updates on russian detecting law?

[Tom_in_CA]

Good to hear from Russian hunters! I had a friend here who .... shortly after (or maybe slightly before?) the fall of the iron curtain, got to hunt some of the Soviet Satellite states (transylvania, for example). And he described one field they came to (he had a guide) where this potato field was said to have been a middle ages villa or market or post or something. They started digging relic and coins non-stop ! His stories always made me wonder about simply flying in, after the iron curtain fell, and simply driving around to do something similar. But alas, in this last 25-ish years, there's been no shortage of Russians who now have modern electronics, who are now busy doing their research, haha

.... Actually it's forbidden to disturb cultural ground layer that is older than 100 years even if you have no metal detector with you and you aren't a detectorist. Finds older than 100 years could be treated as evidence of illegal archaeological activity ...

Are you sure that's not just for public land ? (ie.: and has no bearing on private farmer land with permission, when you're "helping him find his lost plow blade" ?). So too do we have similar "100 yr. laws" in the USA too ("Arpa"). But a closer examination shows they only apply to federal (and in some arguments ... state). Yet not down to county or city level. AND CERTAINLY not to private land. So are you sure the laws you speak of there are "border to border" and even down to private land ? Such that ... heaven forbid a farmer found a 101 yr. old coin when digging in his own garden ?

.... There was a real story when guys removed upper ground layer with bulldozer near old church and proceeded hunting with metal detectors. FSB (former KGB) caught them and made a news ...

There will ALWAYS be fluke over-zealous archie stories, in any country. And for pete's sake, you can hardly call "using a bulldozer" to be "inconspicuous", eh ? If I were to run my life by "fluke stories" of "what if's", I wouldn't even leave my front door in the morning . For fear I'd be "attacked by a bear". And never cross the street "lest I be hit by a car", etc.....

.... Practically it's almost not possible to accuse you if you have no finds or you have no metal detector or spade (but you have finds). By the way, hunting for hoards is not prohibited, meteorite hunting is not prohibited, gathering old rusted iron for recycling is not prohibited, beach detecting is not prohibited, recovering lost keys and rings is not prohibited....

Then it sounds like someone would have to REAL LAME to run afoul of laws there. Eg.: waltzing about at archie conventions wearing neon yellow waving ancient coins around ? Same for here.

.... Forests are large and there are lots of sites where detectorist's foot ever stepped over

Same answer I got from someone in Spain, who bought a detector I had listed on Ebay. When I asked "how do you do it ?" or "is it legal" type questions , he ...at first, showed the legal loopholes (eg.: modern vs ancient, private vs public land, etc....). Then he said .... quite frankly ... they're so far back in the woods and fields that there's no one around to "care", in the first place .

 

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[SuchMuch]

Are you sure that's not just for public land ? (ie.: and has no bearing on private farmer land with permission, when you're "helping him find his lost plow blade" ?). So too do we have similar "100 yr. laws" in the USA too ("Arpa"). But a closer examination shows they only apply to federal (and in some arguments ... state). Yet not down to county or city level. AND CERTAINLY not to private land. So are you sure the laws you speak of there are "border to border" and even down to private land ? Such that ... heaven forbid a farmer found a 101 yr. old coin when digging in his own garden ?

Private land is a garden, the rest belongs to country (public). Even farmers' lands are just lands used by farmers for agricultural purposes, but the owner is country itself. You cannot buy this or that field, it could be passed to you by country for some period of time. There is a constitution that declares ground, oil, gas, minerals belongs to nation and bla-bla-bla. Some farmers could illegally insist it's their own fields and say detectorists are thieves etc, the best is to migrate to another field and return later at night. In any case subject farmers could not apply to police until you damage growing plants and damaged plants are the only reason police can deal with you.

And for pete's sake, you can hardly call "using a bulldozer" to be "inconspicuous"

If you remove upper 50 cm ground layer already hunted to death and then return to defaults. Why not. But such activity and metal detecting should be forbidden on historical/cultural and archaeological sites.

Same answer I got from someone in Spain, who bought a detector I had listed on Ebay. When I asked "how do you do it ?" or "is it legal" type questions , he ...at first, showed the legal loopholes (eg.: modern vs ancient, private vs public land, etc....). Then he said .... quite frankly ... they're so far back in the woods and fields that there's no one around to "care", in the first place .

There is no sense to hunt on archaeological sites with common metal detectors, these sites should had already been cleaned by all kind of "black" & "white" archaeologists. I think, it's just a waste of time

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... But such activity and metal detecting should be forbidden on historical/cultural and archaeological sites.


There is no sense to hunt on archaeological sites with common metal detectors, these sites should had already been cleaned by all kind of "black" & "white" archaeologists. I think, it's just a waste of time

Sure. Fine. By all means. So too is it here in the USA, where .... even the most hardcore md'ing is not going to dispute that we should be able to pillage sensitive historical monuments, archie sites, etc.... Ie.: Shiloh, Bodie, Ghettysburg, etc...., we would agree that .... some things are just sacred.

HOWEVER , for the middle of farmer's fields, or in the middle of remote forests where no one cares, then..... despite the govt. crown-owning all resources of the land, ... my math would get real bad in a heartbeat.

Britain too has laws about all resources (which would include antiquities) in the ground "belong to the crown". So that, for example, if you strike oil on your land, you are not rich. The govt. comes in and gets the riches of the oil drilling, not the Beverly Hillbilly story of the USA. However, in Britain, they are not going to tell you "give us all old coins". They only claimn a very historical valuable item (a cache, blah blah). Run of mill individual coins (even gold coins) that can even date back to Roman times, are not confiscated or demanded from the md'rs.

But it sounds like the technical rule of Russia, is that not only do they have a similar "crown owns" type laws, but that they don't have the brains or generosity, as Britain does, to save the claim for the bigger worthwhile stuff .

And so too does Mexico have something similar that stretches even to private land. And if a person asked enough Mexican archies and lawyers, I bet they'd probably also find some silly age cutoff date, or whatever. But you'd be hard pressed in Mexico to find anything who's ever thought to make this "technical" reach, and actually care less about individual coins, of ANY age. And the hobby goes on there all the time. And they find (gasp) old coins. And no one goes asking archies and lawyers silly questions. So things remain fine just the way they are

 

[SuchMuch]

But it sounds like the technical rule of Russia, is that not only do they have a similar "crown owns" type laws, but that they don't have the brains or generosity, as Britain does, to save the claim for the bigger worthwhile stuff .

Briefly Russian government could be described as gangster that demands money and give nothing in return and this covers all aspects of life. As to finds, they accept the only one way: pass finds to museum (and museum workers will sell or "loose" the item), if it's a hoard, 50 percent of hoard cost should be returned to a person who found the hoard. There were issues when rare gold coins were valued as a common scrap of gold and half price of a gold scrap was returned to finders. Lol.

The best deal with Russian goverment is no deal. I have already shared on forum that should I found a valuable hoard I'd rather get it buried under 4 meters ;P

 

[jagchaser]

I did pretty well this summer. When I was in Russia, most of my detecting was at abandon homesites in tiny villages up and down the mius river in the Rostov region. These were originally German settlements from the time of Catherine the great. I would just drive around until I found likely looking abandon places and just go to detecting. I never had anyone give me any grief. I did dig some WWII relics in a field near Taganrog. It was a watermelon field being worked by the farmer. He was just curious what I might find.

The only grief I did have was at security at the Rostov airport on our way to Moscow. I found the intact fins from a mortar. The guy manning the X-ray machine recognized it immediately. I had to open my bag and give up all my WWII bullets and the fins. He ran my bag back thru the machine a handful of times until we dug them all out. They didn't ask about coins or anything else. My wife was carrying all the 1800's silver and coppers I found in her change pouch of her purse, just in case.

I had a little scare in Armenia. We were driving out of Yerevan the morning after the coup in Turkey and I guess some rebels had tried some silliness there in Yerevan also. The army searched my rental car and kind of freaked out over the detecting equipment, because they didn't know what it was.

 

[SuchMuch]

My wife was carrying all the 1800's silver and coppers I found in her change pouch of her purse, just in case.

You are a risky guy! If they found those coins your wife could be accused as a smuggler. Any coin older than 100 years is prohibited to leave RU, some coins older than 50 years are just limited to leave RU territory, limited means it has certificate that allows it to pass the border. I don't think she would had been imprisoned, but all stuff would had been confiscated and she would had been prevented to visit RU for, let say, next 3 or 5 or x years.

 

[Deft Tones]

Risked his wife! OMG...He's a real pirate!

Oh, man. What a story that could be.

 

[jagchaser]

You are a risky guy! If they found those coins your wife could be accused as a smuggler. Any coin older than 100 years is prohibited to leave RU, some coins older than 50 years are just limited to leave RU territory, limited means it has certificate that allows it to pass the border. I don't think she would had been imprisoned, but all stuff would had been confiscated and she would had been prevented to visit RU for, let say, next 3 or 5 or x years.

Its possible but not likely. She still has her RU passport, and it wouldn't have been the first time I handed them my passport with $$ inside. I was driving all over, from Taganrog, to Matveev Kurgan, Rostov, all the way down to Novorossiysk. I got pulled over plenty of times, some were my fault others were just because he was thirsty. She was carrying other family historical items too, so I would have bet the worst case would have been confiscation.

 

[jagchaser]

Suchmuch, have you ever tried to mail that type of stuff out of RU? I was going to do that, but DHL in Taganrog said they had to inspect everything before the box was sealed. I didn't have much hopes of anything valuable making it out if they knew what was in it. I see Russian sellers on eBay selling old coins all the time, and I was just curious if you know how it can be done.

 

[SuchMuch]

Suchmuch, have you ever tried to mail that type of stuff out of RU? I was going to do that, but DHL in Taganrog said they had to inspect everything before the box was sealed. I didn't have much hopes of anything valuable making it out if they knew what was in it. I see Russian sellers on eBay selling old coins all the time, and I was just curious if you know how it can be done.

Smuggling old stuff could lead to a jail in RU and there are lots of cases when persons were imprisoned. The same could happen when old stuff is send by post. Common old coins will be just confiscated, but should they find something valuable and there could happen worse than just confiscation. Russian passport is not a protection in this case. Do you know what Russian prison is? It's a real hell on earth. Avoid getting there by all means.

As to coins sent via post it looks like they are coming from Ukraine.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Smuggling old stuff could lead to a jail in RU and there are lots of cases when persons were imprisoned. The same could happen when old stuff is send by post. Common old coins will be just confiscated, but should they find something valuable and there could happen worse than just confiscation. Russian passport is not a protection in this case. Do you know what Russian prison is? It's a real hell on earth. Avoid getting there by all means.

As to coins sent via post it looks like they are coming from Ukraine.

Excuse me for the silly question, but if "jail is so imminent" for mailing old coins out of the country, then how do Russian sellers of old coins (like those selling on ebay that originate from within Russia) mail them ? As jagchaser says, there are coin collectors who buy/sell there, just like anywhere else in the world. And don't they mail them like any other commodity ?

The same fear of exporting antiquities is to be found in the middle east (holy land, Egypt, etc...) and EVEN MORESO, right ? Yet there are antiquity dealers right there in the tourist district . Eg.: old vases, coins, persian rugs, etc.... eh ? A friend of mine who was a tourist in those regions, when he bought a few such items, simply had the dealer ship them back to his home in the USA (because they have the export system "ironed out" as routine for them).

And my friend bought some ancient coins from a street-side vendor, and simply brought them home in his luggage. He said that if he'd had anything to fear (which he didn't) he'd have asked the guy who shipped his carpet and vase to inc. a few other items in with the shipment. Believe me, at the airport they have bigger fish to fry (weapons, drugs, etc....).

And you can't get more strict on cultural heritage than some of those near east countries, so what's with all the fuss about Russia ? Not saying to throw caution to the wind, but on the other hand, it's possible to "over-think" some things.

 

[perdidogringo]

Excuse me for the silly question, but if "jail is so imminent" for mailing old coins out of the country, then how do Russian sellers of old coins (like those selling on ebay that originate from within Russia) mail them ? As jagchaser says, there are coin collectors who buy/sell there, just like anywhere else in the world. And don't they mail them like any other commodity ?

The same fear of exporting antiquities is to be found in the middle east (holy land, Egypt, etc...) and EVEN MORESO, right ? Yet there are antiquity dealers right there in the tourist district . Eg.: old vases, coins, persian rugs, etc.... eh ? A friend of mine who was a tourist in those regions, when he bought a few such items, simply had the dealer ship them back to his home in the USA (because they have the export system "ironed out" as routine for them).

And my friend bought some ancient coins from a street-side vendor, and simply brought them home in his luggage. He said that if he'd had anything to fear (which he didn't) he'd have asked the guy who shipped his carpet and vase to inc. a few other items in with the shipment. Believe me, at the airport they have bigger fish to fry (weapons, drugs, etc....).

And you can't get more strict on cultural heritage than some of those near east countries, so what's with all the fuss about Russia ? Not saying to throw caution to the wind, but on the other hand, it's possible to "over-think" some things.

These are all good questions, Tom. In the end, I think it depends on how lucky you're feeling that day. In that, most probably you will be fine, however, if you are incredibly unlucky that day it could lead to a very unpleasant experience.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

These are all good questions, Tom. In the end, I think it depends on how lucky you're feeling that day. In that, most probably you will be fine, however, if you are incredibly unlucky that day it could lead to a very unpleasant experience.

Perdidongringo, what you're saying can be said about ANYTHING. Eg.: a discussion of "do you or don't you walk out the door of your house in the morning?". Afterall, you *might* be unlucky and mowed down by a Mack truck.

If I were detecting there, ... and found some old coins, I HIGHLY DOUBT anyone at the airport is "riffling through you're underwear in your suitcase" examining the dates on coins. Don't those things just check for weapons and drugs and such ?

But assuming for the moment that you're "petrified that armed archies are waiting to jump out at airports". Ok, then simply have them sent to you buy an ebay dealer-of-coins from the country. Heck, he can even run a "for sale" ad, you "buy" it, and presto, he sends it to you. Bear in mind that coin collecting is nothing new. People have bought and sold antiquities across borders for years. There's nothing at all to stop anyone from "buying an antiquity from a Russian" right here and now, via the marvel-of-the-internet. Or you can walk into any antique shop there (or brick & mortar coin store) , and "buy a coin", right ? Ok, then how does THAT person "get the coin out of the country" if there's such an all-fired imminent threat of "jail" ?

I have no doubt that if you asked purist archies in Russia, then SURE, they can ALWAYS cite "dire sounding things" (they hate md'rs afterall). But that would be a little like asking a PETA rep (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) the following question: "Hi. Can I leave my pet bunny in the car while I run into 7-11 to get a soda?". They would screech: "NOOooo ! The bunny will suffer in the hot sun! You will be guilty of animal cruelty charges! You will be ticketed and your car confiscated ! How can you be so cruel !!??" Heck, they might even be able to cite laws (animal cruelty laws) that seem to backup what they are saying ! But SERIOUSLY NOW: Did anyone except an animal rights wacko care for a minute about this ? Of course not. So too do I put little stock into what some purist archie's say.

Not saying to throw caution to the wind, but sometimes I think md'rs overthink things. There are md'rs RIGHT NOW from Russia who are posting their finds (yes, even ancient coins) on md'ing show & tell forums. It's not impossible that they can enter the buy/sell/trade of numismatics. That collectors there end up with them, and float them subsequently on ebay, right ?

 

[SuchMuch]

Excuse me for the silly question, but if "jail is so imminent" for mailing old coins out of the country, then how do Russian sellers of old coins (like those selling on ebay that originate from within Russia) mail them ? As jagchaser says, there are coin collectors who buy/sell there, just like anywhere else in the world. And don't they mail them like any other commodity ?

Are sure that coins but not fakes are sold and posted? Within Russia you can post relics and coins without limits and there are lots of cases when coins are stolen by post personnel. There is no difficulty to figure coins as well as other metal objects in parcels.

The same fear of exporting antiquities is to be found in the middle east (holy land, Egypt, etc...) and EVEN MORESO, right ? Yet there are antiquity dealers right there in the tourist district . Eg.: old vases, coins, persian rugs, etc.... eh ? A friend of mine who was a tourist in those regions, when he bought a few such items, simply had the dealer ship them back to his home in the USA (because they have the export system "ironed out" as routine for them).

Russia is definitely not a middle East. My occupation is inbound/outbound freight forwarding and I can say there are significant changes in Russian Customs. For instance, Chief of Customs unfortunately escaped from being imprisoned last year, however he works in Customs no longer. Russian Customs is the most corrupted department in Russia and I can state it's being changed.

And you can't get more strict on cultural heritage than some of those near east countries, so what's with all the fuss about Russia ? Not saying to throw caution to the wind, but on the other hand, it's possible to "over-think" some things.

My advice from the heart: avoid dealing with RU officials by all means. They are stupid like horses, they are corrupted, they are useless and have no mercy. If you want to have original old RU coins, you'd better buy them from Ukraine.

 

[SuchMuch]

Perdidongringo, what you're saying can be said about ANYTHING. Eg.: a discussion of "do you or don't you walk out the door of your house in the morning?". Afterall, you *might* be unlucky and mowed down by a Mack truck.

If I were detecting there, ... and found some old coins, I HIGHLY DOUBT anyone at the airport is "riffling through you're underwear in your suitcase" examining the dates on coins. Don't those things just check for weapons and drugs and such ?

But assuming for the moment that you're "petrified that armed archies are waiting to jump out at airports". Ok, then simply have them sent to you buy an ebay dealer-of-coins from the country. Heck, he can even run a "for sale" ad, you "buy" it, and presto, he sends it to you. Bear in mind that coin collecting is nothing new. People have bought and sold antiquities across borders for years. There's nothing at all to stop anyone from "buying an antiquity from a Russian" right here and now, via the marvel-of-the-internet. Or you can walk into any antique shop there (or brick & mortar coin store) , and "buy a coin", right ? Ok, then how does THAT person "get the coin out of the country" if there's such an all-fired imminent threat of "jail" ?

I have no doubt that if you asked purist archies in Russia, then SURE, they can ALWAYS cite "dire sounding things" (they hate md'rs afterall). But that would be a little like asking a PETA rep (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) the following question: "Hi. Can I leave my pet bunny in the car while I run into 7-11 to get a soda?". They would screech: "NOOooo ! The bunny will suffer in the hot sun! You will be guilty of animal cruelty charges! You will be ticketed and your car confiscated ! How can you be so cruel !!??" Heck, they might even be able to cite laws (animal cruelty laws) that seem to backup what they are saying ! But SERIOUSLY NOW: Did anyone except an animal rights wacko care for a minute about this ? Of course not. So too do I put little stock into what some purist archie's say.

Not saying to throw caution to the wind, but sometimes I think md'rs overthink things. There are md'rs RIGHT NOW from Russia who are posting their finds (yes, even ancient coins) on md'ing show & tell forums. It's not impossible that they can enter the buy/sell/trade of numismatics. That collectors there end up with them, and float them subsequently on ebay, right ?

“ðè ãîäà çà äâå ìîíåòû // Í“Â.Ru
American guy was imprisoned for 3 years trying to cross border 2 coins: 1 ruble 1899 and 1 ruble 1924

êîíòðàáàíäà ìîíåò
yet another action on coins thoese were stopped at border

Check this one as well

use this official RU customs notice

There are md'rs RIGHT NOW from Russia who are posting their finds (yes, even ancient coins) on md'ing show & tell forums. It's not impossible that they can enter the buy/sell/trade of numismatics. That collectors there end up with them, and float them subsequently on ebay, right ?

Any person in RU can own relics, but they are not allowed to pick up objects those are older more than 100 years from the ground that's how officials see that. A new legal act was taken in RU, it forbids to sell ancient objects on RU territory, it concerns detectorists, collectors etc. They tried to oblige people to get their collections registered by officials. I'm sure RU officials sucked.

As to me, I do not post finds on RU forums, there were cases when archies took data from the web and applied to police. More over, all items you saw in my post were bought on local market

 

[Tom_in_CA]

such-much, I confess to not having done this exercise yet, but .... let's assume, for the moment, that there's coin collectors in Russia, right ? And that is not a forbidden hobby, for Russians to have old-coins of their own country, right ? I mean, Russians have access to Ebay, right ? Ok then, can they or can-they-not sell to persons out of the country ? If I bid on their coin, how do they get the coin to me ?

For example , the guy you say was "imprisoned for 3 yrs." for having an 1899 and 1924 coin on him, what if a tourist bought those coins legally while in country? What if I bid on those, and the Russian owner (who got them from his great great grandmother's attic collection) were to need to send them to me ? How can he get them to me ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

As for the prohibition of picking up "coins over 100 yrs. old", why then are we seeing Russians , right here and now, on show & tell md'ing forums, posting their coins that ARE INDEED older than 100 yrs ? Are you saying they're breaking the law ? We too (in the USA) have a "100 yr. law" too . It's called "Arpa". And I have no doubt that some purist archies would cite "jail for 3 yrs" and try to say it's for "all public land". And could even cite scary links. But as you can see, we can hunt here all sorts of places, despite. Not saying your "100 yr. rule" is exactly the same, but .... just saying "I wonder".

 

[SuchMuch]

Ok then, can they or can-they-not sell to persons out of the country ?

With last update to the legislation, Russian cannot sell old stuff to Russian in Russia. Is it clear? And forget about sending real coins abroad.

And that is not a forbidden hobby, for Russians to have old-coins of their own country, right ?

Right, but such collection should be registered by officials and they are supposed to inspect if all storage arrangements are done . And with latest legislation you are not allowed to sell a coin from the collection. The only way you can rid of them is to pass collection to museum


This is the democracy of thieves Putin

For example , the guy you say was "imprisoned for 3 yrs." for having an 1899 and 1924 coin on him, what if a tourist bought those coins legally while in country? What if I bid on those, and the Russian owner (who got them from his great great grandmother's attic collection) were to need to send them to me ? How can he get them to me ?

You cannot legally buy, but you can own. You cannot move yr collection outside of RU the other way than smugling.

 

[SuchMuch]

As for the prohibition of picking up "coins over 100 yrs. old", why then are we seeing Russians , right here and now, on show & tell md'ing forums, posting their coins that ARE INDEED older than 100 yrs ?

First of all, this is a foreign forum and all Forum Names do not correspond with original names. I very doubt RU officials read this forum. In any case guys are not afraid to post on RU forums and it's not an easy task to oblige them until they are caught with finds, dirty spade and metal detector. Cops aren't willing to deal with detectorists until there is an order. There are lots of newcomers who gave up with the hobby. The other guys just ignore and continue hunting, some preferred to move to forests. However, it's a bad idea to post finds on RU forums.

The difference between USA and RU is that most of legislation is not complied by citizens and officials. courts are useless.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

With last update to the legislation, Russian cannot sell old stuff to Russian in Russia. Is it clear? And forget about sending real coins abroad.....

Ok, here is a brief sampling of sales of old Russian coins, originating from within Russia: This is just a sampling I gathered from scrolling down the page of vintage ebay Russian coins, and eye-balling country of seller. I stopped collecting examples after just a few minutes. Hence I've only scratched the surface, and I'm sure there's more.

So you're telling me that these ebay sellers are blatantly violating the law there ? That not only can I not bid/buy these (because they can't ship it out of the country), but NOR TOO can a Russian buy them ?

Then what's up ? CERTAINLY it would not be hard for Russian officials to "crack down" on these scofflaws, find out their identity (by posing as a buyer) and BAM, bust them, eh ? How can they post such "for sale" items, in-lieu of what they're saying ?

I think I will go there now to one of these, and pose a question to the "ask the seller a question" tab. And ask "Can you ship this to the USA ? Are there any legal prohibitions ?" Just to play the devil's advocate. And I will let you know what they say.

Coin 1 Rouble 1853 s P B The Russian Empire Emperor Nicholas 1 | eBay

Russian Emress Maria Alexandrovna Siver Coin One Rouble Mint Condition | eBay

Silver Coin 1 Rouble 1896 s s B Nicholas II The Russian Empire | eBay