updates on russian detecting law?

[jagchaser]

Has anybody metal detected in Russia since the new law in 2013?

I am headed there this summer and was hoping to take my machine.

 

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[Treasure_Hunter]

We have Russian members who post their finds. Have you done a search for "Russia"...

 

[jagchaser]

Yes, and I have seen a few good threads. Nothing talking about the specifics of the new law though. It looks like the only places safe to detect are beaches. I imagine locals who know the authorities would get a lot less grief than some redneck out poking around, so I wanted to get all the info I could before I take my machine.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Yes, and I have seen a few good threads.....

Ok, you've seen some good threads, presumably with show & tell of md'rs find from there, right ?

.... It looks like the only places safe to detect are beaches.....

Do those "few good threads" you allude to have only beach-comber finds, and no land-hunter finds ?

.... Nothing talking about the specifics of the new law though ....

If persons are detecting there no problem (as evidenced by the few good threads), then .... obviously , somehow, people are md'ing there, and it must not be an issue. If you are worried still though, how about sticking to private farmers fields with permission (like where you can deduce that old villas once stood etc.... ). Then you'd be outside the scope of any laws applying to the use of public land.

 

[jagchaser]

Ok, you've seen some good threads, presumably with show & tell of md'rs find from there, right ?



Do those "few good threads" you allude to have only beach-comber finds, and no land-hunter finds ?



If persons are detecting there no problem (as evidenced by the few good threads), then .... obviously , somehow, people are md'ing there, and it must not be an issue. If you are worried still though, how about sticking to private farmers fields with permission (like where you can deduce that old villas once stood etc.... ). Then you'd be outside the scope of any laws applying to the use of public land.

I wish it was a simple as one would assume by looking at pictures of posts. Here is what I have found out so far. Only an archeologist can unearth something older than 1913. Not sure if it applies to only public lands yet or not.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I wish it was a simple as one would assume by looking at pictures of posts. Here is what I have found out so far. Only an archeologist can unearth something older than 1913. Not sure if it applies to only public lands yet or not.

Well I was being sort of tongue-in-cheek with my prior post. To put the ball in your court to realize that old finds are being made on land, from Russia (as evidenced by various forum show-&-tell posts). But you're saying that whatever Russian finds you see, you can't tell if they're 1) beach finds, versus 2) land finds ? I can assure you there's land finds being made that are old (yes, older than 1913).

Jagchaser, I know you mean well, but it would be a little like this: If a Russian tourist were to come to the USA, and worry himself silly, he might be worried that ARPA forbids him from digging items older than 50 or 100 yrs. old here in the USA.

And sure, I bet if he asked enough purist archies here, he might even find a few that agree with him on that interpretation. So too might the situation be there. If you keep asking long and hard enough, you'll find a lot of "no's". But let me ask you: Who's scrutinizing each object you find ? And even if it's true and religiously enforced in the forests in the middle of nowhere, does it also apply to private farmer's lands with their permission ?

If it's really a problem, why are we seeing show & tell posts coming from Russia ?

I'm not saying to throw caution to the wind. Sure, don't tromp on historic sensitive monuments (which was no doubt the *intent* of such laws). But ...

 

[Oddjob]

I have hunted there about 20 or 25 times since 2013. The law is not bad, basically no historical sites, if in city parks on in the sand areas, on beaches before 0800 and after 2000, no former military area because their definition of Cleared & Demilitarized is not the same as any NATO country.

Best thing you can do is find some fellow MD folks there, pretty easy to do just look on Russian Hunting & Fishing forums. Maybe send up a post for Russia through here, state where you will be at. I personally only know like 8 hunters in the entire country, and that is what they do for a living.

Just what ever you do, don't take Snowden along with you. He will leak everything to the press.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I have hunted there about 20 or 25 times since 2013......

So in those "20 to 25 times", have you ever (gasp) found an item older than 1913 ? If so, do you feel like you were breaking any laws ? What is the average response from average-persons who happen-chance bumps into you ?

 

[Peyton Manning]

just do it, what's the worst they could do to you?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I knew a guy who got to hunt in the Russian satellite state countries JUST BEFORE the iron-curtain fell. Not sure what laws applied then, as opposed to this 2013 revisions, but I will say this:

He got to hunt there d/t he was brought by a Russian university professor, who used his contacts with university archaeological dept's (they enlisted the help of some american md'rs at various sites). This Russian guide was preparing to do additional trips in the future, so I contacted him about possibly signing up. This was now right after the iron curtain had fallen (very early 1990s)

During that conversation, I played the devil's advocate and asked: "What's to stop anyone from merely flying over there as a tourist, and simply metal detecting?" Since the iron curtain had just fallen. The guide was adamant that it was totally illegal, and no detecting could be done w/o the authority he'd lined up with his university credentials, blah blah blah.

So I then talked to my original friend, who'd gone on one of the earlier trips. And quite frankly asked him what the average response was, from passerbys, average folk, etc... He said that in ALL the time they'd detected (multiple fields, castle sites, etc....) they'd never been "carded" (so-to-speak) by anyone. Just a few various hosts pointing out "here's where you'll hunt this morning", etc... And whenever anyone did stop to gawk and ask questions, it was of genuine curiousity, and then asking the americans to 'come try here' or "go try there" pointing to their land down the road, or sites they'd line up next, etc....

And my friend said that at night's, when they'd hit the bars for an adult beverage, that whenever casual conversations revealed they were americans, they'd be immediate hits with the locals. Getting invitations to go to people's homes for dinner etc....

So FAR from being some "scary place" with "oodles of people waiting to hate md'rs" and "pounce on you for your priveledges/credentials/laws", my friend saw strictly the opposite.

 

[jagchaser]

I knew a guy who got to hunt in the Russian satellite state countries JUST BEFORE the iron-curtain fell. Not sure what laws applied then, as opposed to this 2013 revisions, but I will say this:

He got to hunt there d/t he was brought by a Russian university professor, who used his contacts with university archaeological dept's (they enlisted the help of some american md'rs at various sites). This Russian guide was preparing to do additional trips in the future, so I contacted him about possibly signing up. This was now right after the iron curtain had fallen (very early 1990s)

During that conversation, I played the devil's advocate and asked: "What's to stop anyone from merely flying over there as a tourist, and simply metal detecting?" Since the iron curtain had just fallen. The guide was adamant that it was totally illegal, and no detecting could be done w/o the authority he'd lined up with his university credentials, blah blah blah.

So I then talked to my original friend, who'd gone on one of the earlier trips. And quite frankly asked him what the average response was, from passerbys, average folk, etc... He said that in ALL the time they'd detected (multiple fields, castle sites, etc....) they'd never been "carded" (so-to-speak) by anyone. Just a few various hosts pointing out "here's where you'll hunt this morning", etc... And whenever anyone did stop to gawk and ask questions, it was of genuine curiousity, and then asking the americans to 'come try here' or "go try there" pointing to their land down the road, or sites they'd line up next, etc....

And my friend said that at night's, when they'd hit the bars for an adult beverage, that whenever casual conversations revealed they were americans, they'd be immediate hits with the locals. Getting invitations to go to people's homes for dinner etc....

So FAR from being some "scary place" with "oodles of people waiting to hate md'rs" and "pounce on you for your priveledges/credentials/laws", my friend saw strictly the opposite.

That has been my exact experience there also, but my previous trips have not been with a detector. My main concern is not getting grief while hunting, but getting past border control when I leave with my detectors. Im tempted to try to mail my finds back separately or sell my detectors there and haul my finds with me. I have a feeling that finds and detectors in the same bag may give me grief lol.

I have lined up a few locals to go with. Only ones I will meet thru friends of friend, I posted on a few sites there and all they had to say was "hope you like russian prison"! Sounded like they didn't want anyone else horning in on their spots, and maybe a little anti american feeling going on right now with economy.

 

[Oddjob]

So in those "20 to 25 times", have you ever (gasp) found an item older than 1913 ? If so, do you feel like you were breaking any laws ? What is the average response from average-persons who happen-chance bumps into you ?

Yes I have found some older items and no I did not feel like was breaking any laws because the agency I work for does not recognize most laws of Russia in the matters of profiteering.

 

[gabberbob]

I can tell features of private excavation in Russia if you go to my city, I can keep the company.If you have questions regarding the law on excavation in Russia, then can ask me.

 

[gabberbob]

Unfortunately, poorly I know English, and I can't understand sense of the previous conversation completely. But if you ask me a question, I will answer it

 

[jagchaser]

I can tell features of private excavation in Russia if you go to my city, I can keep the company.If you have questions regarding the law on excavation in Russia, then can ask me.

I just got back from Rostov. I had a good trip and found lots of cools stuff. Thanks for the offer!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

So the recent additions to this thread are very revealing to the psychology of legality vs metal detecting.

It just goes to show that if you do enough google searches (eg.: "Is metal detecting in Russia legal?"). You will most certainly find some "scary post" or someone who found a "no". Or if you ask enough archies in that country (or even archies here about USA hunting for that matter), you will most certainly find someone who says "no" (because perhaps they're couching it in terms of shipwreck salvor laws, or sacred historic monuments, etc...).

Yet the REALITY is something completely different. That ... so long as you're using common sense, detecting is going on all the time.

I saw this psychology play out in city parks in the USA, where .... detecting had never been an issue before. Until someone (bless their little hearts) took it upon themselves to go asking at city hall "Can I?". So I began to wonder if they same psychology (of swatting hornet's nests and asking silly questions of bored bureaucrats) doesn't ALSO apply on a National scale in other countries. And yes, it most certainly happens.

And the sad part is, the *moment* any sort of uncertainty happens (a single assertion or scary post saying something), Guess what happens ? Skittish people then ONLY START ASKING MORE, thus only accelerating the very "no's". Ie.: a vicious circle of self-fulfilling cycle Sometimes I wish md'rs would just "grow a set" and just go detecting. Sure, use common sense, but for pete's sake , STOP ALL THIS GROVELLING nonsense.

 

[SuchMuch]

Actually metal detecting is not prohibited in RU and legislation doesn't prohibit metal detecting, but practically it's highly not recommended to have finds older than 100 years with you. Recovered firearms, ammos are the items those should be avoided having with you as well or they should be deactivated. It's prohibited to hunt on archaeological sites or sites of historical interest. Some sites are known, some sites are kept in secret by archaeologists. Majority of police staff believes you are a hunting for ammos and firearms, they see no difference between WW2 enthusiasts and relic hunters.

There are some regions where detectorists are not welcome and hunting there should be done at nights or far away from villages. These regions are noted to have road bill boards those suggesting people to call a police if they spot a metal detectorist. Lol.

The trick to hunting in RU is to keep away from police, that's why I go for forests, wear camo and have a binoculars with me (field hunting) . If you notice strange guys or police approaching you, throw finds away

 

[perdidogringo]

Actually metal detecting is not prohibited in RU and legislation doesn't prohibit metal detecting, but practically it's highly not recommended to have finds older than 100 years with you. Recovered firearms, ammos are the items those should be avoided having with you as well or they should be deactivated. It's prohibited to hunt on archaeological sites or sites of historical interest. Some sites are known, some sites are kept in secret by archaeologists. Majority of police staff believes you are a hunting for ammos and firearms, they see no difference between WW2 enthusiasts and relic hunters.

There are some regions where detectorists are not welcome and hunting there should be done at nights or far away from villages. These regions are noted to have road bill boards those suggesting people to call a police if they spot a metal detectorist. Lol.

The trick to hunting in RU is to keep away from police, that's why I go for forests, wear camo and have a binoculars with me (field hunting) . If you notice strange guys or police approaching you, throw finds away

Great post, SuchMuch! Full of practical information on hunting in Russia. It sounds a lot like detecting in a Central American country where hunt sometimes. I go WAY deep into the jungles where there is nobody around to do my detecting in private.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Actually metal detecting is not prohibited in RU and legislation doesn't prohibit metal detecting, but practically it's highly not recommended to have finds older than 100 years with you. ...

Yes. Great post such-much. I wish more md'rs would "grow a set" like you, instead of running around accelerating the very thing they fear.

You say to "just don't have any coins older than 100 yrs. on you". However, I must ask, in all seriousness, when was the last time you were ever "carded" by someone armed with a calculator to do the math on the age of each coin you found ? I mean, have you EVER had someone come up and riffle through your apron inspecting each coin ? For that matter, given the vast history of Russia, and the vast size, I'm sure it's not hard to research out prior villas that existed in what's now in the middle of nowhere. Or under a fallow farmer's row crop field, etc... Is it even likely that some "concerned archie" is even roaming around such odd areas IN THE FIRST PLACE ?

 

[SuchMuch]

You say to "just don't have any coins older than 100 yrs. on you". However, I must ask, in all seriousness, when was the last time you were ever "carded" by someone armed with a calculator to do the math on the age of each coin you found ? I mean, have you EVER had someone come up and riffle through your apron inspecting each coin ?

I was never checked by a police and I will avoid dealing with them by all means even if I have to run away. As to others they have no right to check me whoever they are.

Actually it's forbidden to disturb cultural ground layer that is older than 100 years even if you have no metal detector with you and you aren't a detectorist. Finds older than 100 years could be treated as evidence of illegal archaeological activity and in worth cases could lead to 6 years of imprisonment. If detectorist is caught on archaeological site by a police with finds, dirty spade, metal detector that's really bad. Metal detector, bulldozer (some guys practice removing upper ground layers with bulldozers) could be treated as evidence of illegal archaeological activity. There was a real story when guys removed upper ground layer with bulldozer near old church and proceeded hunting with metal detectors. FSB (former KGB) caught them and made a news Their finds and trash they picked up were passed to experts (archaeologists) and were identified. I saw that report where a bottle cap dated 1930-1940 years was declared as historical valuable item. Lol. There is archaeological society under name "Amator" which goal is to "protect" history from detectorists. Every time they notice a detectorist, they call a police. I've never met them.

Practically it's almost not possible to accuse you if you have no finds or you have no metal detector or spade (but you have finds). By the way, hunting for hoards is not prohibited, meteorite hunting is not prohibited, gathering old rusted iron for recycling is not prohibited, beach detecting is not prohibited, recovering lost keys and rings is not prohibited.

Here you are some universal rules when hunting in RU:
- you are not a detectorist, you are just a guy who gather large surface rusted iron for purpose of recycling
- spade is universal tool that is used as third leg and prevents from falling. Sometimes you use it as crowbar when large iron is found
- you do not practice archaeological reconnaissances, archaeological digs or whatever archaeological. You don't dig ground, you just gather surface rusted iron
- If you failed to throw finds out, finds should bare no ground particles. These items you bought on local market and decided to test metal detector
- never confirm police the things they want you to confirm. If it's not a police, you can avoid dealing with them by telling them "F..k you"

Above is not a cure but could help you.

Even if I ever caught by a police, I would rather run away and throw finds away. Lol. By the way, police do not shoot citizens until citizen treat them with a knife or firearms.

But the best tactics would be avoid dealing with people. Forests are large and there are lots of sites where detectorist's foot ever stepped over