Turned off and burned by museums

[BosnMate]

Just wondering what experience you guys have had with museums. I've donated a couple of items to museums, and later gone back, and the items aren't there, and nobody has any idea what happened to them. In my youth I worked on a ranch in Nevada, and found a number of Indian relics. Donated them to a local museum, and they are all gone except for the grinding stone I donated, and that is credited to the university. Another time I found the location of a blacksmith shop, found hand made ox shoes, hand made chain and some other stuff. Donated that to the museum. They are long gone and nobody knows anything about them. My mother loaned a museum in California a hair wreath that was done with hair from all our family members, including my grandfather, back in Victorian times, when such stuff was popular. The family wasn't 49er's, but they are among the oldest families in the area, dating way back. The wreath is not on display, and the museum says they own it, and won't return it. Mom is gone, and there is no receipt that I could find, so now I guess they do own it. When I donated stuff, they were tickled to get it, and took my information, for what ever that was worth.

 

[Graddick]

Graddick, since you seem to speak with the authority of an archie, please explain something to all of us unwashed, detecting rabble.

First of all, that sort of attitude only hurts the reputation of this hobby. I try to think that such a confrontational tone is not the norm among the majority of metal detectorists.

What exactly is so important in these post-historical "archeological sites" that are only worthy of digging by an archie? For every shipwreck, battle site, etc.... what is to be learned that can change, alter or add to known history? I mean if we already knew that XXX country was sailing commercial ships or that 2 combatants fought at a location, what waste the dollars to lock off the land and perform an excavation? We would already have records of ship construction methods and the places they traveled too. WE would already have records of the beligerants, who commanded them, and what military units were contained.

So what is so precious at these sites that nobody else is allowed to dig?

There is much more to history than just "Army X attacks Army Y. Army X wins. The End." Historians also appreciate being able to learn about the everyday people who lived in the past, not just the thoughts of the people who wrote accounts of events. Even those accounts are unreliable and often just plain wrong. No historian would take a text at face value.
A good example comes from a program I watched recently about the Seige of Quebec in 1759. They had cannonballs from the English camp (fired by the French) and others from the French camp (fired by the English). They put them through an MRI and found the French cannonballs to be of a poorer quality of metal and made from melted down tools while the British had excellent cannonballs made in advanced foundaries back in England. That gave the archaeologist evidence that the British had a material advantage over the French forces. Now imagine if all of those cannonballs had been dug up by metal detectorists. They wouldn't remember where they found what and all you would have are a pile of worthless 300 year old lumps of iron.
I hope that other metal detectorists would exercise some sort of discretion when it comes to what sites should be left untouched and what sites are historically worthless.

 

[Graddick]

Will there be a difference in history, if there were 8 buttons found, or 20? If someone is really worried about history, then the relics can be photographed and logged, which would probably serve history better, than having the relics stored in the back room of a museum.

As opposed to sitting in a coffee can in your basement? Finding 8 buttons rather than 20 would make a difference. If a lot of buttons were lost at a site that might indicate that people's clothes were more ragged and falling apart. If the buttons were nice or crummy that could indicate the wealth/status of those who lost them. The maker of the buttons could indicate where the people came from (or at least where they bought their clothes). More buttons could indicate a greater number of people were occupying a site than was previously thought. Shall I go on?

There is loads of information that can be pulled from even the simplest of items. That information only grows when there are more items to give a fuller, and more accurate, picture.

 

[maipenrai]

And how many buttons are lost, on the average from every uniform? If there are more buttons found, in one place, than another, could it be a simple explanation like people just happened to lose more buttons in that place? It doesnt necessarily mean more people lived there, just that they were sewn on badly. Its nice to theorize about things like this, especilly if its a question of keeping your job, or more funding. I think that is what bugs a lot of people here, not only do we not get any credit for our finds, we are made out to be outlaws.

 

[Jason in Enid]

Graddick, you still failed to answer my question. What is being added to historical knowledge? More or less people were there? One side was wealthier? again, these are things we already know from HISTORICAL WRITTEN RECORDS. Or is it that YOU want to go dig these things and not the rest of us?

 

[bearbqd]

 

[dneyedli@res1.mts.net]

Graddick,
I recall you stating that the term "saving history" was a joke to you on the Canadian forum as well. I would like to understand fully where you're coming from.
Are you generalizing all detectorist's in the looting category?
Surely you must realize that myself and others in the fur trade circle spent countless hours recording, preserving, and keeping each site's contents together and documented.
U.K. members on this forum spend countless hours GPS plotting as well.
Is it fair to say that all of us have coffee cans filled with buttons that are unrecorded?
I understand the message you are conveying but find it difficult to see where you stand. Your wording gives the impression that you're not a fan of us digging any historical artifacts period. Even from sites that are about to be destroyed from development.
Do any of us deserve credit in your eyes? What is acceptable for us to dig?

 

[TORRERO]

Will there be a difference in history, if there were 8 buttons found, or 20? If someone is really worried about history, then the relics can be photographed and logged, which would probably serve history better, than having the relics stored in the back room of a museum.

As opposed to sitting in a coffee can in your basement? Finding 8 buttons rather than 20 would make a difference. If a lot of buttons were lost at a site that might indicate that people's clothes were more ragged and falling apart. If the buttons were nice or crummy that could indicate the wealth/status of those who lost them. The maker of the buttons could indicate where the people came from (or at least where they bought their clothes). More buttons could indicate a greater number of people were occupying a site than was previously thought. Shall I go on?

There is loads of information that can be pulled from even the simplest of items. That information only grows when there are more items to give a fuller, and more accurate, picture.

Or how about Confederate buttons found on a Union site, what does it tell you... ?
I understand the desire to metal detect, and find wonderful artifacts.. I have been doing it for years
but there is also something to be said about perserving a historic site and learning from what it can tell us.
There are many many sites that have been scavenged by metal detectorists over the years and any information that could have been recovered will now, never be....
That does not mean I would give up my hobby for the "Archies" Some places will never be or need to be professionally perserved and should be open to the casual hunter...

That said, when I was in Spain I hunted on some really old Roman sites (2000 to 2500 years old)
and as I dig a target I try in my minds eye to envision how that item got there...
Like a silver 2 Real, on a strictly Roman site. I ask why it is here right ? You say Spanish were there in the 1700's and that is how it was lost ?
Obviously, But when there is a lack of any other early Spanish items, such as buttons, or buckles or thimbles or any of the myriad other small items that might
have been lost on a day to day basis if someone had been living there, now ask why that silver 2 real was there..... ?

The only conclusion I could find was that Spanish Royalty or aristocrats visited the site to see the roman ruins in their day, just as we did to detect the site for Roman coins,
(but there were no ruins here visible to us, so this tells me that in the 1700's there were still Roman ruins at this site that were visible, Maybe even in tact, to attract the attention of people who had money... ?)

I find it hard to believe that a peasant farmer, was carrying around Silver Reals and lost this while farming his field...

This is my hypothesis, but no one else will ever know, because I am the one who dug that 2 reals coin 20 years ago and so this thought may be forever lost
because of my digging.... (this was not an Archie site by the way, just one of many small Roman sites we hunted)

Now that is why Archies are good, they help us form a hypothesis of what people and their lives were like during a time that we do not live, and during a time
in which we may not have accurate records. Helping us gain insight into our past.

 

[maipenrai]

Thank you Torrero for your input, but that is exactly what I was saying. You found one Spanish coin in a supposedly Roman area, and from that one coin, you came to the conclusion that Royalty visited that spot, to look at the ruins, that you didnt see either. That is a lot of imagination, and would be as true, if I said that I had dropped it while hiking, since it was my lucky coin. Luckily for history you dug it up, and only we know about it, otherwise, your theory might be repeated enough times, that it would become fact. It would be written in all the Spanish history books, that Spanish Royalty always came to that spot to look at the Roman ruins. If you can get that much history from one coin, then history is in big trouble. I wonder how much other history is made the same way.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Bosnmate, As a docent in two local historical museums, I must comment on this.

Museums get donations, from well-meaning folks like yourself, all the time. And I'm sure each person donating the stuff that theyr'e cleaning out from Grandma's estate attic, feels that their item is utterly integral to the story of the local history there. And the museum curator catches flack if they don't display each and every item. Ie.: Grandma's sewing machine stitched up uniforms for all the WWI soldiers passing through our local base, so "what do you mean it's not critical to be displayed here?"

And there is simply only so much room and display cabinets for all the stuff. Trust me, every other person who came in before you, and after you, feels their items should be given the utmost visibility, respect, display space, etc... It simply can't be done. They'd have to be perpetually rotating stuff all the time, and be at the whims and call of everyone else's opinions as to what is relevant. Or put another way, anyone can simply come in and essentially demand the way displays should be, what should be in them, etc... the minute they donate something (lest you "offend" the person donating the item).

It's also gotten to where the museums I work at will not take items on a "loan" basis anymore. Because there were horror stories of persons (or their heirs decades later) simply coming in to the museum demanding that cases be opened, and "their" stuff returned. And Lord help you if it didn't happen to be on display at that time, and was, instead, in archives or storage elsewhere. Now everyone has to drop everything and go find their thing, because it was only on "loan". So we developed a form whereby the person agrees it becomes the property of the city. BUT THIS TOO OFFENDS PEOPLE, who argue and demand to know "why?" and so forth. It's a never ending challenge. And if you decline all donations, then you also offend people (or quite frankly, may pass up a very pertinent donation that did indeed merit display).

So there's a little more to it than you see on the surface.

 

[Produce Guy]

The key to giving to Museums,is not giving,but selling,they have money,belive me they all have money$$$$$.

 

[Smudge]

Bosnmate,

Sounds like the mistake you made in your youth was that you never got an acknowledgment or a receipt from the museum saying you had made the donation and what was donated.

Things they get from the university have already been catalogued.

But as for your donations, well, if there's no record of them, what's to stop the curator from taking the item home or selling it for their own profit?

Nothing.

And they call us thieves.

 

[Michigan Badger]

I see museums as businesses out to make money. Maybe not money for themselves but money for someone. They do this many different ways depending on the specialty and real agenda.

Small town museums draw people who in turn may well visit area businesses and spend money. A super hot museum (very famous displays) can make a town rich.

The mega museums not only have political support but they are able to generate large sums of money on their own.

I'm an artist so in my case I'm interested in art museums. They obviously want art that is popular with the public. Popularity means money at the auction level. Art they acquire will be displayed as long as it has some measure of worth greater than other art waiting inline for museum space. And too the big museums will sell copies of the best art in their tourist trap gift shops.

Once a work is no longer popular (or a slightly more popular example is acquired) it may go into storage, be sold, or possibly traded. I've heard this is also true with the types of museums to which you're referring.

Museum space is precious and only that which those in charge view as "most important" is displayed. Once storage space is used up a sale takes place (these are usually not well known). Yup, it's a scam but it's legal.

My guess is your stuff was sold or packed away somewhere. At some later date some may suddenly reappear.

But probably some rich person has your stuff in his private collection.

I look at all museum art buyers as used car salesmen. I'd never donate a work to a museum because it most likely would never be displayed. If it has value they'll come to me. They'll want it for about 1/10 of what it's worth but sometimes it's worth it for artist public exposure.

I think you get it.

Sorry to read of your bum luck. Lots of well-meaning people get burned this way.

Badger

 

[Graddick]

Graddick, you still failed to answer my question. What is being added to historical knowledge? More or less people were there? One side was wealthier? again, these are things we already know from HISTORICAL WRITTEN RECORDS. Or is it that YOU want to go dig these things and not the rest of us?

As I already said, historical records are far from accurate. No historian takes a document at face value.

Graddick,
I recall you stating that the term "saving history" was a joke to you on the Canadian forum as well. I would like to understand fully where you're coming from.
Are you generalizing all detectorist's in the looting category?
Surely you must realize that myself and others in the fur trade circle spent countless hours recording, preserving, and keeping each site's contents together and documented.
U.K. members on this forum spend countless hours GPS plotting as well.
Is it fair to say that all of us have coffee cans filled with buttons that are unrecorded?
I understand the message you are conveying but find it difficult to see where you stand. Your wording gives the impression that you're not a fan of us digging any historical artifacts period. Even from sites that are about to be destroyed from development.
Do any of us deserve credit in your eyes? What is acceptable for us to dig?

I have no problem with digging sites that are about to be destroyed. Those are some of the site I try to focus on in my own hunting.
I also tip my hat to those of you who do take meticulous records and preserve their finds.

What annoys me is when people take an unnecessarily hostile attitude to archaeologists. I especially get annoyed whenever I see the word "archie." I get the impression that there is a much better relationship between metal detectorists and archaeologists in the UK. I wish it was like that here in North America. Perhaps it is because there are fewer good sites in North America whereas nearly every field in the UK has been occupied at some point. Thus metal detectorists and archaeologists in North America are "competing" in a zero-sum game for sites.

 

[diggemall]

What annoys me is when people take an unnecessarily hostile attitude to archaeologists.

What annoys ME is when archaeologists take an unnecessarily hostile attitude towards Detectorists..

I don't state that blithely: A number of years ago, the State Archie (His actions have earned him the derisive monniker IMHO) here in WI declared ALL State - owned lands and waterways Off-Limits to detectorists AND went so far as to encourage all other units of our state govt (County, Municipal) to do likewise in the age-old rationale that detectorists destroyed the provinence of any finds. What is completely lacking in his "logic" is the fact that "all the kings horsemen and all the kings men" couldn't POSSIBLY cover the acreage under the gubbermints control here in our state in a millenia!

From an earlier post of mine on this same subject:

WI has 5,633,610 acres held by the State & Federal govt.
Assuming an excavation "pit" of 1 sq yd, that translates into 27,266,672,400 potential "pits". (That's 27+ BILLION)
Even if they were capable of excavating a single pit in only two days (I know - that's too fast) and IF they were able to work 1,000 pits simultaneously and continuously, 365 days / year;
IT WOULD TAKE OVER 149,000 YEARS TO EXAMINE EVERY SQUARE YARD OF STATE AND FEDERAL LAND (never mind County, municipal, and private land) IN THIS STATE ALONE !

Sorry, only a complete and total moron would think for even a heartbeat that it all has to be "protected" for "professionals" to exhume, when such a task is simply IMPOSSIBLE.

I get the impression that there is a much better relationship between metal detectorists and archaeologists in the UK.

I share your perspective on this one (and a great many posts on this site by our UK brethren support it)

 

[U.K. Brian]

Unfortunately not all of the U.K. is wall to wall with coins. Many parts had high populations due to easily worked soil and lots of U.K. detectorists just wait for their local fields to be ploughed and wander round taking the coins from off the surface and near surface. There's no real value in the depth information as the yearly ploughing for hundreds of years keeps churning the soil over.

Half the country though is hills or mountain where cattle, sheep or deer have grazed and ploughing occurs rarely or never. When I find a hot spot through sheer luck and consideration of if there's a water source and declare the finds then quite often the farmer or landowner is approached and asked not to let you on the ground again even though there's no intention of conducting a dig. Then add the thousands of acres of public owned land administered by the Forestry Commission, the commons you are banned from, National Trust land thats been donated to preserve it for the use and enjoyment of the public that you can't go near etc etc.

Relations are not that good !

 

[Mark S.]

I will expand a bit on what Tom Ca said.

I was a member of and worked regularly at a small historical museum where I previously lived. We had a form for donations or loans. It was signed by both the museum head and the donor and both have a copy.
The loan form had a expiration date on it. I did not deal with the forms but I know that at the expiration it was either renewed, donated or given back. If loaned then the item itself was tagged as such.

A lot of it depends on the integrity of those involved. There is of course nothing stopping a dishonest person from stealing. I do know that there is a record of that historical society receiving a donation of an Indian relic collection many years prior to the museums existence. They had some display cases in the town hall and items were stored in various places. The collection could not be located when we began outfitting the museum. So someone thieved it. If loaning then I would suggest you take good photos of the item and maybe have an appraisal done. This way you will have the proof if the item does disappear.

As for donating an item, here is a fact. Understand that if you do so then you relinquish all ownership and say so over the item. It is no longer yours. The museum owns it 100%. They can do whatever they wish with it. If it is a valuable item and they see dollar signs then they are free to sell it.

 

[gleaner1]

The reputable museums under proper management are rock solid. A year or two ago my local county historical museum discovered old Pres. Lincoln and Susan B. Anthony documents in an old box tucked away back on the shelves somewhere and forgotten for a good long time. These documents brewed up a bit of a storm, these things do not surface often, maybe once in a blue moon. If you want to find out more google Jefferson County Historical Society Watertown NY I am too lazy to provide link, sorry.

 

[lonesomebob]

As it has been said on this site. What you find or where you find it, is your own information. So simply KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT. !!!!!!! Bob