U.S. officials bust Florida scuba diver for stealing Red Sea artifacts

[wreckdiver1715]

WASHINGTON, DC (11 Mar 2006) -- Department of Homeland Security officials today returned to the Saudi Government 132 pounds of ancient coins seized in an investigation after being illegally removed from a shipwreck in the Red Sea.
"Artifacts such as these coins are not trinkets that can be pilfered and sold to the highest bidder," said Julie L. Myers, Assistant Secretary of Homeland Security for Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE).
"To their rightful owners, these artifacts are priceless items that are cherished and proudly displayed as a testament to their cultural history."
"These coins are treasured artifacts that reflect the cultural heritage of humanity as well as Saudi Arabia's unique history as an ancient trade center and as the birthplace of Islam," said Saudi Ambassador Prince Turki Al-Faisal.
"Their recovery and return to the Kingdom is an example of the deep friendship between Saudi Arabia and the United States and the respect the U.S. has for cultural heritage."
ICE agents in Miami launched an investigation following a tip that led agents to a Key West man who admitted to improperly taking the coins while on a recreational dive in Saudi Arabia in 1994.
An Interpol Red Notice posted by Saudi law enforcement provided additional information on the coins and the subject.
Records show that the subject communicated in chat rooms that focused on Islamic coins in order to learn how to restore the coins and to solicit possible buyers.
Agents, acting in an undercover capacity, engaged the suspect via email eventually identifying themselves as ICE agents and confronting him in person with the facts of the case.
The subject surrendered the coins to agents on April 7, 2005 and the coins were administratively forfeited on July 9, 2005.

SOURCE: CDNN
http://www.cdnn.info/news/industry/i060311.html

 

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[suwannee pirate]

Thats a bunch of BS,the only reason that they done anything about it 12 years after the fact is they want to suck up to a bunch of arabs whose contrymen flew airplanes into the towers .Oil is more important to our government than an individuals rights.With Iran fixin to get wacked our govt. is trying to buddy up with any islamic country by any means necessary.Hell I think we should turn the whole damn place to glass and divide the oil with Russia and China. Its a shame when our govt. drags a couple of recreational divers out on the carpet to make examples of them for a bunch of towel heads approval. If anyone reading this ever finds anything of any real value take a lesson and keep your mouth shut, don't post anything or ask any advice that would let the cat out of the bag because big brother is watching every post made and any information that they have they will use to further their cause whatever it may be with no reguard for anyone in their path. Enough said...theres sombody knockin at the door with a piece of paper in their hand.... Bob

 

[FISHEYE]

Artifacts such as these coins are not trinkets that can be pilfered and sold to the highest bidder," said Julie L. Myers, Assistant Secretary of Homeland Security for Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE).
"To their rightful owners, these artifacts are priceless items that are cherished and proudly displayed as a testament to their cultural history



Those coins wernt worth anything sitting on the bottom of the ocean till those divers brought them to the surface.the saudi's should have at least offered the divers 2 years worth of gas for thier effort.as far as the rightful owners goes,they went down with the ship.maybe ICE should be looking on ebay,lots of coins on there sold to the highest bidder.but then again what ever happened to free enterprize?

 

[Heavy Chevy]

I agree with everyone here. If the Saudi's had a claim on it they should have recovered the coins from the sea themselves. I guess it just shows us all to keep a tight lid on it.

BTW Also the Spanish government shouldn't have a claim on their wrecks in US waters because they stole the gold and silver in the first place.I figure if they really wanted it they would salvage it themselves. But No ! They only want it when they can get it easy ! But that is another story ........

Mke in SC

 

[JakePhelps]

"Their recovery and return to the Kingdom is an example of the deep friendship between Saudi Arabia and the United States and the respect the U.S. has for cultural heritage."

Sounds like the government is trying to get some brownie points

If I were those divers I would just have heaved them overboard rather than letting the government get their hands on it

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Sad story. 12 years after he found them! There is no statute of limitations? They probably threatened him with a long prison term if he didn't surrender the coins. Why didn't our goood friends the Saudis just buy them? This teaches us all a lesson. It is a shame that we have to worry about posting a picture and telling the story of a great find. A member of the Saudi Royal Family declares war on us, has trained terrorrists hijack planes to fly into our buildings with the purpose of killing and spreading terror, who will probably die of old age, and we attack Iraq and make a whole country of new enemies because Saddam Hussein is a bad person.? This is more complicated than we think. I have to go now and hide some coins.

 

[Cablava]

Patrimony Strikes Again

New York Sun Editorial
March 21, 2006

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


A D V E R T I S E M E N T

Now that the Italians have managed to raid the Metropolitan Museum of Art under Mussolini's patrimony laws, who's going to be next? How about Saudi Arabia? If you think that's far-fetched, feature what happened earlier this month, when federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers leaned on a Florida man and forced him to surrender to the Saudis a trove of medieval Islamic coins he'd found in the Red Sea and saved and was preparing to preserve.

The coins, weighing a total of 132 pounds, were removed from a shipwreck in the Red Sea when the unidentified Florida man discovered them during a recreational dive. The coins most likely belonged to thirteenth century pilgrims sailing to or from Islamic holy sites on the Arabian Peninsula. ICE agents at some point received a tip that someone was asking questions on Internet message boards about how to preserve and sell such coins. Agents launched an investigation, tracking the subject on the Web before identifying themselves as law enforcement and extracting surrender of the coins under threat of legal action.

The private collector was trying to dig up information on how best to conserve his finds in preparation for finding a willing buyer. In other words, the activities of this individual illuminate that a private market for antiquities provides incentives to care for those antiquities. The big fear now shouldn't be whether other private individuals will join in the trade of antiquities such as these coins, but rather whether the government has provided a disincentive to preserve valuable objects out of fear that doing so might draw the unwanted gaze of cultural enforcers.

Why is the American government using money it extracts from American taxpayers to enforce other countries' misguided cultural patrimony laws? In this case, authorities say they were spurred into action in part by an alert the Saudis sent out over Interpol. But even absent Interpol "Red Notices," America voluntarily enforces import bans on cultural property from countries that request bilateral agreements under the Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property, a treaty perpetrated by the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization.

Under the Convention, America has at various times restricted the import of Canada's Inuit cultural patrimony, Peru's pre-Columbian archaeological and ethnological material, Malian artifacts, and antiquities from Cyprus. America's import restrictions also help enforce the Mussolini-era Italian law that riled New York last month. The law allowing for import restrictions only went on the books in 1983, more than a decade after the Euphronios krater came to the Met, which is how the bowl was able to come to New York.

Yet it is not at all obvious that our government is doing anyone any favors. Some of the most important artifacts to emerge from Peru are textiles, which Peruvian museums have a decidedly mixed record of conserving properly. These columns have documented Italy's problems preserving its patrimony. And while the Floridian in the Saudi coin case might one day have sold them to a wealthy individual who could have lent them to a museum for public viewing, wherever they end up in the Kingdom now, the female half of Saudi Arabia's population won't be able to drive to see them.

"These coins are treasured artifacts that reflect the cultural heritage of humanity as well as Saudi Arabia's unique history as an ancient trade center and as the birthplace of Islam," the Saudi ambassador to America, Prince Turki al Faisal, said upon the objects' return. So much so that the Kingdom had allowed the coins to lie in the corrosive salt waters of the Red Sea for centuries. A private individual finally rescued them from the ocean floor and likely would have conserved them if the American government hadn't intervened. That somehow seems better for humanity than returning the coins to a corrupt state that hadn't even realized until recently that they existed.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Very good arcticle Cablava. What I don't understand is how did the Saudis or the ICE agents know that these coins were illegally obtained when no one knew they were missing or even existed? Do they check out everything that is spoken about on the net by keying in on certain words?

 

[JakePhelps]

I always read all these articles about people getting things confinscated by the government, but why do they hand it over? Why not hide it somewhere? Too bad theres no way to make sure the dumb government isnt spying on this site, I bet so many great treasures are never heard of because of the governments stupid interest in what the public is doing

 

[gord]

Very good arcticle Cablava. What I don't understand is how did the Saudis or the ICE agents know that these coins were illegally obtained when no one knew they were missing or even existed? Do they check out everything that is spoken about on the net by keying in on certain words?

Of course - how else did CaptBil get his visit? Look up Echelon combined with NSA & CIA.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Very good arcticle Cablava. What I don't understand is how did the Saudis or the ICE agents know that these coins were illegally obtained when no one knew they were missing or even existed? Do they check out everything that is spoken about on the net by keying in on certain words?

Of course - how else did CaptBil get his visit? Look up Echelon combined with NSA & CIA.

Since I don't do anything illegal, I have nothing to worry about. I am a newbie to the internet and I was just curious. I see posting on the net is much more dangerous than talking on the phone.

"I always read all these articles about people getting things confinscated by the government, but why do they hand it over? Why not hide it somewhere?" (quote)
Jake, Good to hear from you. I would imagine that the Government accumulated evidence to make a case. Internet posts, pictures, travel records, such as hotel receipts, plane tickets, boat rental, witnesses and credit card use placing the defendant in the area. They may even have taken the next step in setting up a sting and purchased some coins. The Feds have a 99% conviction rate. They can take as long as they want, with unlimited resources in assembling evidence against a suspect. You can not beat them. He probably realized he was going away for a long time, maybe even a chance of being in a dirt floor prison hellhole in Saudi Arabia. His lawyer probably advised him to confess and turn in the artifacts in exchange for a lesser sentence here in the U.S.A., or maybe probation. Hopefully he kept one coin for sentimental reasons.

 

[da Hobo]

I agree with everyone here. If the Saudi's had a claim on it they should have recovered the coins from the sea themselves. I guess it just shows us all to keep a tight lid on it.

BTW Also the Spanish government shouldn't have a claim on their wrecks in US waters because they stole the gold and silver in the first place.I figure if they really wanted it they would salvage it themselves. But No ! They only want it when they can get it easy ! But that is another story ........

Mke in SC

On the off chance I will step into a hole and disappear in a plug hole deep in the desert someplace, . . . . let me say this and MANY won't like it but . . . .

" . . . they stole the gold and silver . . ." WE stole the land. It's truly a sad story, the history of America. Try The Indian Wars of 1832-36.

As for this 12 year old find and confiscation, there does seem to be something strange about it. Sometimes the devils in the details. What ARE those details, separate from the news clip and rumor?

Hobo

 

[ZumbroKid]

Sounds like a case of a thief caught years after the crime.

 

[RonS]

The Bush Clan has been in Bed with the Saudi's long before GW took office.. Of course its an Oil thing the Bush Empire is built on Oil as is "Ol Dick Chaney." and his crony's.
RonS

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

All of you guys are right in a way , but let's not make this a political forum . There are specific places for that . Not only will Big Brother watch your ,, recovery stories ,, but he will also get you on your political views . So ... let's keep this a treasure forum please ! Cornelius

I never thought of it that way. My family has lost touch with relatives in prison, in the old Soviet Union, for their political views. That may never happen here, but they can make it tough on you in other ways. (such as IRS) You don't know who is keeping a list of possible troublemakers esp. in time of war when laws change or are circumvented. I for one have probably talked too much off the subject of treasure and will try to refrain.

 

[Monty]

Well said Cornelias! I hate political discussions on a forum. It always turns into an argument that no one ever wins and just causes hard feelings. But I do think the Saudi thing is as unfair as anything I ever read. I doubt that I will ever hit the big one, but if I do, you guys unfortunately won't hear about it. I'm sure all forms of mass communications has key words or key phrases that are automatically keyed in on by NIS and I'm just as sure this forum article is being monitored. But as someone else said, I haven't done anything illegal , unethical or un- American, so I 'm not worried. Monty

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Great thread.

BTW, is there any way to check if one's ponhe is bguegd?

I am certainly not up on the latest technology by any stretch of the imagination. In the old days a person could tell if there was a parasitic tap on his/her land ponhe by connecting a cheap voltmeter to the two lo voltage lines going to your ponhe. If you know the normal voltage, you would see small movement of the needle (a decrease in the voltage) if your ponhe is bguegd. You will get the same response if someome is listening on an extension in another room. But this info is probably obsolete. I have heard that every land ponhe conversation is recorded nowadays. For how long, I don't know.
The funny thing is that most foreignors think us Americans are paranoid.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

 

[Monty]

My son worked on some of their equipment when he was in the service and you can't tell if you are being bugged anymore. Everything is done remotely, no longer need to come in and place a device on your phone. Monty

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Hey Monty, That is not the type of bug I was referring to. I was referring to the kind where a person just has to clip on to the two wires of your line. They could be on the side of your home, in the meter/phone room of your apt. or condo, or down the street. If a judge allowed it, they could park a van down the street by a telephone pole or underground service box and clip on. simple. They don't need to enter your home. Inside the van would be recording equipment. If my memory serves me, that was called a parasitic tap, and it could be detected by the voltmeter method I described earlier. I would imagine there to be more sophisticated methods nowadays. I have no reason to need to know and I am not paranoid.
And I love Bush.