong tree and you have just convinced me to never look for it where you indicate. What friggin' rights are you talking about? The honour of knowing where it is? Who the heck cares? It IS in the wilderness area - so no dice!

 

[arcana-exploration]

Well said Mike. There is no way I could have been assured the mine in that GE crop I posted wasn't just another outcropping of basalt surrounded by a hill of eroded tuffa, were I to rely on sat views and Wagoner's description alone. I dare say even Waltz or Wagoner, were we able to bring either one back from the dead and park them in front of a laptop, would have been able to find what they did without sacrificing a lot of boot leather as well. Does anybody think the Julia and Rhiney would have been able to find old Jake's mine, if only they could have looked for it on GE back then

We have dozens of significant entities, at our site, most of which you cannot see on GE. The couple things you can kinda see are inconclusive unless you have boots on the ground, and even then they look different in person. We did not discover what we have with GE, it can kind of give you a lay of the land, but nobody can confirm a find, of any manor with just Google Earth. GE is a tool, a pair of binoculars to where you think you may go, but you need live eyes close up on the ground and anyone who says otherwise has never been out there, and should not try to make a case to the contrary. If there was ever a place for armchair QBs, this ain't one of um. Jeff.

 

[Hal Croves]

OK - I _know_ that this is strictly _not_ the LDM, but it _is_ in the Superstitions Mountains and it well may be connected to the LDM.

I am starting this to see if somebody may have some info on the subject - other than the links I am posting - so here we go:

(Thanks to Roy/Oro for these two)


Now - the first link (TomK) talks about gold in white quartz while the two last ones talk about gold in _rose quartz_

You guys be the judge - is there anything in this or is it just another blind alley (branch) in the search of the LDM??

Per

Loke,

Something other than the links that you posted.

Fredrick W Mullins, the stage driver (b. 17 March 1849 d. 21 February 1921) who shared the Wagoner story was a devout Mormon. He married Sarah Melissa Willis Mullins (b.27 May 1852 d. 11 April 1914) and together they had one daughter, Nellie Elmeda Mullins Hunsaker (b. 1872 d. 13 January 1953). I have not seen the evidence that supports T.E. Glover's claim that Mullin's had two sons, but multiple wives and many children were not unusual for "believers".

Nellie married Edgar Hunsaker, Bishop of the Alma ward (Mesa) and they raised nine children. Anyway, Edgar's father (Alexander Beckstead Hunsaker b. 19 May 1852 d. 10 June 1910) known as "Dad" Hunsaker, was himself a Bishop (Alma ward) for fifteen years until 1907(?). "Dad" Hunsaker (born in Utah) married Melissa Johnson in 1869 and the couple eventually moved to Arizona (Apache County) in 1884. They homesteaded just west of Mesa in 1886 and had eleven children, Edger being the second son.

About "Dad" Hunsaker... "He at first engaged in stock raising and farming in the Four Peaks and Superstition Mountains and later he conducted a stage line between Phoenix and Mesa. Fifteen years ago (1885) he engaged in the mercantile business in Mesa and remained in it until two years ago." (1908). "Dad" was well respected "There was never a more widely beloved man than "Dad" Hunsaker. Soft hardheartedness was his chief weakness but he did not allow that to interfere with his official conduct: It was his private business that suffered." EDIT: "Dad's " mercantile business was destroyed by fire just after the insurance expired, the loss was total.

The Hunsaker family history is well documented. I take from this that as a cattleman, "Dad" Hunsaker was well familiar with the Superstitions. His son (Bishop) Edgar married Fred Mullins daughter and even presided over Mullins funeral. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to believe that Mullins confided in "Dad' or Edger. Anyone looking for more information about Wagoners Lost Ledge, Edgar and Nellie's decedents may have something to share. And if you want to dig, the Mesa Arizona Temple 480 833 1211 may prove useful.

I hope this helps.

Fred Mullins: (photo credit pending)



“Dad” Hunsaker: (credit pending)

 

[Loke]

Loke,

Something other than the links that you posted.

Fredrick W Mullins, the stage driver (b. 17 March 1849 d. 21 February 1921) who shared the Wagoner story was a devout Mormon. He married Sarah Melissa Willis Mullins (b.27 May 1852 d. 11 April 1914) and together they had one daughter, Nellie Elmeda Mullins Hunsaker (b. 1872 d. 13 January 1953). I have not seen the evidence that supports T.E. Glover's claim that Mullin's had two sons, but multiple wives and many children were not unusual for "believers".

Nellie married Edgar Hunsaker, Bishop of the Alma ward (Mesa) and they raised nine children. Anyway, Edgar's father (Alexander Beckstead Hunsaker b. 19 May 1852 d. 10 June 1910) known as "Dad" Hunsaker, was himself a Bishop (Alma ward) for fifteen years until 1907(?). "Dad" Hunsaker (born in Utah) married Melissa Johnson in 1869 and the couple eventually moved to Arizona (Apache County) in 1884. They homesteaded just west of Mesa in 1886 and had eleven children, Edger being the second son.

About "Dad" Hunsaker... "He at first engaged in stock raising and farming in the Four Peaks and Superstition Mountains and later he conducted a stage line between Phoenix and Mesa. Fifteen years ago (1885) he engaged in the mercantile business in Mesa and remained in it until two years ago." (1908). "Dad" was well respected "There was never a more widely beloved man than "Dad" Hunsaker. Soft hardheartedness was his chief weakness but he did not allow that to interfere with his official conduct: It was his private business that suffered." EDIT: "Dad's " mercantile business was destroyed by fire just after the insurance expired, the loss was total.

The Hunsaker family history is well documented. I take from this that as a cattleman, "Dad" Hunsaker was well familiar with the Superstitions. His son (Bishop) Edgar married Fred Mullins daughter and even presided over Mullins funeral. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to believe that Mullins confided in "Dad' or Edger. Anyone looking for more information about Wagoners Lost Ledge, Edgar and Nellie's decedents may have something to share. And if you want to dig, the Mesa Arizona Temple 480 833 1211 may prove useful.

I hope this helps.

Fred Mullins: (photo credit pending)

View attachment 1750184

“Dad” Hunsaker: (credit pending)

View attachment 1750185

View attachment 1750186

Thank you - that was more than I managed to dig up!

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Loke,

Something other than the links that you posted.

Fredrick W Mullins, the stage driver (b. 17 March 1849 d. 21 February 1921) who shared the Wagoner story was a devout Mormon. He married Sarah Melissa Willis Mullins (b.27 May 1852 d. 11 April 1914) and together they had one daughter, Nellie Elmeda Mullins Hunsaker (b. 1872 d. 13 January 1953). I have not seen the evidence that supports T.E. Glover's claim that Mullin's had two sons, but multiple wives and many children were not unusual for "believers".

....< SNIP > .....

Here ya go Hal...there are two sons.

View attachment 1750269

 

[Hal Croves]

Here ya go Hal...there are two sons.

View attachment 1750269

There it is. Honestly, Mormon traditions are beyond my understanding which makes researching their family histories more difficult than should be. The 1910 census has Jesse and Williams age wrong. It should be 35 & 21, according to their headstones. Also, William was born in 1889 but is missing from the 1900 census. ??

William died in 1918, three days after his wife Ina, both from pneumonia. And it looks like Fred and Sarah lost a few kids, or they are at least missing from the later census.

T.E. Glover wrote “Nor is it likely there was a Pinal-Mesa stage running in 1890s.”
Something worth researching.

Storms Wagoner Map might be a copy of one that he was shown. That’s what I would want to see, the original.

Nice post PotBelly Jim.

 

[Hal Croves]

A quick search gives the story some legs. Date 1900.




https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...age&y=17&x=20&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good morning Hal Croves: Great job in researching Fred Mullins. Many thanks. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Hal Croves]

Good morning Hal Croves: Great job in researching Fred Mullins. Many thanks. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Much appreciated sir.

 

[Blindbowman]

LOKE: you look to be very interested in this wagoner story , I would like to give you a chance to locate it ...here is what most don't know .. the LDM vane runs wild and skips threw the mountains like a cute Swedish school girl, it goes up and down threw the mountains like a hot knife threw home made butter .. you see the Hoya on the Peralta Ruth map you should be on the north side of Miners Needle near heart Mountain .. across from crystal springs east of the south end of bluff springs , how do I know this the man in the 1959 that saw the Jesuit gold statue walked 27 % of a mile then turn east to ward crystal springs and was found in that area ..if want to locate this site . draw a line from crystal springs to 1/2 mile north of the small quadrangle where the Peralta camp site was ...this will tell you where the tunnel was and you can use this to locate the Hoya and the wagoner sites . now the fault line runs off to the east northeast but as it goes up and down the mountains it fades to the east each time it comes back down .I can help plot it but you have to search and remember what I am telling you ..see the Hoya is on the other side of the ridge line if you stand at crystal springs and look south and after the vane runs up and hit the surface it at the Hoya it goes back down at a step dive and comes out a few hundred feet above the crystal springs area ...if you look up ward you will see a nice wide canyon that climbs up the back side of heart mountain look on the right side as it is going up to the top of the ridge , about 200 feet from the top ridge now don't think you mist it there are a few other canyons that run down the back side of that ridge .. you don't want to be fooled . it is in that first canyon ,if you have any problems finding it take pictures and I will show you where to look ...I know it comes out in that area . I tracked the vane over 35 miles before it faded out ...I almost for got something that will help you a lot when the vane reaches the surface look for clear quartz crystals , we all know what waltz gold looked like in white quartz it was in hard rock ore and running under the surface about 15 ft down .., when the vane is lower down and is cut away it is often in pink quartz or rose quartz ...

 

[Blindbowman]

from the patter I lay out in detail if the vane went deeper it would most likely be found in poor grades of quartz or even harder rock or just fade away ..

 

[markmar]

Someone who is looking at the Wagoner map, is wondering what that question mark/sign " ? " could means. The logic says how is a landmark which looks like the question mark, and the truth is this.


Wagoner used that landmark to pinpoint his gold outcrop because is above and near by. In reality the question mark landmark has not a dot like usualy a question mark has, but Wagoner used the dot in his map to show the exact location of the diggings.
Here is a real picture which was modified and shows in the small square the question mark landmark and the location of the mine. Enjoy

 

[Blindbowman]

did you know the stage couch driver was a fill in driver he was not the normal driver for the stage couch ... when Wagoner was found . The driver was a famous man before finding Wagoner .. just saying ..in fact the driver had worked for the Peralta & Gonzales in the Peralta mines and knew Wagoner was not talking about the Peralta mines and he tried to make sure no one could locate Wagoner's site ..

 

[markmar]

The Wagoner mine is exactly where the map shows. The map and the description of the route when Wagoner found the outcrop, show where the spot could be.
Also the Wagoner mine is not on the same geologic fault with the LDM, but with another three mines which are at a triple distance from the Wagoner mine than they are from the first to the third. This geologic fault runs SE-NW like the most faults in the Superstitions until intersects another region with different geologic faults that run SW-NE. The LDM is exactly on the turn of these faults, on a S-N fault.

 

[Blindbowman]

The Wagoner mine is exactly where the map shows. The map and the description of the route when Wagoner found the outcrop, show where the spot could be.
Also the Wagoner mine is not on the same geologic fault with the LDM, but with another three mines which are at a triple distance from the Wagoner mine than they are from the first to the third. This geologic fault runs SE-NW like the most faults in the Superstitions until intersects another region with different geologic faults that run SW-NE. The LDM is exactly on the turn of these faults, on a S-N fault.

then why do you claim it ...lol

 

[Loke]

The Wagoner mine is exactly where the map shows. The map and the description of the route when Wagoner found the outcrop, show where the spot could be.
Also the Wagoner mine is not on the same geologic fault with the LDM, but with another three mines which are at a triple distance from the Wagoner mine than they are from the first to the third. This geologic fault runs SE-NW like the most faults in the Superstitions until intersects another region with different geologic faults that run SW-NE. The LDM is exactly on the turn of these faults, on a S-N fault.

After you quoting me the coords, wilfully giving me the wrong ones so I could report back ... you're on your own. I have no interest in your theories.

As for BB - I _might_ take you up on your offer, but ... if I am ever in that 'neighbourhood', yup, I'll have a look but it would be more out of interest than anything else - not much you can do about it being solidly within the the wilderness area. That being said, I _am_ interested in it, but it is not high on my priorities - again because of where it is.

 

[Blindbowman]

Ok . to my under standing Wagoner never had a real mine . he found a out cropping ,where a vane brakes the surface .. the vane was some what rich in rose quartz and wire gold ...the vane reach the surface in two places . one about 150 ft from the canyon floor and the other almost un reach able some 200ft up the canyon wall ...yes I do know where it is and that's not up for debate .. the as I under stand what I have seen .. the vane dose not run across the mountain range like most fault lines do . the early stage of fault lines run as you stated ,above . from SW to Ne the LDM vane dose not run on a S-N fault line as you stated . in fact the much older fault line was forced with the Earth's crust movement and is limited to the shifting of the top 1000 ft of upper earth's Crust .where it goes beyond that no one really knows ... now Wagoner's out cropping a few miles away and northeast of the LDM but they are in fact on the same fault line but the lower Wagoner out cropping is some 500 ft lower then the LDM , this defend what type of Quartz was created vs temp...as you well know the steam pressure and the rock it passes threw define what the quartz well become .. and often how fast the quartz cools ..to the open air where the out cropping takes place . but some out cropping's are covered over and cool much slower changing how the quartz reacts to the cooling stages ...the vane the Dutch is on is shedder into a few different directions and not in a straight line as it should be . the vane was about 16 miles long and now it skips threw the area some times short length pieces of the vane are a few 100 ft other times the hit the surface in out cropping's as much as 1/8th of a mile from where they should have been ... that's my take on the two sites and yes I found both of them and have 16 sites in all located ...and I will say it one more time IMHO the LDM is not the mother load of this vane , the mother load is created the Cibola legend and is not the LDM or any of the Peralta or Wagoner sites , I found it and had no idea what it was when I found it ...I can say one thing . when the vent blew it covered about 25 Acers in fine gold dust and wind has blown that dust around for more then 500 years now but if you were me you could learn some things and make logical data from knowing these things ... that's the end of my replies I have a lot going on these days and you guys have your own search ... I leave it this site to those still in the hunt ...

 

[markmar]

After you quoting me the coords, wilfully giving me the wrong ones so I could report back ... you're on your own. I have no interest in your theories.

As for BB - I _might_ take you up on your offer, but ... if I am ever in that 'neighbourhood', yup, I'll have a look but it would be more out of interest than anything else - not much you can do about it being solidly within the the wilderness area. That being said, I _am_ interested in it, but it is not high on my priorities - again because of where it is.

The irony is how you write what I have told you, without to know if the coords are accurate or not.