True Spelling

[cptbild]

I guess that everyone knows that out in the Southwest due to the Sp/Mexican influence,
Words are spelled one way and prononced another way!
As it is in most countries!
In The SW ....
Words with "LL" are pronounced , w/o The "LL" portion of the word ..
It's silent !
As The "LLano River" in Texas .. it's pronounced, "Ano"
OR!
"The Caballo Mnts" in New Mexico " "ka by oo" or, "ka vie oo"
Js & Gs are prononced with an "H" sound
The Az. Town of "AJO" for instance:
Is prononuced "ah ho", NOT! "AH JOE" !
Or
The Gila Monster (a large poisonous lizard) Is, "He La", not, "Gee la" !

What the early TH'er writers did , was to spell the Name of this Famous Mine/mission

Like it sounded !
Tay O pah
Not as it is written.....
OR!
AS it is Pronouced by the Native speaking peoples!

Teopa

Break out your Mexico Topographic Maps and you'll find the Word ...
One is a modern Day Peak, one is a Spanish mission etc....

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=cptbild ]
Words with "LL" are pronounced , w/o The "LL" portion of the word ..
It's silent !
*******************

OOOPS BILL, the LL is always pronounced as "Y" .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As The "LLano River" in Texas .. it's pronounced, "Ano"
**********************************************

"LL" has a pronunciation of "Y". LLano = Yano. Ano refers to ones rectum, AÑO is years.

A common boo boo in the Border Patrol is for a beginner is to ask for one's age (how many years do you have) "Cuantos anos tiene usted"? Literally "how many rectum's do you have". Needless to say this can be embarrassing, especially to a young woman..

correctly said it should be "CUANTOS AÑOS" = ANYOS.< correct pronunciation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The Caballo Mnts" in New Mexico " "ka by oo" or, "ka vie oo"
******************************************
Ca "By" Yo = k bay yo < Mexican Spanish. Certain "Spanish" (Spain) dialects do interchange the "BY YO" and "VI YO ". because of the pronunciation of a certain King of Spain and his "err" lack of - hetero sexual inclinations. Apparently he should have been the Queen of Spain.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Js & Gs are pronounced with an "H" sound
The Az. Town of "AJO" for instance:
Is pronounced "ah ho", NOT! "AH JOE" !
Or
The Gila Monster (a large poisonous lizard) Is, "He La", not, "Gee la" !
****************************************\
Right on Bill
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What the early TH'er writers did , was to spell the Name of this Famous Mine/mission Like it sounded !
[ b]Tay O pah[/b]
Not as it is written...oR! AS it is Pronouced by the Native speaking peoples! Teopa Break out your Mexico Topographic Maps and you'll find the Word ...
One is a modern Day Peak, one is a Spanish mission etc....
***********************************************

Sorry Bill, my map from the 1600's spells it Tayopa, and so it is pronounced as such there.by the Guayajiro Indians who's ancestors worked it.

There are perhaps 20 mines named in close spelling of TAYOPA, but only ONE is the true Tayopa name, mine.

Othewise yoo do an excellent job my Friend Bill.


Tropical Tramp

 

[cptbild]

DARN!
I knew this would happen!
Now!
I'll have to go and find my "Topo" map with the Name Spelled as "TEOPA" on it!
OR!
How about,?
Does anyone have a copy of The Book, "Along the Border With General Crook" !
It mentions the mine of Teopa, in there also!
His "guide" said when, they were camped, near the Yaqui River, (Westside of the Sierra Madres) they "close enough to hear the bells of Teopa"

 

[cptbild]

WELL!
Let me tell you, "T.T." !

That I have my Spanish grammar "A.S.U." (All Screwed Up!) is not news to me !
Hey! I also went to College/Univ. at a place now, Nicknamed that! (ASU) !
But!
In H.S. & College, I hated "English" !
I did pick up enough correct english grammar at home, tho !
My mother was an English Teacher, (College Grad) !
ME!
I liked the Two "Ms" !
"M"ath & "M"echanics !

 

[roswellborn]

Unless, however, you live in a state that is CLUELESS about "proper pronunciation" of different languages.

i.e. Lima Peru is pronounced "Lee-ma" but Lima Ohio (according to the natives) Lie-ma.

or, Cairo, Illinois is not pronounced "Kie-ro" but like the syrup, "Karo." (Cay-ro) blech.

There is even a Santa Fe in Missouri, unfortunately mis-pronounced "Santa Fee" (I shudder every time I hear it and have yet to say it out loud - blechity blech).

Fiddle, didn't mean to hijack the thread - sorry 'bout that

HH
Nan

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Nana, Bill, heck sometimes I cant even understand myself sniff

Tropical Tramp

 

[Oroblanco]

Tropical Tramp has it correct - "LL" is pronounced "Y" and the little ~ mark over a letter means to add a "Y" sound, so N with the little ~ would be pronounced N-Y as if there was a Y after the N.

Bill and anyone else hunting old Tayopa, it is not a good practice to stick to a single spelling of the name - it is recorded in SEVERAL different spellings as has been posted before. If you limit your research to a SINGLE spelling, you will be missing a great deal of information, some of which might contain the vital clue that could lead you to a fantastic discovery. This holds true in the research of many old Spanish/Jesuit mines, or even those of early Americans or other colonists - spelling was not a hard and fast rule for any culture until relatively recent times.

I hated studying English in the old school daze too - I thought why in heck should we be studying that foreign language anyway! (haha )

Oroblanco

 

[cptbild]

OK! GUYS!
All I know (actually! I do know a few more things than just this! But! ) is how it was spelled on the Authentic Map, that I saw (& handled) actually from the Archives in Seville !
AND! IT weren't !
"TAYOPAH"


AH!

SO! There!

 

[Oroblanco]

OK Bill, you go ahead and hunt for TEOPA and ignore ALL the other evidence which may be spelled a little bit differently. Personally I would not limit my research to a single spelling, especially with early Spanish archives. Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasure that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hi-ya-all bill +{:>D)====+- to you heheheheheheh Next week I may again get into Tayopa, right now I am in the midst of developing thingies and have to keep a low key.

You and Oro(BETH), etc., should join me up there sometime--without sticky fingers naturally!

Are you still camped east of Tumacacori?

Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp

Tayopa, teopari, treaope, and on, sheehs, Igerent hill billy. I hereby give you permission to geneflect and smooch my hand when you finally realize the ugly truth -TAYOPA is TAYOPA!!!

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings mi amigo Blindbowman,

Blindbowman wrote:

well IMHO....... ta = horse ....yo= come here or look here .....and pa= one half of the mapa mine . from what i have under stood from the translation of the peralta stones . the mapa , was a set of spainish mines cross from each other .. i do beleive i know the area of these mines .

I am confused at your interpretation of the name Tayopa - now my Spanish is extremely limited, but I believe:
Horse = "caballo" not "ta"
'Yo" = "I" not "come here" or "look here"
"Pa" = "Pa" the same as in English

So can you explain to me how the name "Tayopa" is translated into the meanings you have assigned to it?

Blindbowman also wrote:

the horse stone pionts out the ta mine , at frist i beleived they were in mexico . there not , they are the supersititions mts...

Now, you seem to be convinced with the idea of Tayopa being in the Superstitions in Arizona, and not in Mexico, despite the fact there is a TON of evidence to prove that Tayopa is and was within what is today Mexico, in fact our mutual friend Real de Tayopa is credited by most as having found THE Tayopa, he has provided you with photos and there is ample text online to back it up - so when you continue to make this apparently wildly erroneous connection (Tayopa being in the Superstitions) it is both confusing and causes your readers here to be filled with doubts - for example, if a person could make such a mistake as to place a known, documented and already located mine (Tayopa) in a place where NO documentary evidence even suggests it to be, then what else in that person's theories is equally erroneous?

I hope you can clear this up for me, I had begun to think that I had a (basic) understanding of some of your search methods and theories, which would take a good deal of work to prove up (and that is what theories are for, to prove) but this continued linking of a known and located famous Mexican mine (Tayopa) in the Superstitions really is confusing me and making me wonder about how sound the rest of your reasoning is for your theories. Of course you are certainly welcome to hold your own opinion and view recorded history and our friend Real de Tayopa as false, however that would appear to be a rather blind view of the facts and I know you do weigh out facts. Thank you in advance, and I hope nothing I have said is of any offense, none was intended, just would appreciate if you could clear this matter up.

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

i dont know what real de tayopa found ......

 

[Cubfan64]

i dont know what real de tayopa found ......

Ummm, yah, that cleared it all up

 

[ClonedSIM]

Yep (just to echo everyone) the "LL" is pronounced as a "Y" sound, so Llano becomes Yano. And the ~ shape is called a tilde.

As far as mispronunciations go, I have a story as well.

I live about 20 miles north of a town called Portales. It is pronounced "POR TAL ES." Simple, eh?

It is not pronounced "PORT A LEES" or "POUR TALES."

 

[the blindbowman]

i dont know what real de tayopa found ......

Ummm, yah, that cleared it all up

i delited my reply .for a reason . you most likely would not beleive me in the frist place ..so beleive what you want ...good luck ..

 

[ClonedSIM]

All of you can keep on looking for Tayopa, I think that I will try to find Topira.

I'm looking for Tapioca.

I think I saw it in the Pudding Mountain Range, near Candy Ridge. They say it's hiding millions in chocolate gold coins...

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Blindbowman and everyone,

I now see where you found something to make you believe Tayopa is in the Superstitions; that said, in my own opinion one of our friends here on T-net has already found Tayopa and now owns it, a site which fits with the known evidence. I believe Tayopa was not a single mine (was it eighteen associated with the Tayopa real de minas? Do you recall how many 'dots' on those stone maps, hmm? ) so it is possible that one or more of the mines remains lost today. For that matter there are at least three different Tayopas (perhaps four) that is to say several different places that carried that name and produced silver or gold in great quantities, the one of our friend being the original and two others. (Dios Padre might be another, at least a friend of mine was convinced of that.) That said, I would still have difficulty in associating anything Tayopa with the Superstitions - in fact based on your information Blindbowman, I would now expand your search to include the barranca country of Mexico near the known Tayopa as well as searching the Superstitions, because it is quite possible those stone maps might relate to something in Mexico, either in addition to the Superstitions or instead of the Superstitions! Have you considered making an additional expedition to search south of the border, perhaps after you have completed your trip to the Superstitions? Only checking your information in the field is going to answer those questions, and you are already preparing to do just that, so I wish you good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear group
The pronounciation of the LL in Spanish strictly depends on the location the language is spoken in. Throughout much of Latin America the LL is pronounced as a Y in English, however in parts of South America and Southern Spain it's pronouned as a J would be in English. And, to further confuse matters, in most regions of Spain(where my parents came from) the LL is pronounced as an "L-Y" in English, the same way we pronounce MILLION in English. So the word GALLINA (CHICKEN) can be correctly pronounced as GUY-YE-NA, GUY-GEE-NA, or GUILE-YE-NA. Confusing, huh?

The word or name TAYOPA is NOT Spanish at all as there are no words in Spanish which start with the letters TAY, rather it's most likely some form of Aztec, if it is in fact a true word or name at all. Based on my limited knowledge of the Aztec, I will assume that it's pronounced as TIE-YO-PAW, with the accent resting heavily on the final syllable PAW, like this: "tie-yo-PAW"

The tilde ~ spoken about is found over the N and the letter is known as the NY (pronounced as N-YEA) in Spanish. It has since fall out of favor and now the modern version is simply a line - over the N as this is easier to write and type. Spanish class is now over for the evening. Carry on.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

Blindbowman made several statements here that raise more questions:

Blindbowman wrote:

it was Aztec , but was translated to old portuguese , found in the years 1279-1325 ,

How can we conclude the name Tayopa was translated to old Portuguese, when the Portuguese did not reach the Americas until circa 1500, when Pedro Alvares Cabral, swung too far westward while attempting to sail around Africa. I have not found any evidence to support an earlier Portuguese presence in America than 1500, two centuries after Deniz lived - a major timeline problem.

Blindbowman also wrote:

the word is in code Ta yo pa it mean Time Aztec your pa , or the father of the Aztec people ,

Why do you conclude the name Tayopa is in code, or that it means Time Aztec your pa, father of the Aztec people?

Blindbowman also wrote:

the language is old portuguese from the years of Deniz of portugal in the years of 1279-1325 ..

I respectfully disagree mi amigo, I see no reason to conclude the language is anything other than mid-twentieth century Spanglish. Have you considered that the stones might well be a mean fraud?

Blindbowman also wrote:

where is the AZtlan anyone . in my pocket, thats right ...

Hmm well there are a number of theories as to the true location of Aztlan, including a fairly sound one that Aztlan is one and the same with Atlantis! I hardly see Atlantis in the Superstition mountains of Arizona, much less in anyone's pocket - however....

Blindbowman also wrote:

Deniz wanted copper and silver and was doing exploration inland from brazil in the years of 1279 -1300 when the templars vanished

I agree that king Deniz very probably wanted copper and silver, as well as gold and jewels and spices, but we have no evidence that Deniz had any knowledge of the Americas, much less had any ships exploring into Brazil. Do you know of any such evidence, if so I would appreciate if you could share it, as I have been working on a book for some eight years on ancient explorers, and have failed to find any evidence of Portuguese visiting the Americas prior to Cabral in 1500. There is evidence of Old World visitors prior to Columbus and Lief Eriksson, but nothing Portuguese....

Blindbowman also wrote:

the code says pegleg was the one that change the wording in 1847

I respectfully disagree with this conclusion, and see no reason to think that Pegleg Smith, the successful kidnapper and horsethief, and source of one of the most famous lost mine legends in the whole southwest, had ever touched or even SEEN the so-called Peralta stone maps. I fear this is a very questionable leg of your theory mi amigo, and could be a false lead even if the stone maps are genuine.

You have a very interesting theory my friend Blindbowman, one that is going to take a lot of work to prove but if proven would result in the re-writing of many a history book. I wish you good luck and good hunting, and as always I hope you and everyone here find the treasures that you seek.

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
I know nothing of a Portuguese influence on the naming conventions of Latin American Spanish Colonial towns, cities, landmarks and other sites of interest. I do however, know that the early Spanish explorers always had amongst them at least one person who was capable of reading and writing. Granted, I stated that this person was always capable of reading and writing, however I did not state WHICH language or dialect the person used. Without exception, the written Spanish word was always transcribed in Catalan Spanish or Latin which is quite a bit different from the Castillian Spanish which practically everyone is now familiar with.

In order to fully understand the dialectual differences in Spain, one must first go back to the 10th century. In the early part of the 10th century, all of Spain spoke a variation of a single root language, with the notable exception of an area in Northern Spain along the Pyrenees mountains known as the Basque country. Here they spoke an entirely different language. As an aside, the language spoke by these people, and still spoken in this particular region by the way, is the oldest known living language in Europe and it is also the the only language currently being spoken in Europe without having been influenced by Latin. In fact, until the Renasence, all the languages of mainland Europe could be considered as a Form of Vulgar Latin (Vulgar meaning COMMON in Latin and nothing more).

With the advent of the Moors into Southern and Central Spain, the language evolved into what's now known as Castillian Spanish and this is the Spanish that is recognized worldwide as the true and proper form of the language. The Moors however, were never able to invade Spain further north than Valencia, hence the area of Catalunya (yes, the spelling is correct, as Catalan doesn't use the tilde over the N as is used in Castillian Spanish) retained it's language in whole. Catalan is still widely spoken in Catalunya as well as other selected parts of the world, most notably the Balear islands and in one province in Italy, oddly enough.

Now, during the Middle Ages all education was taught under the watchful eye of the Roman Catholic church and the only scholars during this time period could be found as members of the various Roman Catholic Monastetic Orders. Since mid and southern Spain were under the firm hand of it's Moorish victors and there were no monasteries in the region, Christian families, wishing to educate their sons, sent them to the North, to Catalunya or the region know known as modern day France, for their educations. It was here, in these monasteries and universities that these young men learned to read and write. The language they learned was Catalan, which is a member of the Occitan family of languages.

During the time of the Moorish invaders, the spoken Spanish language evolved very quickly and within the span of a couple of generations, the Moors started impacting the old language with their own words and accents. The language of the Moors was, and still is a form of Arabic. This started the change in the linguistic differences in Spain and they have since evolved into 5 major dialectual groups. The groups are as follows: Castilliano, Asturian, Galician, Aragonese and Catalan. As the language of Spain was evolving following the Moorish rule, the written langauge could not keep pace, therefore Catalan continued to be used until at least the mid 1600s, when it started to fall from usage in light of the more modernistic (and now fully evolved) Castillian Spanish dialect.

This is why you can see the differences in spellings of names on early Latin American colonial maps, such as Guadalaxara. In Catalan Spanish this spelling was, and still is, correct, however in Castillian Spanish the X has been dropped and the more modern J has taken it's place. Part of the reason for the spelling difference is because the Catalan language has retained most of it's original written and spoken Latin pronounciations, whereas Castillian evolved into a more modern language. Immediately one can see that the X as written in Catalan is pronounced as an English J, in exactly the same manner as it is pronounced in Latin. In Latin, the X is always pronounced the same as the modern English J would be and Catalan follows this grammerical rule.

This may be the reason why so many Americans seem to think that Colonial Spanish writings were influenced by the Portuguese, due to the similiarites of the letter groupings to Catalan. In fact, many times whilst speaking Catalan, I've been asked if I were speaking a form of Portuguese, a langauge which I can not speak and have no pressing desire to learn.

The early Spanish croniclers must have had a very difficult time trying to translate the words and names from the indigenous peoples of Latin America into something which could be pronounced and understood by Spaniards. Many unintentional mistakes were made by these chroniclers and some have since been corrected, however most remain today as grammerical errors.
Your friend;
LAMAR