What a shame here in Oregon!

[bigmike]

Just wanted to rant and blow off some steam. Here in southeast oregon we have some of the best artifact hunting in the country. My grandpa, uncles, cousins and I have hunted them for years. The past couple years natives from up north have complained about people around here using equipment to dig up burial sites and selling artifacts and human remains online. They went to Salem and pitched a fit and next thing you know, the governor had department of state lands temporarily close the lakes to public access. So 2 years have went by and this year Department of state lands has meeting with public about permanent closures of lakes. They had to address local public in a meeting. End result is 2 lakes that are public property are closed down, can’t even ride an atv or run your dog out there. If you are caught you will get a warning and possibly trespassing ticket. If you have a firearm, which most people carry out in the desert, it could be a felony trespass ticket.
everyone I know that collects artifacts here does not sell them. There are people that do but I don’t know any personally. Never had I seen anyone using equipment digging for artifacts. I and all my friends and family consider it taboo to even mess with bones let alone sell them. It’s getting to be the time of year to go look for artifacts and all the good places are closed down. What a shame that a longtime hobby of my family and a lot of friends has been stripped from us! Too much government control on things anymore!
Sorry for the rant, wanted to let people know in case they visit here for artifacts so they don’t end up in court!

Mike

 

[A2coins]

Sign? what sign?

 

[A2coins]

Land used to be for all of us to roam and live off of now there is not an inch that's not owned by the State, County, Government, or a person. The land of the free, but not free in the land lol Theres a phrase in there somewhere!!!!!

 

[Plumbata]

What a shame indeed! It sounds like a small facet of the malevolent "UN Agenda 2030" https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/post2015/transformingourworld which behind the flowery utopian bullskit promotes the sequestration of vast "wildlife corridors" to be protected from human access or productive activity. This (un)naturally would funnel people into concentrated urban centers, where they can be much more conveniently monitored, controlled, and injured by massive amounts of physically and cognitively disruptive electromagnetic radiation from the forthcoming 5G grid meant to create a viable "internet of things", where even your refrigerator will be spying on you and selling your data to the highest bidder (like Facebook does). This is just the beginning, you will see much much more of this, but they are boiling the frog slowly and as long as they keep trotting out idiotic Indians claiming that they saw someone digging up their ancestor's crystal skull with jackhammers on whatever land the puppetmasters want to ban access, they will manipulate the feeble minds of enough big-Gov't-loving, entitlement-addicted bleeding-hearts to obtain the votes to strip us all of our patrimony. Thank God we've got a yuge wrench in those evil machinations operating on our behalf in DC, for now anyway, but the wicked forces in this world never sleep.

 

[arrow86]

 

[sprailroad]

Well... My take on "Whitey's" reply is that he is missing something called "Basic common sense", The White House, military bases?, Gee Whiz, thank you for pointing that out for me, I would never have thought. I don't believe there is any point in a debate here, in that Whitey may already have a mind set that government is always right, and the more the better, they know what is best, and will take care of everything for us. There IS a rather big difference between New Hampshire and Eastern Oregon or Nevada etc. I'm thinking something like miles of desert with nothing out there, with huge dry lake beds might boggle your mind somewhat, not something you would see in Hampshire, Old OR new. The points made in your (K) (A) (B) & (C), are open to WIDE interpretation. "What is sacred would be decided by a jury of your peers" Really? That would be easy enough, put together the right "jury", and nothing would be sacred any longer. OK, lets move on from that one. I don't recall "bigmike" saying anything about digging and selling, did I miss that? You know, we were talking about wandering around in a large dry area, on the off chance of spotting a arrowhead, not a religious icon. Arrow heads were a tool to hunt with, until something better came along, nothing more. Shutting down the whole area? ATV's and say walking a dog etc? Explain that to me please. You know, I had worked a number of years on Navajo steel gangs with the railroad as just part of the crew, good fella's, no different then any one else, and finding a bird point or a .22cal round, pretty much one and the same, one is just older, was no big deal to them, and they often had the same problem that often seems to be had everywhere else, elected official's who were full of ego, and liked there fifteen minutes of fame, not a whole lot more. So please, we were not talking of digging burial mounds and selling skulls, (didn't know there was a lot of that on-line) and I'm sure a boat load of vague and gray area Goverment laws can be sited. (K) "Sacred object" means an archaeological object or OTHER object; (remember the spent brass?) etc. etc. etc. Sooo….back to "common sense", wonder what detector I should use on the White House grounds....might be some good stuff there.

 

[Whitey9457]

And people call my generation "entitled" lol.

People act like this is government overreaching Free land to use? Would you really be happier if the land were sold to private owners (who presumably wouldn't let you dig on their land either)?

I personally thank God that we live in a country where we were smart enough to preserve public land for EVERYONE to use and benefit from... Even if there are rules, they ensure that the land and the resources it contains are there for everyone and not just the few.

I personally think it's extreme to close the whole area. I would be more in favor of paying for more rangers and then prosecuting people who break the rules to the fullest extent.

 

[Whitey9457]

I don't recall "bigmike" saying anything about digging and selling, did I miss that?

yes, you missed it: "everyone I know that collects artifacts here does not sell them. There are people that do but I don’t know any personally."

 

[Whitey9457]

The points made in your (K) (A) (B) & (C), are open to WIDE interpretation. "What is sacred would be decided by a jury of your peers" Really? That would be easy enough, put together the right "jury", and nothing would be sacred any longer.

those aren't my points.... that's the legal statute. And, yes, that's how juries work. If a jury agrees that it doesn't fit the legal definition of sacred, then it's not sacred.

try and tell me how it's not fair to be tried by a jury of your peers and then please tell me the alternative you suggest that is more fair.

 

[Whitey9457]

Well... My take on "Whitey's" reply is that he is missing something called "Basic common sense".

the irony....

 

[sprailroad]

And people call my generation "entitled" lol.

People act like this is government overreaching Free land to use? Would you really be happier if the land were sold to private owners (who presumably wouldn't let you dig on their land either)?

I personally thank God that we live in a country where we were smart enough to preserve public land for EVERYONE to use and benefit from... Even if there are rules, they ensure that the land and the resources it contains are there for everyone and not just the few.

I personally think it's extreme to close the whole area. I would be more in favor of paying for more rangers and then prosecuting people who break the rules to the fullest extent.

Now, did you not just say in your post #12, (Quote) "I don't think it would be better use of taxpayer dollars to start paying more people to guard and patrol the wilderness and make sure people aren't digging" (Un-Quote) Hmmm.... Tell ya what Whitey, let's you and I just go back to "Todays finds"

 

[Whitey9457]

Now, did you not just say in your post #12, (Quote) "I don't think it would be better use of taxpayer dollars to start paying more people to guard and patrol the wilderness and make sure people aren't digging" (Un-Quote) Hmmm.... Tell ya what Whitey, let's you and I just go back to "Todays finds"

Try again. Yes, it would cost more money and be less efficient to do things the right way IMO. But at least then the people who were using the land for allowed uses wouldn't be screwed out of their land because of lawless artifact collectors

 

[sprailroad]

Reading comprehension issues? No....I don't think so, not on my end. (I don't think it would be better use of taxpayer dollars to start paying more people to guard and patrol...) (I would be more in favor of paying for more rangers....)

 

[sprailroad]

Aw come on whitey, you edited out if I had reading comprehension issues the same minute that I had posted my reply, now no one knows why the heck I typed that. Pick one of your statements and we'll call it good. With warmest regards, SP

 

[Plumbata]

Just an observation: Those who defer to the law because "it's the law" are precisely the same sorts of people who Joined the King's loyalist forces during the Revolutionary War, or who helped catch and return escaped slaves, prosecuted people for brewing their own wine, or upheld Jim Crow poll tests/taxes, etc. Because what is lawful is somehow also morally and ethically correct, ya know. Much simpler than actually creating, possessing and following one's own moral compass, but in a country where the average IQ is 98 I suppose it's to be expected. It's also to be expected that craven servile boot-lickers will try to convince others that Sole is delicious.

 

[bigmike]

Public land doesn't mean anyone can use it for any use at any time. The White House is public land. So are military bases. You can be arrested for going onto either without permission. Old Faithful geyser and most formations in Yellowstone used to be publicly accessible 24/7... and then people started chipping off souvenirs and carving their names in it. Public means it is owned by the public. Not that it is always for public-use. People pay taxes that pay for that land and they don't ever get to use it. You need to preserve it for everyone. not just a few people.

"Whitey, just WHO are these "bunch of people" that keep breaking the law, or is that just a coveniet phrase."

The OP clearly refers to people in his area who have been digging and selling artifacts online. OP states they have all been doing this for years.

2017 ORS 358.905¹
Definitions for ORS 358.905 to 358.961
(k) “Sacred object” means an archaeological object or other object that:

(A) Is demonstrably revered by any ethnic group, religious group or Indian tribe as holy;

(B) Is used in connection with the religious or spiritual service or worship of a deity or spirit power; or

(C) Was or is needed by traditional native Indian religious leaders for the practice of traditional native Indian religion.

I never stated that we have been digging and selling artifacts online. You’re thw one stating that. The native that showed up at meeting stated she has seen people digging and there was a skull for sale online and when asked where she couldn’t remember where she saw it. I stated that a lot of my family and friends have been going out there for years looking for artifacts. I never said that any of them dig and sold things.
I understand about the White House and military bases. When the government starts closing areas that have been public access forever then there’s a problem. Then there is too much government control.

 

[unclemac]

...all i can say is ...things change....i know that doesn't help the frustration but each generation when they come of age, gets to redefine what is "right".

 

[bigmike]

Unfortunately you are right unclemac. I moved back to Oregon to enjoy going out to the desert and riding my atv on the endless miles of roads and enjoy the Oregon I remember years ago. Forest service closed hundreds of miles of roads because they don’t want to maintain them, BLM making wilderness areas that you cannot go into unless on foot, state lands being closed to any kind of activity. It’s just a sad deal. I moved away from California because of this same kind of thing and now that mindset is moving north. All the older generation is just sick over all of the changes.

 

[Philvis]

I'll give my perspective as a former archaeologist. Pretty much all parks in any state are 'off limits' when it comes to surface collecting, whether it be 'artifacts' or pretty rocks. That's the product of the state/federal governments assuming complete control over everything. Do I agree with that, not necessarily. There is never enough money, nor enough archaeologists to fund excavations where concentrations or artifacts are to locate potential sites. So one part of the no collecting is to leave it be for future potential excavations and the other side of the coin is simply, we (whatever government entity you speak of) owns the land and everything on it.

As far as pot hunting/grave robbing, it definitely exists and is a problem. There were prehistoric Indian sites I excavated with burials that we had to camp out overnight on, because once word got out burials were found, night time stealth diggings would occur. The phrase of one bad apple spoils the bunch definitely applies here. You do have a very small minority of people that ruin it for everyone. Just look at how metal detectorists have had a stigma with them because of a small minority of people using them illegally on national battlefields and such. I'm very open when it comes to metal detecting, surface collecting, and so forth. I've had a metal detector since I was a teen. Grave robbing, however, is where I do draw the line. Whether it be Native American graves, or any other peoples. It's illegal, and just morally wrong. Would you care for someone to go to the local cemetery and dig up a relative?

Someone mentioned the Native American lady claiming to have seen someone dig up a burial. When it comes to this, I think you need to step back with a different perspective. Native Americans have been crapped on since the first Europeans arrived. The NAGPRA act in 1990 was the first time they essentially became empowered over their culture. I'm not saying it is right all or most of the time, but they are simply exuding power that has been lost for generations. The Kennewick Man debacle is one of those instances in which I disagree with the powers that come with NAGPRA. So even as sketchy as it may be sometimes, you cannot help but blame them for trying to protect their culture...whether it be simple power plays or an earnest attempt at protection for cultural reasons.

We all need to face the fact that we have lost dominion over our 'public' lands. The only choices we have are to bicker about it on here, or try to get legislative change accomplished. The reality is that Native Americans now have much more control/say over anything created by their cultures, so fighting that isn't going to be a winnable battle in all honesty.

 

[Dragonscout]

All of Georgia state parks are considered public land and prohibited as I understand it. Hope I'm wrong, but I'll defer to ATP ProDon. When in Missouri if you paid for permits you could do parks, but don't know about now...your mileage may vary

 

[bowwinkles]

Unfortunately you are right unclemac. I moved back to Oregon to enjoy going out to the desert and riding my atv on the endless miles of roads and enjoy the Oregon I remember years ago. Forest service closed hundreds of miles of roads because they don’t want to maintain them, BLM making wilderness areas that you cannot go into unless on foot, state lands being closed to any kind of activity. It’s just a sad deal. I moved away from California because of this same kind of thing and now that mindset is moving north. All the older generation is just sick over all of the changes.

When I was in the military my folks lived in Lake View and we spent many hours in the hills around there. They even had a little switchback road that went all the way to the top of the hill behind Lake view and I was told that there was a native amer. burial place in that area.