Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

[autofull]

it is still all legend guys. dig out the actual material proof, no pictures or affadavits please. and let people touch it. still a nice fiction story though.

 

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[gollum]

100 more bars to find and I know the area.
Good luck to all.

Good luck to you as well. Jolley thought he could just go right back and pick up as many as he wanted after 12 years (and he was the one helping to bury them). Part of the clip I didn't include was where Jolley said that Doc didn't let him see exactly where he would bury the bars. He would park, and Doc would carry the bars one or two at a time over a hill, or behind something. The only place he remembered for sure was the top of a little hill...........and it took him almost a year to find them.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

it is still all legend guys. dig out the actual material proof, no pictures or affadavits please. and let people touch it. still a nice fiction story though.

There was a ton of fraud talk coming from Noss until Ryan had finally had enough of it. There was lots of later Noss family maneuvering, trying to profit from the situation. Many books published. Maps. A media extravaganza onsite. Testimonials. Videos. Sworn affidavits. True believers. Lots of "documentation" proving the later journey of the bullion bars. The only naysayers seem to be government folks, and since they obviously did a ton of looking all over Victorio Peak, maybe they had a good reason to deny it.

Strange that nobody kept even one of those thousands of gold bars to show off to their pals. Nobody snapped even one measly photo of even one bar of gold. You'd think with all the insiders involved then, since and now, someone would have taken a few pics, huh? Or even one. Nope. You'd think one of Noss's many screwed investors would want at least a souvenir photo. Nope. What about all those GI's who were in the caves in the 50s? Nope. Jolley? Seems obvious he was helping Noss bury the bait bars that Noss had previously had refined from the Caballo copper bars.

The most interesting thing to emerge from this legend is Willie's book, in which he explains how the space brothers led him to his loot. Passport to Eternity

 

[gollum]

There was a ton of fraud talk coming from Noss until Ryan had finally had enough of it. There was lots of later Noss family maneuvering, trying to profit from the situation. Many books published. Maps. A media extravaganza onsite. Testimonials. Videos. Sworn affidavits. True believers. Lots of "documentation" proving the later journey of the bullion bars. The only naysayers seem to be government folks, and since they obviously did a ton of looking all over Victorio Peak, maybe they had a good reason to deny it.

Strange that nobody kept even one of those thousands of gold bars to show off to their pals. Nobody snapped even one measly photo of even one bar of gold. You'd think with all the insiders involved then, since and now, someone would have taken a few pics, huh? Or even one. Nope. You'd think one of Noss's many screwed investors would want at least a souvenir photo. Nope. What about all those GI's who were in the caves in the 50s? Nope. Jolley? Seems obvious he was helping Noss bury the bait bars that Noss had previously had refined from the Caballo copper bars.

The most interesting thing to emerge from this legend is Willie's book, in which he explains how the space brothers led him to his loot. Passport to Eternity

"Passport" was a work of fiction. Complete fiction. Willie/Lawrence liked space fiction. His wealth came from a cave in the Caballos.

Maybe you can explain how Bennie Samaniego bought several adjoining lots, and built a house on them shortly after leaving Doc's Employ? Where did he get the suit of armor he was pictured in many times?

What about Capt. William "Orby" Swanner who stated that he personally witnessed the US Government flatbed about 93 million troy ounces of gold from VP? After all, he was the Operations Officer at White Sands at the time. We know the Government said he lied and was never there.........until the lower caverns were reopened and his name was found sooted onto the wall just like he said it would be.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

"Passport" was a work of fiction. Complete fiction. Willie/Lawrence liked space fiction. His wealth came from a cave in the Caballos.

Maybe you can explain how Bennie Samaniego bought several adjoining lots, and built a house on them shortly after leaving Doc's Employ? Where did he get the suit of armor he was pictured in many times?

What about Capt. William "Orby" Swanner who stated that he personally witnessed the US Government flatbed about 93 million troy ounces of gold from VP? After all, he was the Operations Officer at White Sands at the time. We know the Government said he lied and was never there.........until the lower caverns were reopened and his name was found sooted onto the wall just like he said it would be.

Mike

So, Willie's koo-koo book was fiction, but his gold cave story was the straight truth? Willy may well have murdered someone to steal some nice traveling money, yes, but it seems like he also married a rich dame in CA. Check the earlier posts in these threads - someone fleshed all that out a few years ago. So, Willy and Doc - do you believe all their stories?

Yes, Noss had some gold. Bait gold. Sure, Benny got some dough for helping Noss, but Benny's truth meter wasn't very steady either. Again, read the earlier posts.

Swanner was likely in the lower caves, as were quite a number of other GI's and others. The question remains: 93 million ounces of gold, the biggest haul in American history, and nobody from the 1930s into the 1960s who claimed to have seen it took one photo of the stacks of bars? Why?

 

[autofull]

the peak story is a fairy tale. noss was a hoser, chandlers book is fiction and the trilogy is made up of chandlers book and the writings of a fiction writer. show me the beef. i too was a peak believer,once. wait till ya see the made up documents that are forthcoming. jcs is a dyed in the wool swindler. just like noss, poor guy believes his own rantings.

 

[Randy Bradford]

Swanner was likely in the lower caves, as were quite a number of other GI's and others. The question remains: 93 million ounces of gold, the biggest haul in American history, and nobody from the 1930s into the 1960s who claimed to have seen it took one photo of the stacks of bars? Why?

For the same reason I wouldn't take a picture of a pallet-load of counterfeit $100 bills or take pictures of a 55 gallon drum of cocaine...

 

[motel6.5]

The Jolly interview is non-fiction,no photos -no evidence,good practice. More than likely others have searched for the 100 buried bars,and maybe some caches have been found.The area itself where Noss cached the bars he was familiar with and probably cached them according to known desert landmarks that he reconized ,maybe just along a dry riverbed at milage markers he noted. Jolly said in the interview he would make notes after every cache. The area also is historic in nature do to its past history. Never know what might be dug up or located in a cave.-nothing tried,nothing gained.

 

[sdcfia]

For the same reason I wouldn't take a picture of a pallet-load of counterfeit $100 bills or take pictures of a 55 gallon drum of cocaine...

Are you serious? Human nature tells me that you are in a mighty small minority.

 

[autofull]

sdcfia, i became friends with jcs, trilogy author and having a few thousand hrs of phone conversation with him and then having him reside in my home for a year. as i stated, i was a believer. once.

 

[gollum]

So, Willie's koo-koo book was fiction, but his gold cave story was the straight truth? Willy may well have murdered someone to steal some nice traveling money, yes, but it seems like he also married a rich dame in CA. Check the earlier posts in these threads - someone fleshed all that out a few years ago. So, Willy and Doc - do you believe all their stories?

Yes, Noss had some gold. Bait gold. Sure, Benny got some dough for helping Noss, but Benny's truth meter wasn't very steady either. Again, read the earlier posts.

Swanner was likely in the lower caves, as were quite a number of other GI's and others. The question remains: 93 million ounces of gold, the biggest haul in American history, and nobody from the 1930s into the 1960s who claimed to have seen it took one photo of the stacks of bars? Why?

Steve,

There are photos. They guy that has them was an Army Photographer during WWII. A couple of people have spoken to him about the pics. From my understanding, he was open to the first person and told them about what he saw, he denied having any such photos to the second person. Maybe #1 lied, or maybe someone jumped his butt before #2 showed up. He is still alive and living in NM.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Steve,

There are photos. They guy that has them was an Army Photographer during WWII. A couple of people have spoken to him about the pics. From my understanding, he was open to the first person and told them about what he saw, he denied having any such photos to the second person. Maybe #1 lied, or maybe someone jumped his butt before #2 showed up. He is still alive and living in NM.

Mike

Mike, I know you're repeating this story in good faith, but ... well, you know how it goes.

 

[gollum]

Mike, I know you're repeating this story in good faith, but ... well, you know how it goes.

I know how the story goes, because the same thing happened with me concerning the Peralta Stone Maps. The daughter of the man that found/made them told me in no uncertain terms that her dad "was in no way part of any hoax". About a year before, she told someone that her dad made the stone maps. HAHAHA What to believe?

See, Autofull had a bad experience with JC. I think what he believes about VP was prejudiced by that. My experience was not just from him. As I am sure you may remember, I have spoken with and have known several of the people close to the subject.

Mike

 

[Randy Bradford]

Are you serious? Human nature tells me that you are in a mighty small minority.

Completely serious. Why would I take pictures of something that was illegal to own, knowing that that kind of proof would only lead to ruin. When the only people (government) that are allowed to own that gold also happen to own the property, it creates an interesting dilemma.

I'm no expert on cameras, but Noss' time to be able to take in a camera and take photos was short...however long it was between discovery and dynamiting the entrance. Nothing I've read suggests getting photography equipment down to the gold would have been easy, even if he wanted to take photos.

 

[sdcfia]

Completely serious. Why would I take pictures of something that was illegal to own, knowing that that kind of proof would only lead to ruin. When the only people (government) that are allowed to own that gold also happen to own the property, it creates an interesting dilemma.

I'm no expert on cameras, but Noss' time to be able to take in a camera and take photos was short...however long it was between discovery and dynamiting the entrance. Nothing I've read suggests getting photography equipment down to the gold would have been easy, even if he wanted to take photos.

The only dilemma in my mind for those who allegedly saw the stacks of gold bars would be resisting human nature. As we can see from the 6,000 years or so of currently available human history, that force is rarely resisted in extraordinary situations. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

As far as Noss is concerned - he was a total sociopath and had no problem avoiding doing "the right thing." In fact, he would have been greatly served by showing photos of stacks of gold bars to investors. Oh, I forgot - he dynamited the entrance to the treasure trove (he did WHAT?), requiring investors to take his word about the loot (his WORD?). [OT: I've got some doozey stories of similar shysters working the rubes in the Caballos].

Camera equipment? Just put a 35mm camera in your pack or coat pocket of course. Takes less space than your lunch. Here's a sampling of Noss-era cameras quickly found with a Google search. Reproduced as free-use photos.

 

[gollum]

The only dilemma in my mind for those who allegedly saw the stacks of gold bars would be resisting human nature. As we can see from the 6,000 years or so of currently available human history, that force is rarely resisted in extraordinary situations. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

As far as Noss is concerned - he was a total sociopath and had no problem avoiding doing "the right thing." In fact, he would have been greatly served by showing photos of stacks of gold bars to investors. Oh, I forgot - he dynamited the entrance to the treasure trove (he did WHAT?), requiring investors to take his word about the loot (his WORD?). [OT: I've got some doozey stories of similar shysters working the rubes in the Caballos].

Camera equipment? Just put a 35mm camera in your pack or coat pocket of course. Takes less space than your lunch. Here's a sampling of Noss-era cameras quickly found with a Google search. Reproduced as free-use photos.

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I can understand precisely why Doc wouldnt want to take pics of the bars.

If you know anything about the Government, you know that EVERYTHING has to be listed, annotated, counted, verified, and photographed. I have never heard of anything being photographed from the Noss Side of things. The Government is another story.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

I can understand precisely why Doc wouldnt want to take pics of the bars.

If you know anything about the Government, you know that EVERYTHING has to be listed, annotated, counted, verified, and photographed. I have never heard of anything being photographed from the Noss Side of things. The Government is another story.

Mike

Why would Noss not photograph the stacks of bars if they existed? Photos would certainly help prove his claims. It's not like the "treasure room" was a big secret - he was constantly promoting its existence. The "accidental" cave-in was a terrific excuse for not being able to produce any evidence. Of course, the bait bars (refined from the copper bars), failing their attempted legal sale, were then apparently used for a number of dog and pony shows, helping to entice people to invest in Noss's "recovery" scheme.

The government? I don't buy anything the government states, for any reason. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Randy Bradford]

Camera equipment? Just put a 35mm camera in your pack or coat pocket of course. Takes less space than your lunch. Here's a sampling of Noss-era cameras quickly found with a Google search. Reproduced as free-use photos.

View attachment 1642882

View attachment 1642883

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My friend, that was a savage schooling...remind me never to debate you.

 

[sdcfia]

I posted the following several years ago. It's still my favorite Caballos story.

The Caballo Craftsman Wrench
First, some background. Back in the 1970's, there was much small-time mining activity occurring in the New Mexico mining districts. One type of activity was to take advantage of the legitimate mining companies that were busy staking out large claim blocks in mineralized areas. Small-time operators were able to make money by selling legal claims to the bigger companies by virtue of holding 'nuisance groups' in the midst of the companies' larger holdings. A little courthouse research and some nimble claim staking could place a clever 'prospector' a step ahead of the big boys. This was traditional straightforward opportunism, common practice in mining districts for generations.

An unusual twist in the 1970's US tax code offered a new type of opportunity for mining people. Rich investors of all types found themselves with heavy tax obligations that could be offset by spending money in legitimate 'tax shelters'. Bona fide investments in legal business ventures that lost money was an advantage to people who otherwise would be obliged to turn the money over to the government as income tax. A popular speculative business loss to offset taxes was mining exploration/operation. Many claim stakers, geologists, miners, equipment operators, etc. were hired to burn money in those days by engaging in above-board, legitimate speculative mining ventures which everyone assumed would never turn a profit. Indeed, nobody made a profit, but a lot of money was spent creating jobs for the locals and these expenses offset a lot of taxes for the money guys. They had fun, saved money and created real work. A win-win deal.

One of the edgier 'investments' of the day was in treasure hunting scams. The Caballo Mountains were crawling with shady characters looking for investors to finance treasure recovery expeditions. After all, the Caballos were full of sealed caves full of Spanish gold bars, and those in the know were willing to sell shares in expensive recovery operations, as long as somebody else was willing to foot the bill. Some of the investors looked at the treasure hunts as a fun lark and an easy way to burn money. Some were gullible and believed they would soon be fabulously wealthy - very soon.

One particular recovery operation was led by two of T or C's most notorious scammers, both now deceased, who (well-known to locals) shall remain unnamed. The investment group was shown an old caved-in tunnel in the mountains, old maps, historical legends, scientific geotechnical reports, etc. and presented with a recovery plan that would cost lots of money. The two in charge would be due very steep salaries and operating expenses, and the gold bars would be divided among all involved when recovered. The contracts were signed, money was put up and the work began.

There was good progress at first clearing part of the tunnel and all were excited. Then there were many lengthy delays, all the time the two scammers drawing their generous paychecks. The investors were brought in routinely for progress meetings. Things dragged on. Lawyers were needed to burn the red tape. Equipment broke down and needed expensive repairs. New geotech scans (expensive!) were ordered and the results were very encouraging. Finally, after a couple of years, there was a breakthrough. A solid timbered plug was encountered in the tunnel - Spanish! Behind the door may lie the riches of the world. The investors were summoned to the site to be present for the big moment when the plug would be removed and all concerned could gaze, hopefully, on the stacks of gold bars.

The timbers came down and the scammers and their flock reverently entered the treasure chamber behind the big wooden door. They cautiously advanced further down the tunnel with high expectations, but no gold bars were found - only another cave-in! Damn! Well, only one thing to do - spend more money to remove the newest cave-in and keep progressing. As the disappointed investors turned to retrace their steps back towards the big wooden door and back out to the sunlight, one of them happened to shine his light off to the side near the cave-in and saw a metallic reflection! Gold?!? No, it was a big bright shiny Sears Craftsman adjustable wrench that must have slipped out of one of the scammers' tool belts after they faked the cave-in and before they built the big Spanish wooden door. The wrench was inadvertently left on the wrong side of the big door! Ooops!

This particular treasure hunt ended that day, but there have been plenty more since in the Caballos - it's a tradition.

 

[sdcfia]

My friend, that was a savage schooling...remind me never to debate you.

These are just discussions among friends. There are no winners or losers because there are generally no definitive answers. If we're open-minded, our working models tend to sway in the breezes as we consider all possibilities.