Treasure Trove on public land

[maipenrai]

Majolle, Im not sure how someone can buy a new truck every three years, pay cash, and the dealer does not report him to the IRS, which I think they are required to do, but then, I could be wrong about that.

 

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[cudamark]

Why in the world would a car dealer want to do that to one of his best customers? I'd invite him out to dinner instead.....my treat!

 

[Captain_Ahab]

I know this thread has been dormant but I was curious about this type of thing as well. If you go and sell a gold coin (speaking of which, I don't even know where you would do that? Can you sell gold coins on ebay?) they don't really have a right to ask you where you got it do they? I mean if not then no big deal. But if the government got involved, and you really found it on public land, I'm assuming you can just say you found it on your property? Would they be able to tax you for income if the coin was found on your property? Or could you just say you bought it privately a number of years ago? I don't know what the best course of action would be.

I wish I actually was in this dilemma haha!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I know this thread has been dormant but I was curious about this type of thing as well. If you go and sell a gold coin (speaking of which, I don't even know where you would do that? Can you sell gold coins on ebay?) they don't really have a right to ask you where you got it do they? I mean if not then no big deal. But if the government got involved, and you really found it on public land, I'm assuming you can just say you found it on your property? Would they be able to tax you for income if the coin was found on your property? Or could you just say you bought it privately a number of years ago? I don't know what the best course of action would be.

I wish I actually was in this dilemma haha!

captain ahab, I'll take a stab at your questions. Yes, you can sell gold coins on ebay. Go take a look there at the current listings, and ... at any given time .... you'll see no shortage of people buying and selling gold coins on ebay. So why would you think for a minute that you "can't sell gold coins" ? And no, no one asks "where did you get this coin?" I mean, sure, they COULD ask you that, but why would they? And even if they did, well .... you inherited it from your dad who was a collector, RIGHT? I mean, people routinely buy/sell/trade/collect gold coins (and coins of all sorts), so why would you think this would be some sort of pressing concern, any-more-so than if you sold a collectable piece of furniture, a used car, a stamp collection, etc... ? No one cares. I mean, the person buying probably doesn't even know you found it with a metal detector anyhow. And even if he did get wind of that, and asks, well... you found it in your back-yard, right? And heck, even if you said it was found in a park, or school yard, or on the beach, etc... ("public land"), since when is that wrong to have found something valuable to begin with? Detectors are a common site on "public land", and since when can you "not find something good/valuable" there? If that were a given, then ... why are those people swinging detectors? Just to get arm exercise ?

As for the "tax" part of your question: Technically, yes. (well ... you asked). Any "income" (when something is turned to cash) technically must be reported on your income tax. No matter how negligable. Ie.: if you're walking down the street and find a dollar, you must report the additional dollar on your tax returns.

Now *realistically* I don't know of anyone who does. If a person made their living treasure-hunting, then I guess a person's conscience might compell him to report his income. But realistically, smaller amounts like this (and baby-sitting income for teenagers, etc..., and the dollar found on the street) is usually considered innocuous and silly to deal with.

 

[mercury1]

captain ahab, I'll take a stab at your questions. Yes, you can sell gold coins on ebay. Go take a look there at the current listings, and ... at any given time .... you'll see no shortage of people buying and selling gold coins on ebay. So why would you think for a minute that you "can't sell gold coins" ? And no, no one asks "where did you get this coin?" I mean, sure, they COULD ask you that, but why would they? And even if they did, well .... you inherited it from your dad who was a collector, RIGHT? I mean, people routinely buy/sell/trade/collect gold coins (and coins of all sorts), so why would you think this would be some sort of pressing concern, any-more-so than if you sold a collectable piece of furniture, a used car, a stamp collection, etc... ? No one cares. I mean, the person buying probably doesn't even know you found it with a metal detector anyhow. And even if he did get wind of that, and asks, well... you found it in your back-yard, right? And heck, even if you said it was found in a park, or school yard, or on the beach, etc... ("public land"), since when is that wrong to have found something valuable to begin with? Detectors are a common site on "public land", and since when can you "not find something good/valuable" there? If that were a given, then ... why are those people swinging detectors? Just to get arm exercise ?

As for the "tax" part of your question: Technically, yes. (well ... you asked). Any "income" (when something is turned to cash) technically must be reported on your income tax. No matter how negligable. Ie.: if you're walking down the street and find a dollar, you must report the additional dollar on your tax returns.

Now *realistically* I don't know of anyone who does. If a person made their living treasure-hunting, then I guess a person's conscience might compell him to report his income. But realistically, smaller amounts like this (and baby-sitting income for teenagers, etc..., and the dollar found on the street) is usually considered innocuous and silly to deal with.

The government always wants their share. I'm not an eBay user but it seems like if you sell a gold coin on eBay, there is a record of it that the government could use when they audit your taxes. Seems like the best way to sell would be if you could find a buyer who pays cash.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

The government always wants their share. I'm not an eBay user but it seems like if you sell a gold coin on eBay, there is a record of it that the government could use when they audit your taxes. Seems like the best way to sell would be if you could find a buyer who pays cash.

Yes, you would *think* so. Records of "sold" items are no secret on Ebay. And from user's names it wouldn't be hard to deduce actual persons. Even though buyers/sellers hide behind made-up names there, yet ...... the IRS could simply go on, buy something from the person, and then have record of name and mailing address. Or sometimes people simply put their names on there (especially if they have a "store" there). Or the IRS could simply serve search warrants on Ebay Co. to fork over the names of every buyer and seller.

Sure, anything's possible. So too could the IRS go after each of us who spend the clad we find. They could follow us around, make note of when you dig a quarter, and then check with your year-end taxes to see if you reported it or not.

But reality is, that they're NOT doing all the above things. To this day, it's still the "honor system".

And when you find a gold coin, it's not considered "income" till you sold it. Thus technically, I wonder if all the clad we save up and eventually roll (or take to coin-star machines, etc...) that ... technically, even the clad is not considered "income" till you've actually used it. Afterall, just like the gold coins, maybe you just enjoy accumulating clad for your clad collection, with no intent to ever actually buy anything with it.

 

[doc-d]

Never say anthing, always keep your mouth shut.....to about everyone..............

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Tom in CA:

I just came across your post.

Have you read The Man From the Cave by Colin Fletcher (1981)? Perhaps this is the incident you wrote about. I believe the book is about a find in Nevada, however, not Death Valley.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

2.0: Looks like there were at least two trunks found - one hoax (Death Valley) and one real (Nevada).

http://www.deathvalley.com/gold/goldarticle13.shtml

 

[Old Bookaroo]

cedrusdeodara:

I recommend you read The Treasure Hunter's Manual #7, by "Karl von Mueller."

You'll get a tremendous education in a hurry. And many of your questions will be quickly answered.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Tom_in_CA]

thanx for the info old bookaroo. yes that appears to be the story I was talking about, and yes I recall that skeptics doubted the authenticity, but no, I had not read the conclusion of the matter. So thanx for the link!

But, well, the "point remains" though. Even though *this* particular item might have been someone's hoax, yet..... truth be told, it's still relevant to the issue of laws/legal things. Because I'm sure that others have picked up stuff from various public lands. And even though that guys stuff turned out to be some sort of hoax, yet you can see that it doesn't take a rocket scientist, to see how he got reprimanded, and conclude that the same logic could apply to singular coins, etc.....

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Captain Ahab:

I am not a CPA but my answer would be "Yes." If you find something of value then you would owe Federal (and, perhaps, state) income tax on it.

One issue might be when is the "taxable event" - when you find it, or when you convert it to cash.

Can you deduct the costs of finding it? Depends on if your th'ing is a business or a hobby.

You could tell the Service you'd owned the coin for years - in which case you'd tax on your profit (what you sold it for less the "basis" - basically what you'd paid for it back in the day).

Bottom Line: Pay your taxes and sleep easy.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Tom in CA:

A public lands find is a toughie. If you report it you'll probably lose it. If you don't, you'll probably be risking a felony or something equally serious.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

PS: The situation reminds me of when I was told several years ago by a treasure diver he'd cut a deal with a Colonel in Haiti to dive on a shallow water galleon wreck down there. I said "Great - you'll probably only have two problems. If you don't find anything - or if you do."

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Tom in CA:

A public lands find is a toughie. If you report it you'll probably lose it. If you don't, you'll probably be risking a felony or something equally serious.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

PS: The situation reminds me of when I was told several years ago by a treasure diver he'd cut a deal with a Colonel in Haiti to dive on a shallow water galleon wreck down there. I said "Great - you'll probably only have two problems. If you don't find anything - or if you do."

bookaroo, as for reporting taxable income on our finds, and/or failure to give all our finds to the government (afterall, they're "found on govt. land"), you say:

"..... If you don't, you'll probably be risking a felony or something equally serious....."

Am I understanding you correctly?

Ok, if so, then do this: take a quick look at ANY md'ing web-forums "found" sections. You know, the show-&-tell boasting sections where we all love to show & tell our latest finds and exploits. You will see no shortage of rings, coins, goodies, etc.... Right? Afterall, that's our hobby, and we, just like a fisherman, love to show off our trophy finds for our fellow hobbyists to oogle over. Right?

Those who've made such posts often-time even saying right there "found on the beach" or "found in the park" or "found in the sandbox at the school", etc..., Right? Ok: Do you think all those people are turning them in to the park's office, school district, beach ranger, etc... Ie.: "Hi, I found this in *your* park, thus it belongs to the taxpayer, and wasn't meant for my personal enrichment and fun, since it probably violates the harvesting and collecting type verbage" Then they dutifully handed it over to the proper govt. authority, right? Or if not, (and if they kept it for their own profit and gain), do you think they subsequently reported it on their taxes?

Assuming you agree that: a) no ones turning in their pennies and rings, and b) none of them are reporting it on their taxes either, then: c) do you REALLY think this is "risking a felony or something equally serious"? I'm not talking in "technical possibilities" (because sure, *anything's possible*), but rather, I'm asking it "actual reality" ?

Me thinks that the average person (even the tax collector and parks/beach keeper) could care less, and assumes it's an innocent finder's keepers game.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Tom in CA:

I don't spend much time worrying about what other people do or do not do until it has a direct impact on my life.

You may recall the original question concerned a Big Casino - not pocket change and lost rings in the playground.

People who don't pay their Federal income taxes are building on a foundation of sand. They work hard, of course. But one day it can all be taken away. I don't find that to be a long-term winning proposition. If others are ok with it - well, that would be up to them and not me.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

You may recall the original question concerned a Big Casino - not pocket change and lost rings in the playground.

People who don't pay their Federal income taxes are building on a foundation of sand. They work hard, of course. But one day it can all be taken away. .....

Yes, big ticket items attract attention, and then uncle sam wants his cut. Like, no one ever cared when the individual hobbyist in FL plied the beach for loose change and an occasional old coin or ring, right? But when some like Mel Fisher finds the mother load (millions of dollars) then all of the sudden, the state starts in with "give us all of that, since it was found in State-of-Florida waters", blah blah. Notice that even though the same logic applies to individual coins and rings of those persons on the beach, yet no one really cared to pursue it, till it was "millions of dollars".

Still though, the type laws that were dragged out to go after Mel Fisher (and ended up in courts, etc...) CAN INDEED apply to the guy who finds a single silver quarter. It's just that "no one cares" (until you ask that is, so .... don't ask )

 

[Ronzie]

Let's say someone finds a treasure like Forrest Fenn's and it was on either public or government land.
The only thing the government would get is two middle fingers if it were me. Figuratively of course, as I'd say jack.

 

[gfordtx]

I have location information on some cache's, and when I get the correct detector to detect them at the depth they are said to be buried, and recover them I have an agreement with the landowner for a percentage and he has a broker for the coins that will be stated at the value when buried in the 1800's.... aka 4,000 x $20 = Taxable value versus 4,000 x $1,500 = my profit in swiss bank. The exact location on what private property will never be released by me and the owner.

 

[dennco2000]

I have and will continue to donate some of finds that are significant to local museums and history. They give me a signed deed of gift and another letter saying how they discourage casual treasure hunting and how it would be better to volunteer at the research center.... except there are no currents digs going on because there is no grant money LOL.
I always tell them in a polite way to stuff it, had I not found it the artifact most likely would have rotted away or been paved over LOL.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

I have location information on some cache's, and when I get the correct detector to detect them at the depth they are said to be buried, and recover them I have an agreement with the landowner for a percentage and he has a broker for the coins that will be stated at the value when buried in the 1800's.... aka 4,000 x $20 = Taxable value versus 4,000 x $1,500 = my profit in swiss bank. The exact location on what private property will never be released by me and the owner.

Ah yes gfordtx, but we already know who you are, and will turn you in to the IRS for tax evasion. Tsk Tsk. You can't hide now. We know you're a prison gaurd in Texas, and it wouldn't be hard for us to subpoena records from T'net to get your name and, and trace you back to your address and computer. Your goose is cooked when the IRS learns you put the $ in a swiss bank account to avoid taxes. Also when the IRS finds out you incorrectly listed their FACE value ($20 each) rather than their REAL value $1.5k to $2k minimum each)......... oh my goodness. They're going to be saving a bed space for you in the prison you used to work at. Oh me oh my

 

[toe2short]

732-767-9999 LOL