What a shame here in Oregon!

bigmike · Nov 13, 2018

Just wanted to rant and blow off some steam. Here in southeast oregon we have some of the best artifact hunting in the country. My grandpa, uncles, cousins and I have hunted them for years. The past couple years natives from up north have complained about people around here using equipment to dig up burial sites and selling artifacts and human remains online. They went to Salem and pitched a fit and next thing you know, the governor had department of state lands temporarily close the lakes to public access. So 2 years have went by and this year Department of state lands has meeting with public about permanent closures of lakes. They had to address local public in a meeting. End result is 2 lakes that are public property are closed down, can’t even ride an atv or run your dog out there. If you are caught you will get a warning and possibly trespassing ticket. If you have a firearm, which most people carry out in the desert, it could be a felony trespass ticket.
everyone I know that collects artifacts here does not sell them. There are people that do but I don’t know any personally. Never had I seen anyone using equipment digging for artifacts. I and all my friends and family consider it taboo to even mess with bones let alone sell them. It’s getting to be the time of year to go look for artifacts and all the good places are closed down. What a shame that a longtime hobby of my family and a lot of friends has been stripped from us! Too much government control on things anymore!
Sorry for the rant, wanted to let people know in case they visit here for artifacts so they don’t end up in court!

Mike

bowwinkles · Nov 13, 2018

Is that Malheur county??

rginn · Nov 13, 2018

What was the exact reason they gave for closing down access to what I guess now was formerly public property?

bigmike · Nov 13, 2018

No lake county

bigmike · Nov 13, 2018

It’s still public land actually. They closed it down because of the artifacts. At first we were allowed to go fishing and could be out there if there was a lot of water, but they finally made it to where it was a sensitive historical area and closed all access. You would think that being public land that are taxpayer funded that couldn’t happen but they are starting all this wilderness area and sensitive historical area labels to close down public lands.

Charl · Nov 13, 2018

I'm somewhat confused. On this artifact forum, as on the others that I frequent, we sometimes have to tell folks that collecting artifacts on public lands, be they federal, state, or local, is illegal. I believe in part this is done to protect both the forum itself, as well as the uninformed collector. For instance, if a newbie jumped in and said "hey, look at these arrowheads I collected in such and such national park", some might feel that the forum was condoning illegal collecting if the law was not explained. As well, nobody would want to see a collector get in trouble simply because of ignorance of the law.

Please understand I am not calling the OP into question. He knows what has been accepted activity in his neck of the woods way better then I do. Collecting artifacts on the shore of a lake doesn't strike me as any big deal. I collect on the shoreline of bays. It's the status as public land that confuses me. Is it legal to collect on public land anywhere else in Oregon? I admit I can't see closing all access to a parcel of public land, that in itself does not seem right, it's the legality of collecting artifacts on public land in Oregon that I'd like to be better educated regarding. Not that I'm ever going to collect in Oregon, because I am not. Maybe collecting on public land varies by state. Federal lands are off limits everywhere. I always thought state and local public lands were off limits for collecting as well, but I have been wrong plenty of times before.

justonemore · Nov 13, 2018

That sucks but Oregon is a big state with a lot of privately held land. Has to be a few good places still left to hunt artifacts there.

galenrog · Nov 13, 2018

Lake County is primarily Federal land. BLM and USFS. Corps of Engineers also controls a bit, as do other Federal agencies. Oregon Department of State Lands controls very little in Lake County, and does not control Federal lands, except when under lease or contract with a Federal agency. Which lakes are they now controlling?

Time for more coffee.

bigmike · Nov 13, 2018

They closed crump and goose lake. Those are state lands also

bigmike · Nov 13, 2018

Sorry if the post was misleading. I know that you are not able to collect on those lands. My issue is because its so large out here and limited resources for them to actively patrol, they decided to just permanently close the public lands to where you are no longer to even set foot on them to hunt, fish, ride atvs, hike or whatever else you would like to enjoy on them. so instead of having to actively patrol, if you are on the property at all your facing a trespass ticket. They did it this way so that theres no cat and mouse games of trying to catch a person artifact hunting, if your there your breaking the law period! I understand if I'm looking for artifacts I'm chancing a ticket, but to just close all that land like they did... what's next? Its setting other places up for the same kind of issues. When a Taxpayer cannot even set foot onto public lands to enjoy the outdoors that is too much government control. We out here are upset because they permanently closed thousands of acres for any kind of recreation.

ToddsPoint · Nov 14, 2018

You need to vote some people out of office or move to a friendlier state. Gary

Whitey9457 · Nov 14, 2018

I know this isn't going to be the popular view on this website but.... I believe collecting native artifacts on public land in Oregon is already illegal. Whether or not you are using equipment and whether or not you are disturbing known burial sites. You need a permit for state land and you're generally not allowed to collect artifacts of cultural or historic value (i believe generally over 75 years old). Even if you have a permit and you find artifacts, you're supposed to stop and tell officials. There are laws that prohibit collecting certain native objects on state, federal, AND private lands.

Oregon's history belongs to all Oregonians. Not just whoever is the first to dig it up. Some of the objects are the property of the respective tribes.

When a bunch of people keep breaking the law, you can't be surprised when there is a reaction. I don't think it would be better use of taxpayer dollars to start paying more people to guard and patrol the wilderness and make sure people aren't digging.

Laws:
Under Oregon State Law (ORS 97.740, ORS 358.905-358.961,
ORS 390.235, OAR 736-051-0090) significant archaeological
sites are protected on all non-federal public (state, county, city)
and private lands. Significance is based on the potential of an
archaeological site to be eligible for inclusion on the National
Register of Historic Places, which means the site possesses important
archaeological information on local, regional or national
level. Archaeological sites are considered significant until their
eligibility can be evaluated. Under state law, damage to archaeological
sites is a Class B Misdemeanor. Disturbance of Native
American human remains or associated funerary objects is considered
a Class C Felony with penalties up to a $10,000 fine.
Private Land Rights:
Archaeological sites on private land are owned by the landowner and the land cannot be taken
from the owner. The artifacts from a site are also the property of the land owner, except for Native
American human remains, burials, associated funerary objects, sacred objects, and objects of
cultural patrimony (ORS 97.740). No one is allowed on private land without owner consent, regardless
of the presence of an archaeological site. Since the site belongs to the landowner, An easy option for protecting
archaeological sites on
private land is to avoid them
altogether.
landowner is the steward. If located on private land, the state encourages landowners to avoid impacting
archaeological sites. Some activities that may already be occurring on your land (i.e.
plowing, grazing) and that have had limited impacts to an archaeological site, may continue unless
the archaeological site contains human remains, burials, sacred objects, objects of cultural patrimony,
and associated funerary objects.

There are many laws on the subjects too many to list right now...

sprailroad · Nov 14, 2018

Much is left to interpretation such as "Sacred object", who IS it that decides, for me, spent brass from a rifle is a "sacred object" and should only be disturbed by me, anyone else should be fined. See where you can go with this? Whitey, just WHO are these "bunch of people" that keep breaking the law, or is that just a coveniet phrase. So just to understand, if I should be driving through that area and I stop just to walk around out there because I like the peace and quiet, I can now be given some sort of ticket for walking around on public? land, and if I should spot a arrowhead and actually PICK IT UP!, I can lets say be arrested, because I am now a "criminal?" Case in point, "California", on "public" land, father and daughter walking on a hiking path, the girl picked up a few leaves to press in wax paper, yes, leaves. They were ordered to return the leaves to the ground by order of the park ranger, the leaves being public property, under threat of a fine. No joke. No, I can't tell you the name of that park anymore, just remember my disbelief at the time. NFS lands, 100 yrs old?, nope, THEY say 50yrs old. I asked a ranger one time, how can he tell the difference between a Mason jar that is 49yrs old, and one that is 51yrs old. He did not like that question. I get the human remains part, and sure, lets not dig holes in the dry lake bed with a back-hoe, I get that, but aimlessly walking around looking for a arrowhead, (remember MY sacred objects, spent brass?), I too am blowing off a little steam, just seems with a ever increasing population, along with ever increasing laws, rules & regulations and government mixed in, we might just hang up the detectors, because digging a four inch hole is illegal in many places because someone says it is for whatever reason. I can go on & on about this, and have to long already.

sprailroad · Nov 14, 2018

Sorry fella's, I have a little extra to add. If Crump and Goose lakes are now off limits, then the entire area should be clearly posted around the entire area , stating that NO trespassing on public land by the public for any reason. I mean clearly posted by signs say every two hundred feet, paid for by federal tax dollars of course. Otherwise, a simple headed guy like me might cross that invisible line out there, and suddenly be surrounded by a swat team along with the black helicopter. What would happen to me and my poor dog, just saying......

bigmike · Nov 14, 2018

I agree Gary! Working on it&#55357;&#56397;

bigmike · Nov 14, 2018

They at one point were actively flying it and troopers staged and stopped people leaving. Several people got ticketed and had to go to court.

bigmike · Nov 14, 2018

I agree with you totally! Who is the one that decides what is sacred

I went to original meeting and native lady said she witnessed bones being dug up and saw skull for sale on internet. My friend was looking it up to find it and he found a crystal skull that said native artifact for sale. The native lady couldn’t remember the site and didn’t have any printouts of it she just said she knew what she saw. The only equipment out there is a rancher that owns property that borders state land and he raises alfalfa for his cattle and uses hay equipment for his business. Never have I or any one of my friends ever seen anyone out there digging for artifacts. Any one of us would have called if we saw something like that. That lady made a bunch of stuff up and had absolutely no proof or pictures of anything like that happening, it was just her word that she saw this going on. Even though she stated she had been watching people out there doing this stuff. You would think pictures or video would have been taken so that she had solid proof these things were happening. It’s bad when they can just bring up accusations, have nothing backing it up and then play the burial site and ceremonial part. To close down all that property that was used for a lot more than just looking for artifacts is not right.
I don’t agree with digging and disturbing remains whatsoever! People should get nailed for that kind of behavior, so to accuse us of doing that to close it down really disturbs me.

Fred250 · Nov 14, 2018

There must be valuable stuff out there or else no one would give a damn

Whitey9457 · Nov 14, 2018

sprailroad said:
Much is left to interpretation such as "Sacred object", who IS it that decides, for me, spent brass from a rifle is a "sacred object" and should only be disturbed by me, anyone else should be fined. See where you can go with this? Whitey, just WHO are these "bunch of people" that keep breaking the law, or is that just a coveniet phrase. So just to understand, if I should be driving through that area and I stop just to walk around out there because I like the peace and quiet, I can now be given some sort of ticket for walking around on public? land, and if I should spot a arrowhead and actually PICK IT UP!, I can lets say be arrested, because I am now a "criminal?" Case in point, "California", on "public" land, father and daughter walking on a hiking path, the girl picked up a few leaves to press in wax paper, yes, leaves. They were ordered to return the leaves to the ground by order of the park ranger, the leaves being public property, under threat of a fine. No joke. No, I can't tell you the name of that park anymore, just remember my disbelief at the time. NFS lands, 100 yrs old?, nope, THEY say 50yrs old. I asked a ranger one time, how can he tell the difference between a Mason jar that is 49yrs old, and one that is 51yrs old. He did not like that question. I get the human remains part, and sure, lets not dig holes in the dry lake bed with a back-hoe, I get that, but aimlessly walking around looking for a arrowhead, (remember MY sacred objects, spent brass?), I too am blowing off a little steam, just seems with a ever increasing population, along with ever increasing laws, rules & regulations and government mixed in, we might just hang up the detectors, because digging a four inch hole is illegal in many places because someone says it is for whatever reason. I can go on & on about this, and have to long already.

Public land doesn't mean anyone can use it for any use at any time. The White House is public land. So are military bases. You can be arrested for going onto either without permission. Old Faithful geyser and most formations in Yellowstone used to be publicly accessible 24/7... and then people started chipping off souvenirs and carving their names in it. Public means it is owned by the public. Not that it is always for public-use. People pay taxes that pay for that land and they don't ever get to use it. You need to preserve it for everyone. not just a few people.

"Whitey, just WHO are these "bunch of people" that keep breaking the law, or is that just a coveniet phrase."

The OP clearly refers to people in his area who have been digging and selling artifacts online. OP states they have all been doing this for years.

2017 ORS 358.905¹
Definitions for ORS 358.905 to 358.961
(k) “Sacred object” means an archaeological object or other object that:

(A) Is demonstrably revered by any ethnic group, religious group or Indian tribe as holy;

(B) Is used in connection with the religious or spiritual service or worship of a deity or spirit power; or

(C) Was or is needed by traditional native Indian religious leaders for the practice of traditional native Indian religion.