What if a tourist finds precious metal?

[Wildlifeliving]

If you go to Australia for example, and stumble upon a couple of nuggets what rights do you have? The same as the ones who are residents there? Or if an Aussie goes to the states, does he have the same rights as an US citizen?
Lets say u finds something small like 10 gram nugget, u go a shop and sell it. No problems there I guess? But if its something bigger, like those monster nuggets u read about sometimes. I Guess its not that easy to make a quiet sell it then if u want to sell it?

 

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[releventchair]

The site it was found on would factor...if some ones existing claim obviously it would belong to claim holder.

Mineral/precious metal regulations would follow next with a regions laws probably more important than citizenship ,though that could factor depending on country /region.
Most resources and the harvest of them are regulated.
Quantity may not be as important as dealing in any amount of a resource , if prohibited.
While certain volumes (value wise) are subject to reporting ,(5000 in Australia recently) there's always a chance any amount is. Especially by foreign strangers.
Expect that gold can be traced back to it's origin by it's characteristics and recovering it from a source off limits could have consequences..

Exporting /taking gold out of the country would be a law(s) worth knowing too.
What is not from a mining claim may well belong to the Queen.
So accounting for it's origin may be required.
Recently, history wise , gold possession laws in Australia have changed regarding it's state and possession in refined or raw forms and who can sell it..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_mining_law




Research first if finding nuggets are a concern!

 

[pat-tekker-cat]

Good question, as I had hopes to tromp the Vic gold fields, Bendigo area, but could never get outta NSW's.

Here, you could just sell your find, over there, I guess you could do the same......
that is, unless you pulled up one of them 20+ kilo boulder nuggets, then I guess you better start trying to find someone over there you can trust, and quick.
Maybe someone else will come along with more info, you can try to google the info, too.
Only folks I know and trust there, are outta west Sydney area.
Pm if your in a real jam and good luck!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Wow, the things you/anyone can come up with, that.... given enough tax lawyers, Archies, and border consultants.

I have no doubt, that if I passed most of my hunt spots through such what-if scenarios, that I could preclude myself from most every place I hunt without issue.

I know a guy from the United States who flew to Australia to hunt nuggets. This was back in the early 1980s. He came back with some nuggets, and had no problems. But maybe he just didn't ask enough questions ?

 

[releventchair]

Wow, the things you/anyone can come up with, that.... given enough tax lawyers, Archies, and border consultants.

I have no doubt, that if I passed most of my hunt spots through such what-if scenarios, that I could preclude myself from most every place I hunt without issue.

I know a guy from the United States who flew to Australia to hunt nuggets. This was back in the early 1980s. He came back with some nuggets, and had no problems. But maybe he just didn't ask enough questions ?

Good luck with your pockets full of nuggets at the airline terminal Tom!

 

[kcm]

Things have changed a lot since then. Metal detectors, luggage scanners, etc, etc. When the terrorists set out to change the world, they sure did do that in some ways.

As for gold, Relevant Chair is correct - the chemical makeup of gold can easily trace back to its originating locale. Sometimes there are areas that have such a unique chemical makeup that they can be traced back to a certain mine or a certain placer area.

As for just tossing it in your luggage and playing like a dummy, that might work - then again, it might not. Also, if reported and worth considerable value, there MIGHT be some sort of tax that one gov't or another might try to impose on the piece. I'd try to fight it if they did, but they'd still come after you if you ever tried to sell the piece. Gold in raw form is not taxable. You can smelt it down yourself and keep it secret without paying taxes, but laws state that you're "supposed" to include it. You still are not supposed to transport gold (raw or not) over international boundaries without declaring it.

 

[pat-tekker-cat]

kcm, that was the issue I had traveling, tsa pulled me for additional check, cause the jewelry pouch I was carrying (close next to my body, lol), was loaded with gold jewelry (some of which I intended to leave with my friends abroad, but, none the less). They even told me, we want additional check cause of the jewelry, they wanted to see it.
I told them I wasn't fixing to open that pouch here, in front of Dog and everyone, so we went to a more private area, I opened and showed them, told them, "Hey, I'mma bling girl, I've packed for 6 mnth trip". LOL. They said ok, no prob, they just had to check.
I didn't declare any of it, as it was personal use jewelry.

Don't know how they'd a handled it, if I had vials or big rocks of gold.
op, may wanna buy ya some silver color paint, throw 'em in the bottom of the carry on.....
souvenir rock



disclaimer: if ya do got something, google or best to get a solicitor, as I am a big joker and kidder,
and don't know anything.

 

[releventchair]

Know the risks first and then make your own choices and decisions.
International laws, (let alone national ones) are quite important once you get on the wrong side of one or more..
Even if in the right...IF some one is in a position where a suit ( civil or other wise) arises the cost of legal defense,travel and time costs plus legal representation ,court costs ect. can outweigh the original potential benefit of a risk.
Returning to a foreign country to do so really insures expense.

I understand Tom poo-pooing concerns . But he will not be covering my tail in a speculative gamble.

I've forfeited a bond incurred over a legal technicality before.
Multiple reasons for doing so.
Expense of defending myself while exposing further potential risks were part of the deal...but ,that same forfeiture could almost be considered a vulnerable target in folks far from home too.
I'm confident others on the other side weighed the risks and costs both sides too.

Just know the laws, local jurisdictions and the borders being crossed authorities enforcement zeal , and potential consequences first if running risks.
Going a-pirating is fun ...till ya get caught.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Ok, personally, having flown enough flights, and gone through enough luggage checks, it seems to me that the guys there at the luggage check-points are looking for explosives , post 9/11 stuff. Or drugs, fruits, etc.... I mean, it seems to me that if a guy had a few "nuggets" on his person, in his shave kit, is anyone really riffling through his underwear in his dirty laundry to wonder what those grain-of-rice or pebble things are ?

But let's just grant for a moment, that navy commando seals are stationed at airline checkpoints, to "look for those deadly nuggets". Ok, grant that for sake of argument. Then let me ask you this: If you look on ebay right now, is it not possible to buy nuggets from someone in Australia ? I'm sure there's hobbyists, or gemologists, or buy/sell/trade people, that you can indeed buy and sell from. And If you are the successful bidder, can't they mail that nugget you bought to the USA ? Ok then: What's to stop you from going to that buy/sell guy before you leave, arrange for him to ship the freeken' nuggets ?

I'm not saying to "throw caution to the wind". But sometimes I think that we md'rs over-think things. To the extent that: If you give ANY place in the world you can now md w/o issue or problem, that : If I asked enough questions, phrased the right way, I could find someone/something, that , in-the-right-light, precludes you from md'ing there. Whether it be lost & found laws, cultural heritage, harvest/remove, damage/deface, mineral laws, etc.... Again, not saying to throw caution to the wind. But just saying that if you look long enough and hard enough, you might as well give up all md'ing. Because somehow, someway, you're doing something wrong at some turn-in-the-road.

 

[kcm]

Probably the best answer of all is, use common sense.

 

[kcm]

Even "I" use common sense -- -- -- sometimes!

 

[Oddjob]

My brother in law makes his living flying around the world nugget sniping. From Australia, middle east, Africa, eastern Europe, Lapland and Greenland. He always brings home a few samples for his collection but sells most in country unless it is the middle east or Africa. I asked him once and he said that he just networks with local prospectors, follows the laws and sells most in first world countries.

He said that he was only stopped twice in Australia with nuggets (under 5 grams) and questioned; he said that he was prepared and had all his documents in order for what he sold there and his legal permissions and just told the people it was for his collection back home, that he collects metals from all over because of their unique composition. He said they treated it like it was cool and just wanted to make sure he was not taking out pounds of it.

 

[releventchair]

International buyers – please note:
Import duties, taxes, and charges aren’t included in the item price or postage cost.
These charges are the buyer's responsibility.

Please check with your country's customs office to determine what these additional costs will be prior to bidding or buying.

Australian Natural Gold Nugget 0.50 grams No 11

 

[Clay Diggins]

In the United States to take valuable minerals from the public lands you must either be a United States Citizen or have applied for citizenship. Beyond that land status is a big issue. If the land has been claimed you can not legally look for gold and taking gold is felony theft. On some specific public lands - including virtually all of the eastern National Forests the mineral rights are in private ownership, in those places you can not take any valuable minerals you've found.

On private lands in the United States, including municipal or state lands, you will need permission to take gold or valuable minerals.

I've never had trouble traveling with gold. Most countries are like the United States with very high limits before you need to declare your gold. I don't know of any countries but India that charge an import/export tax on gold but it's best you check before transporting gold across international borders.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

In the United States to take valuable minerals from the public lands you must either be a United States Citizen or have applied for citizenship......

Clay-diggins, very interesting. So if a bloke from Australia, England, Japan, Russia, etc... were visiting here in the USA , they could not nugget hunt, eh ?

In CA where I live, I'm a few hours from the Sierra Nevada foot-hills, where most of CA nugget hunting takes place. But I know some guys into it. And after reading what you wrote, I'll have to ask them if any of them were ever "carded for their USA citizenship" when nugget hunting on public land. Something tells me that they're going to say no one's ever asked them for proof of citizenship.

How about you ? Since your avetar/bio indicates you're into the prospecting angle of this hobby, then do tell: How many times have you been carded for proof of citizenship ?

 

[cudamark]

Yeah, right......they don't even card people to vote in this country!

 

[Clay Diggins]

Clay-diggins, very interesting. So if a bloke from Australia, England, Japan, Russia, etc... were visiting here in the USA , they could not nugget hunt, eh ?

In CA where I live, I'm a few hours from the Sierra Nevada foot-hills, where most of CA nugget hunting takes place. But I know some guys into it. And after reading what you wrote, I'll have to ask them if any of them were ever "carded for their USA citizenship" when nugget hunting on public land. Something tells me that they're going to say no one's ever asked them for proof of citizenship.

How about you ? Since your avetar/bio indicates you're into the prospecting angle of this hobby, then do tell: How many times have you been carded for proof of citizenship ?

Hey Tom. You are becoming more than predictable when it comes to your opinion that laws don't matter. Fortunately the purpose of this forum on TNet is clearly stated:

Treasure Hunting Legal Issues

I answered the OPs question by paraphrasing the law.

Here it is in full:

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That all valuable mineral deposits in lands belonging to the United States, both surveyed and unsurveyed, are hereby declared to be free and open to exploration and purchase, and that the lands in which they are found to occupation and purchase, by citizens of the United States and those who have declared their intention to become such, under regulations prescribed by law, and according to the local customs or rules of miners, in the several mining-districts, so far as the same are applicable and not inconsistent with the laws of the United States.

Notice that it doesn't say anything about if you don't agree with the law it doesn't apply and it doesn't say anything about if you don't get caught it doesn't apply. It very straightforward - it gives the right only to citizens of the United States and those who have declared their intention to become such.

You are welcome to your opinions about laws and their enforcement but why do you waste time dancing around the issues? Why not just come out and say "I don't care about the law, I do whatever I think I can get away with" Wouldn't that be easier? You could just cut and paste that wherever you feel a need to object to someone pointing out the facts about law. Easy Peasy.

You will do what you want and I seriously doubt it will affect me. If you enjoy being a scofflaw you are part of a long line of those who could care less what society's rules are. Enjoy but please consider others who actually just want a straight answer without being told to ignore the facts. Most posters here are adults who can make their own decisions about whether they will follow the law or not. Some others are children who really shouldn't be exposed to your opinions that laws don't matter if you don't get caught breaking them.

To answer your question about foreigners nugget hunting in the United States. Read what I posted again. I clearly stated that the PUBLIC LANDS were off limits to foreign nugget hunters. There are many other places that are private or where the minerals are already owned where a foreigner might nugget hunt with permission from the owner of the minerals. I never said foreign people couldn't nugget hunt anywhere - just the public lands are off limits by law.

To answer your ridiculous question about carding. In the United States there is no legal requirement that anyone not engaged in a licensed activity needs to carry or show an ID card. More law. The carding issue is a red herring and has nothing to do with whether something is legal or not. Changing the subject doesn't change the law.

 

[Oddjob]

To answer your question about foreigners nugget hunting in the United States. Read what I posted again. I clearly stated that the PUBLIC LANDS were off limits to foreign nugget hunters. There are many other places that are private or where the minerals are already owned where a foreigner might nugget hunt with permission from the owner of the minerals. I never said foreign people couldn't nugget hunt anywhere - just the public lands are off limits by law.

To answer your ridiculous question about carding. In the United States there is no legal requirement that anyone not engaged in a licensed activity needs to carry or show an ID card. More law. The carding issue is a red herring and has nothing to do with whether something is legal or not. Changing the subject doesn't change the law.

Yeah my brother in law is German, has a residents visa for the States and owns a couple houses there as well. He either has to go to a few ranches and hunt or up to CA. He has only hunted the us a couple of times, says the nuggets are babies compared to what he is used to on his worse day. But he loves the tax law in the US for people with more than the average person, and also how the US Tax Laws protect him against German BS Tax Law.

We have our rules in the US and they are for good reason; clearly we are not Nigeria having China take all of our oil. The rules are very, yet at the same time our nation does open their arms and allow people to come in for many reasons, mainly for a better life. Had my brother in law ever applied to become a US citizen or stated during him initial interview that he would one day apply for it then things would be different for him. But he was very clear with the US and said that he just wants to transfer close to 30 million of his money into the US and pay taxes on it there instead of giving up nearly 55% of it to a nation who treats had working wealthy people like they are criminals.

The US loves these types. But in all fairness it is for our own protection regardless if we see the big picture or not. If we where like Nigeria and allowed such foreign firms to come in we would be facing many threats in regards to National Security.

Just my take on it; I do not agree with many laws and I work for Interpol, but if I sit back and take a look at the big picture I can find a 100 plausible examples as to why such laws exist and even cite issues in nations that would not suffers had they the same laws. It is the world we created, and we must live in it, we can either complicate matters more, or read the fine print, find a middle ground and get along or walk away.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Clay, you are right. That is the indisputable reading of the law. I'm sure it has stopped foreign corp's from starting mega-operations for good-reason. But sure: it applies to the hobbyist going for a few nuggets too. Whether or not it's ever become an issue, is a moot point.

 

[Honest Samuel]

Tom
I am single, and my second worldly vice is chasing wild women yelling I am in the mood.