Went to Vermont, Connecticut, and New Jersey in an hour and a half.

hogge · Sep 13, 2017

3 state coppers, a large cent, Spanish 1 real, a KG III, and a Cft Irish half penny. Not bad for an hour and a half. I found the Conn,( my 16th), and the 1 real. DigginitRTB found the other 5. The Vermont is a COUNTERFEIT, close to Ryder 3 but letters and spacing don't match die. Coin is DEFINITELY a alloy based contemporary Cft. First I've seen. Waiting on call back from Tony Carlotto. Only posted clean pics of the Vt. The others, although identifiable, coins are shot. VT has file marks on edge.Hoping IP or DON can pipe in as this is a first for us. Never seen a contemporary Cft. VT.

Scrappy · Sep 15, 2017

Congrats on you friends potentially new Vermont variety. I very much hope it's as incredible as it now appears to be! Now I leave the variety matters up to the experts, but I have dug a lot of cast counterfeits. I must say just based off of the condition and sharpness, that coin does not look cast. In my experience, generally only genuine examples hold up that well in the ground. And the condition is incredible actually.

Congrats!!!!!!

Silvermonkey · Sep 15, 2017

What an insane haul. Really quite shocking. Big, big, big congratulations!

hogge · Sep 15, 2017

Iron Patch said:
Final thought. Given how sharp the coin is, not looking cast at all, at least to me, and especially that it would have be a cast counterfeit from 2 different coins... I can't see how this will not be a genuine VT new variety. That's what makes the most sense. Oh, unless it's a cast counterfeit of a variety that is not known to exist... so if it did happen to be cast I think that would be a plausible theory.

DARN IT.....IP...... We were both DUPED, I think....By the Ryder 3 on the COINFACTS Site. All the other examples I looked at, have the "PUBLICA" in a different position. Just like mine. NONE....are like the RR-3 in the coinfacts site. WTF! I think all we have is a RARE....RR-3 Vermont. I wanna SCREAM!

Honest Samuel · Sep 15, 2017

You did good.

Iron Patch · Sep 15, 2017

hogge said:
DARN IT.....IP...... We were both DUPED, I think....By the Ryder 3 on the COINFACTS Site. All the other examples I looked at, have the "PUBLICA" in a different position. Just like mine. NONE....are like the RR-3 in the coinfacts site. WTF! I think all we have is a RARE....RR-3 Vermont. I wanna SCREAM!

No way. They have the wrong coin shown, or at least one side? Unreal.

Professor of Engineering · Sep 15, 2017

Awesome hunt and fantastic old copper finds! :notworthy:

hogge · Sep 15, 2017

Iron Patch said:
No way. They have the wrong coin shown, or at least one side? Unreal.

I don't get it either. Always relied on their site and pics. Breens only shows the RR-2. EVERY other example, for sale or auction I've looked at has the same RR-3 obverse as ours. I think the coin facts obverse is wrong. It's not our fault, it's theirs. I'll message them and see if I get a response.

hogge · Sep 15, 2017

Anyway.....On a good note.... Tony Carlotto finally contacted me and will call me tomorrow. He wants to examine and weigh the coin. Probably see him next week and will
see what he says.

Scrappy · Sep 15, 2017

The condition is still outstanding no matter the outcome. I really enjoy seeing older coppers come out that nice. What a beauty

hogge · Sep 15, 2017

We have only been to this place for an hour and a half. There's NO WAY that we extracted all the coinage from there. It's a big place. I have high hopes, especially because of all the 1700s coins and 3 state coppers. Sunday night will be the next visit. CHEERS!

realeswatcher · Sep 15, 2017

hogge said:
DARN IT.....IP...... We were both DUPED, I think....By the Ryder 3 on the COINFACTS Site. All the other examples I looked at, have the "PUBLICA" in a different position. Just like mine. NONE....are like the RR-3 in the coinfacts site. WTF! I think all we have is a RARE....RR-3 Vermont. I wanna SCREAM!

If you examine that RR-3 specimen on CoinFacts closely... you'll see that the variant positioning is due to a partial double strike. See how garbled PUBLICA is?? You're seeing parts of both strikes there. Also note how the denticles are running right into VERMONTS.

The doubling is also clearly seen within the rays and stars on the reverse.

That piece, while it does have very nice surfaces, is not a good diagnostic example coin.

hogge · Sep 15, 2017

realeswatcher said:
If you examine that RR-3 specimen on CoinFacts closely... you'll see that the variant positioning is due to a partial double strike. See how garbled PUBLICA is?? You're seeing parts of both strikes there. Also note how the denticles are running right into VERMONTS.

The doubling is also clearly seen within the rays and stars on the reverse.

That piece, while it does have very nice surfaces, is not a good diagnostic example coin.

Even with the doubling, the lettering in PUBLICA is still so far off from where it is on known examples. Put the coin facts coin up and ours next to it. The "LICA" is way off. This is what IP and I both saw.

Silver Tree Chaser · Sep 15, 2017

Great coin recoveries. Digging multiple coppers is awesome. I look forward to hearing about the results of your next search.

realeswatcher · Sep 15, 2017

hogge said:
Even with the doubling, the lettering in PUBLICA is still so far off from where it is on known examples. Put the coin facts coin up and ours next to it. The "LICA" is way off. This is what IP and I both saw.

That's entirely due to the doubling. The dominant 2nd strike that includes the landscape (and the letter "P") is in a notably shifted position (offset maybe 2 mm or so?) vs. the still visible "BLICA" of the initial strike. Note that the slot where the "U" of PUBLICA should be has basically been squeezed out.

The offset is even more obvious where the " * V " actually appears in the still visible denticles of the initial strike.

Iron Patch · Sep 16, 2017

realeswatcher said:
That's entirely due to the doubling. The dominant 2nd strike that includes the landscape (and the letter "P") is in a notably shifted position (offset maybe 2 mm or so?) vs. the still visible "BLICA" of the initial strike. Note that the slot where the "U" of PUBLICA should be has basically been squeezed out.

The offset is even more obvious where the " * V " actually appears in the still visible denticles of the initial strike.

Agree.

Mystery solved. It's Ryder 3, nothing else. Hogge we got fooled by a weird combination of things, the coinfacts Ryder 3 obverse being double struck and not super obvious - and it by coincidence looking more like Ryder 2 than 3, and in addition to that it's a weak part of your coin we were matching to and judging based on that it seemed like it was Ryder 2. In hind sight in the confusion I abandon something I seen early on that made our Ryder2/Ryder3 theory impossible - and that is the placement of the 2nd tree. Quite a drag it really seemed like he had something special but what can you do. It's still a nice dug Ryder 3, but still sucks.

Iron Patch · Sep 16, 2017

It's still better than the "Ryder" I got yesterday.

Roger's Riders, Roy Rogers good luck token. :happysmiley:

May try again today.

hogge · Sep 16, 2017

Iron Patch said:
It's still better than the "Ryder" I got yesterday.

Roger's Riders, Roy Rogers good luck token. May try again today.

BWAHAHAHAHA! Good one! This is why it's kool being on this site. Great insight by other members with their help. I see what previous poster is saying. Still have very high hopes for our Sunday hunt. Damn..... I wanted $50,000! Although a new variety Vermont could have been a " sky is the limit" kind of price. Had serious doubts about that "new variety" thing though. CONNECTICUTS I can see new ones being discovered but highly unlikely Vermonts. I'm waiting on some goodies from you my friend..... You never disappoint. Thanks to "REALESWATCHER" too, for insight into coin. I'll post what Tony C has to say.

cheffer · Sep 16, 2017

Jesus Hogge, just reading through the Today's Finds and replied to your earlier post, but I had no idea until I got further down all this was going on. Holy cow, great find, no matter what it is so cool to generate this much interest. Love the early state coppers, and if anyone can help on more info it's Tony. He and my dad were close in the early years when detectors were first coming out and he was down in GB. Those guys found some amazing stuff around here when it was all just lying on top of the ground.

Congratulations, you always find amazing items. Would love to join you sometime, I'm just down the road! (and free on Sunday :happy3:

)

Steve

Iron Patch · Sep 16, 2017

hogge said:
BWAHAHAHAHA! Good one! This is why it's kool being on this site. Great insight by other members with their help. I see what previous poster is saying. Still have very high hopes for our Sunday hunt. Damn..... I wanted $50,000! Although a new variety Vermont could have been a " sky is the limit" kind of price. Had serious doubts about that "new variety" thing though. CONNECTICUTS I can see new ones being discovered but highly unlikely Vermonts. I'm waiting on some goodies from you my friend..... You never disappoint. Thanks to "REALESWATCHER" too, for insight into coin. I'll post what Tony C has to say.

If there is a bright side it was two known dies, so wouldn't have been as rare or as valuable as a completely new die. Still would have been something great though.