When/Why Your Machine IS Costing You Targets

bigscoop

Gold Member
Jun 4, 2010
13,479
8,946
Wherever there be treasure!
Detector(s) used
Older blue Excal with full mods, Equinox 800.
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
While metal detectors have come a long way they'll never be able to control the ever-changing elements and conditions. Even when we have our machines finely tuned we have no control over the shape, size, conductivity, density, or the position of those targets. In our hands we have a tool that is designed to consistently perform, yet in the ground we have a wide assortment of frequently inconsistent targets and conditions.

Coins are perhaps the most consistent targets we can pursue because each denomination is consistent in size and its general makeup. Yet if we angle this target in the ground, perhaps even stand it on end, or change its depth, or any combination of these, then we can create a lot of inconsistent returns which can result in vastly different target ID information. And targets such as jewelry where there is little consistency at all, well, even gold and silver jewelry can show up just about anywhere on the non-ferrous scale.

I like my Equinox 800 but I'm also painfully aware that all of that notching out "IS" costing me some good targets. But at my age and considering some of the locations that I detect, well, sometimes you just have to live with whatever the situation allows.
Given all of the above let's examine the penny range on our machines. Yesterday I passed over at least 50 targets in the penny range, this same range also being home to a wide variety of gold and silver jewelry items as pennies will frequently appear in the 18 to 25 range on my Equinox. This same thing can be said of the nickel range, or that 12-13 range on my Equinox which I don't have notched out but use my own discretion on which ones I choose to dig. Twenty years ago I would have dug all of these targets and no doubt I would have recovered more good targets because I did. But today's advanced machines just make it too easy to avoid all of the pull-tabs, bottle caps, etc., and so I/we just avoid digging them.

Yesterday I stood over a target that was a solid 12 on my machine until I moved 90 degrees of the target and then it started to cut in and out on me. The reason it was cutting in and out is because I had 11 & 14 notched out and once I changed my sweep angle the target wanted to start bouncing into that 11 and 14 range and so I didn't dig it. Most likely it was one of those square pull-tabs, maybe broken in half, bent, or perhaps it was sitting in the ground at a sharp angle. On the other hand, however, it could have just as easily been a gold ring sitting in the ground at an odd angle. Whatever the case I chose to avoid digging it even though it never dipped into a negative return when I switched to all metal and it had that classic double beep so frequently associated with rings. Did I miss a good target? Probably not, but perhaps, maybe so. In any event twenty years ago I would have dug that target.

Confidence is important but today's machines can easily evoke too much confidence and that sense of confidence can easily cost us a lot of good targets when we start taking the advanced performance of these machines for granted. Had I been in the water with my long-handled scoop I would have dug all of the above targets because it's so much simpler and easier to do, having learned the hard way long ago that even today's machines can't produce consistent performance and target ID on inconsistent targets. Just isn't going to happen because it can't. Trust? Perhaps the biggest mistake we often make is placing too much trust in what our advanced machines are telling us.

While we may see these new machines as perfect tools the target signatures of the items we pursue are often far from perfect and this is where the process should always be suspect, because it is. So even if your machine is accurate 70% of the time, which would be really good, that still leaves 30% room for error in the classifying of targets and that missed 30% can really start to add up. I know I passed on some good targets yesterday, no doubt about it. Just how good?
 

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While metal detectors have come a long way they'll never be able to control the ever-changing elements and conditions. Even when we have our machines finely tuned we have no control over the shape, size, conductivity, density, or the position of those targets. In our hands we have a tool that is designed to consistently perform, yet in the ground we have a wide assortment of frequently inconsistent targets and conditions.

Coins are perhaps the most consistent targets we can pursue because each denomination is consistent in size and its general makeup. Yet if we angle this target in the ground, perhaps even stand it on end, or change its depth, or any combination of these, then we can create a lot of inconsistent returns which can result in vastly different target ID information. And targets such as jewelry where there is little consistency at all, well, even gold and silver jewelry can show up just about anywhere on the non-ferrous scale.

I like my Equinox 800 but I'm also painfully aware that all of that notching out "IS" costing me some good targets. But at my age and considering some of the locations that I detect, well, sometimes you just have to live with whatever the situation allows.
Given all of the above let's examine the penny range on our machines. Yesterday I passed over at least 50 targets in the penny range, this same range also being home to a wide variety of gold and silver jewelry items as pennies will frequently appear in the 18 to 25 range on my Equinox. This same thing can be said of the nickel range, or that 12-13 range on my Equinox which I don't have notched out but use my own discretion on which ones I choose to dig. Twenty years ago I would have dug all of these targets and no doubt I would have recovered more good targets because I did. But today's advanced machines just make it too easy to avoid all of the pull-tabs, bottle caps, etc., and so I/we just avoid digging them.

Yesterday I stood over a target that was a solid 12 on my machine until I moved 90 degrees of the target and then it started to cut in and out on me. The reason it was cutting in and out is because I had 11 & 14 notched out and once I changed my sweep angle the target wanted to start bouncing into that 11 and 14 range and so I didn't dig it. Most likely it was one of those square pull-tabs, maybe broken in half, bent, or perhaps it was sitting in the ground at a sharp angle. On the other hand, however, it could have just as easily been a gold ring sitting in the ground at an odd angle. Whatever the case I chose to avoid digging it even though it never dipped into a negative return when I switched to all metal and it had that classic double beep so frequently associated with rings. Did I miss a good target? Probably not, but perhaps, maybe so. In any event twenty years ago I would have dug that target.

Confidence is important but today's machines can easily evoke too much confidence and that sense of confidence can easily cost us a lot of good targets when we start taking the advanced performance of these machines for granted. Had I been in the water with my long-handled scoop I would have dug all of the above targets because it's so much simpler and easier to do, having learned the hard way long ago that even today's machines can't produce consistent performance and target ID on inconsistent targets. Just isn't going to happen because it can't. Trust? Perhaps the biggest mistake we often make is placing too much trust in what our advanced machines are telling us.

While we may see these new machines as perfect tools the target signatures of the items we pursue are often far from perfect and this is where the process should always be suspect, because it is. So even if your machine is accurate 70% of the time, which would be really good, that still leaves 30% room for error in the classifying of targets and that missed 30% can really start to add up. I know I passed on some good targets yesterday, no doubt about it. Just how good?
I have an opinion to inject here. I'm someone who primarily hunts with a pinpointer at "micro sites" and despite many nay sayers who claim this can't be done I'm here to tell you it can and I've made abundant finds to prove it. As it turns out I actually make consistently better finds with my pinpointer techniques than I do with my "regular" machine with all its bells and whistles. There's a few reasons for that but a major one I've identified has to do with bias. When I use my regular rig it gives me VDI info, I only "discriminate" using those numbers and tones as opposed to "notching" certain tones out. Oh, it's an iron tone, huhh, do I bother digging? No, move on.
Ok, what did I just pass up there? The world may never know because I made an assumption about the target: it's another nail. Meanwhile, if I'm out using my pinpointer I know only that there's a target, I'm excited to dig on it and I have no idea but....
Oh damn, ok, yeah, it's iron alright but that's a largely intact tool from the early 1900s! Maybe it's a pull tab but now, because I can actually see that it's a pull tab I have a "context" artifact I can use to help establish the provenance and dates at the site in question. I didn't ignore that pull tab and now I know more than I would have had I ignored it based on it being a potential can slaw hit. I'm at a point where I'm beginning to think that if I choose (which is rare) to use my regular machine I should just run it in non motion pinpoint mode, I'm 100% more likely to start digging a hit, any hit and it's probably something that's going to surprise me or provide me with useful info on the site I'm exploring. VDI and disc add a bias that wasn't there before, a bias I don't have using just my pinpointer! I think this is something more of us should consider in the field, maybe we shouldn't be ignoring any tones at all, maybe the VDI spoils the surprise by leading us to think that the target is yet another worthless piece of____ fill in the blank.
Run in all metal mode, ignore VDI, just dig it all, always dig it all. Even apparent trash can provide useful info for the observant!
 

Honestly, I think, as would be seekers of history that we should be very aware of possible personal and technological biases that could interfere with our quest for better stuff AND better info. I look at everything I dig up, I look for any signs it might tell me about a given site. You might be amazed how much information the "trash" can tell us, every bit of it is worth finding especially if the information we have on the site is spotty at best or even non present.
 

I use almost no discrimination out of habit. I do look at the VDI numbers, but do not as a rule rely on them, they do and can jump around given the different conditions as mentioned above, I go more by sound. Digging everything? well....it gets to a time that one uses their own judgement as weather to dig or not, and a lot of that is "site dependent" of course, but also for some of us it is also a physical thing in regards to silly little things such as legs and knees, and how many times can you really get down to dig and how much effort it takes after awhile to get back up again, three hours worth is about my limit anymore. As far as the detectors themselves?, No doubt as to how advanced they have become, computers on a stick, I set up pretty basic, many bells and whistles I never have used, I keep it pretty simple, do I get the "Best" performance out of my detector? perhaps not, but again I notch out almost nothing, go by sound and a little experience. If you are a Tech. type of person, then by all means go through the menu and set it up any and everyway you like, nothing wrong with that, you paid for it, work it. I'm a simple and perhaps Tech. challenged guy, I turn on the machine, select what I want, (field 1 or 2 etc.) noise cancel, ground balance, depth, and away I go, with a nice steady even swing, (terrain permitting) and hope that the treasure gods will smile upon me now and then. After so many years and places of detecting, I still love it.
 

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I use almost no discrimination out of habit. I do look at the VDI numbers, but do not as a rule rely on them, they do and can jump around given the different conditions as mentioned above, I go more by sound. Digging everything? well....it gets to a time that one uses their own judgement as weather to dig or not, and a lot of that is "site dependent" of course, but also for some of us it is also a physical thing in regards to silly little things such as legs and knees, and how many times can you really get down to dig and how much effort it takes after awhile to get back up again, three hours worth is about my limit anymore. As far as the detectors themselves?, No doubt as to how advanced they have become, computers on a stick, I set up pretty basic, many bells and whistles I never have used, I keep it pretty simple, do I get the "Best" performance out of my detector? perhaps not, but again I notch out almost nothing, go by sound and a little experience. If you are a Tech. type of person, then by all means go through the menu and set it up any and everyway you like, nothing wrong with that, you paid for it, work it. I'm a simple and perhaps Tech. challenged guy, I turn on the machine, select what I want, (field 1 or 2 etc.) noise cancel, ground balance, depth, and away I go, with a nice steady even swing, (terrain permitting) and hope that the treasure gods give smile upon me now and then. After so many years and places of detecting, I still love it.
I like a simple machine, I am fairly tech savvy and I appreciate the more advanced tech but I remember my old non motion detector I had as a kid and I liked that it told me just one thing: there's a target there. The first target I ever found with that thing was insane, I don't think advanced tech would have added anything to any part of that experience. Sometimes the simplest approach is the best for some of us
 

For many years I made the mistake of thinking a bigger, better, more expensive detector would create more finds. Time and age have opened my eyes. A good machine can be a great help but never stake what your finds will be on the detector solely. The real key is you. I have good days detecting and I have bad ones. Location is very important. That place you thought would be so good can be an iron infested shitehole that has rapid fire machine gun audio with every swing. I've been there and done that. Even in those horrible places you CAN find something good if you understand what you're up against and what steps to take. It may take a different coil, or even a different machine and coil combo but once you figure that out things can be pulled from such sites that are not iron.

The biggest obstacle is your self. Not every hunt is going to equal great finds. Sometimes there are NONE other than junk. That may make someone walk away feeling it was a wasted trip, but even in that situation you have extra experience. You DID walk with a find and didn't know it. You walked away with what that particular junk sounded like and how it rang up. You will take this knowledge with you on the next trip. Even back in the same place you just crapped out on a different day may find you something missed that previous trip. It's all about tenacity, and never giving up. You can't find what isn't under your coil. With so many variables in the field it is very likely that coin was in the ground last week that you found this week. At the same place you went to last week and crapped out! The key is to continue onward. And stop thinking about what you are going to find before you even get there. These are things I've learned. To me these days it is more about getting away from work, the phone, the people, the questions, the responsibilities on my back there. When I'm out detecting it's about a mystery- the mystery of why time flies so fast when I'm out metal detecting! Clad, bling jewelry, little grommets, even pull tabs and can slaw are still better than the dang work grind I've endured for over 23 years in the same place....

So yeah, a clad quarter suits me fine! I didn't have it before I got there! :P
 

It took me years to learn that all of these new machines are loaded with "friendly user presets" that do a great deal of the thinking for us and come at a cost somewhere else. And, every adjustment on those machines are just filters, adjusting them up or down to either hear more or less information.
 

The price you pay for a machine to do your thinking for you is ridiculous.....
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Sorry, I don't see it that way. Education/knowledge always has a price, whether monetary, time, BS&T, or other. I'm almost 70; I don't have another 30 years to reinvent the wheel and learn what many of you guys know from the school of hard knocks.

And this machine certainly isn't doing any of MY "thinking" for me; that would require some level of AI. I still have to learn what all these settings do, how, why, and when to do what with them or not. THAT'S (IMO) where the thinking comes in--evaluating the site, soil, best coil size to use, signals, and yes-which machine programs/settings to use and/or modify and apply.

What these settings/capabilities/features/filters (whatever you want to call them) can and will do --if we learn them and how to effectively use them--is save us the most valuable resource... TIME.

A good machine can be a great help but never stake what your finds will be on the detector solely. The real key is you.
....
The biggest obstacle is your self.
+1. IDT my machine is costing me targets.
I think I'm costing me targets from my own lack of knowledge & experience.

IMO, it's all about the learning curves.
 

I have an opinion to inject here. I'm someone who primarily hunts with a pinpointer at "micro sites" and despite many nay sayers who claim this can't be done I'm here to tell you it can and I've made abundant finds to prove it. As it turns out I actually make consistently better finds with my pinpointer techniques than I do with my "regular" machine with all its bells and whistles. There's a few reasons for that but a major one I've identified has to do with bias. When I use my regular rig it gives me VDI info, I only "discriminate" using those numbers and tones as opposed to "notching" certain tones out. Oh, it's an iron tone, huhh, do I bother digging? No, move on.
Ok, what did I just pass up there? The world may never know because I made an assumption about the target: it's another nail. Meanwhile, if I'm out using my pinpointer I know only that there's a target, I'm excited to dig on it and I have no idea but....
Oh damn, ok, yeah, it's iron alright but that's a largely intact tool from the early 1900s! Maybe it's a pull tab but now, because I can actually see that it's a pull tab I have a "context" artifact I can use to help establish the provenance and dates at the site in question. I didn't ignore that pull tab and now I know more than I would have had I ignored it based on it being a potential can slaw hit. I'm at a point where I'm beginning to think that if I choose (which is rare) to use my regular machine I should just run it in non motion pinpoint mode, I'm 100% more likely to start digging a hit, any hit and it's probably something that's going to surprise me or provide me with useful info on the site I'm exploring. VDI and disc add a bias that wasn't there before, a bias I don't have using just my pinpointer! I think this is something more of us should consider in the field, maybe we shouldn't be ignoring any tones at all, maybe the VDI spoils the surprise by leading us to think that the target is yet another worthless piece of____ fill in the blank.
Run in all metal mode, ignore VDI, just dig it all, always dig it all. Even apparent trash can provide useful info for the observant!
Ok you can dig your everything, but seriously you must be really happy digging iron and basically trash targets.
Not saying your method doesn't work, but it's just not feasible at certain sites.
I have sites that have had probably 3 different houses/structures in a 1 acre plot.
I can listen to a thousand ferrous signals before getting a non-ferrous signal.
Granted if I dug everything I probably would be better off getting a screen and shovel as it would be faster.
Yes I would find some keepers, but time and effort comes at a price.
Nope at this stage of the game it's a trade off.
Getting to know the machine, and what it's telling me.
 

To get to know that machine is priceless.
I still stand behind the 1000 hrs on getting to know it well.
I've got about 100 hrs in, and we've barely shaken hands... 🤣
 

As soon as these modern machines hit the open market experienced detectorist tried to explain to users that these faster recovery speeds were coming at the cost of depth and weaker returns. For the most part the vast majority of faster recovery speed enthusiast quickly rejected this notion/fact. Now this fact is common knowledge and even stated as much in most of those user manuals. However, in those same user manuals there is no explanation as to why this condition MUST exist. Yet, this is what users really need to know and to understand.

The simple truth is in nearly every case, each time we make a machine adjustment to improve "our individual performance preferences" in one area it comes at a cost somewhere else. This is simply the nature of the technology. And it doesn't stop at just the machine as the same is also true of coil sizes, etc.
 

As soon as these modern machines hit the open market experienced detectorist tried to explain to users that these faster recovery speeds were coming at the cost of depth and weaker returns. For the most part the vast majority of faster recovery speed enthusiast quickly rejected this notion/fact. Now this fact is common knowledge and even stated as much in most of those user manuals.
Comparing apples to elbows, IMO.

Common knowledge? :icon_scratch:

I'm not saying I don't believe it or that it's not true--IDK.

What I will say is that in the year that I've been learning about this hobby, dozens of websites, more dozens (hundreds?) of vids, I've never heard that. :dontknow:

All that my manual says is
Bear in mind also that you will increase your
chances of finding and identifying a target further by sweeping more slowly. This particularly applies in metal-infested ground (when there are more tar-gets to be investigated) or when you are search-ing for deeper targets.
This makes perfect sense to me. I would think this would apply to any detector from any era.
 

Comparing apples to elbows, IMO.

Common knowledge? :icon_scratch:

I'm not saying I don't believe it or that it's not true--IDK.

What I will say is that in the year that I've been learning about this hobby, dozens of websites, more dozens (hundreds?) of vids, I've never heard that. :dontknow:

All that my manual says is

This makes perfect sense to me. I would think this would apply to any detector from any era.
There's "a lot" of misinformation and misunderstanding out there, even on some of the more popular pages, sites, Youtube, etc. So don't take my word for it but rather allow me to quote directly from my Minelab Equinox 800 user's manual: (Page 51)

"While using a higher target recovery speed may increase the ability of the detector to find difficult targets, it also results in reduced Target ID accuracy and less detection depth."

It's "critical to understand" that without installed user friendly presets where, yes, the machine is doing some of the interpreting and thinking for users, it would require "a lot more" difficult user understanding and "a lot larger and longer and far more frustrating learning curve." So in order to avoid all of this manufacture's have designed ways to make these machines far more user friendly with near "turn-on-go" technologies.

By comparison, if I were to offer you my old Minelab Sov GT, which is a super machine, or some of the older and capable analog machines, these machines would drive you completely nuts due to the lack of modern user friendly technologies. Most users don't want long and difficult learning curves, but rather they want quick and efficient access to the hobby and so manufacturers are delivering those technologies to them.

"For every action there is a reaction somewhere else."
 

Ok you can dig your everything, but seriously you must be really happy digging iron and basically trash targets.
Not saying your method doesn't work, but it's just not feasible at certain sites.
I have sites that have had probably 3 different houses/structures in a 1 acre plot.
I can listen to a thousand ferrous signals before getting a non-ferrous signal.
Granted if I dug everything I probably would be better off getting a screen and shovel as it would be faster.
Yes I would find some keepers, but time and effort comes at a price.
Nope at this stage of the game it's a trade off.
Getting to know the machine, and what it's telling me.
I hear this perspective, I really do. Searching around a house or a dump site for that matter can be a real tedium trying to navigate a thousand ferrous hits. Nonetheless I do find myself passing over targets that I've later gone and re found to be targets of interest using my usual go to. It does produce a bias, even if I'm "ignoring VDI", oh, it's another iron tone. I sometimes recheck the areas I have hit with the big coil with a pinpointer and in a number of cases my assumption about the target I made with the big coil turned out to be wrong. I guess we should say it's at least partly site dependant, some sites are very iron infested and I know, the bias is there though and I know I've passed up perfectly good targets because of low VDI. There's a lot I could say about the two different styles of detecting i engage in, each has different nuances and features, I use the tools differently when it's one or the other, the way i work a site is different depending on the tool of choice and even the way i look at potential sites is different depending on what i intend to do. Using a big coil is more "generalized" I guess, big sites with less targeted searching, big area to cover etc. pinpointer hunting one has to look around carefully, look at spots that seem likely, "micro sites" as it were, my digs are definitely more controlled and tightly contained for sure, no multiple targets under the coil and in terms of smaller targets the pinpointer does better. Also, I like that I can fairly precisely determine target shape, orientation and size, I can generally tell you if it's a nail or bolt with a pinpointer before I dig. It's just a different game I guess.
Sometimes I do sift if the situation is bad enough, under those conditions the detector tells me where the densest artifact deposit is and then I just start digging and sifting, literally survey the area first to establish where the hot spot is. In any case I hear ya, I just think the VDI does really induce a bias that can hinder the end game. I like the element of surprise sometimes lol
 

Also, I like that I can fairly precisely determine target shape, orientation and size, I can generally tell you if it's a nail or bolt with a pinpointer before I dig. It's just a different game I guess.
Say what now? :icon_scratch:
 

Say what now? :icon_scratch:
With a good pinpointer you can totally determine target shape depending on depth and size, a nail at two inches is elongated, you can literally trace it's length in the soil by paying heed to the strength of the response as you move the tip back and forth. As I said, it truly is a different game especially at smaller scales. If you haven't you might try experimenting with it some time, it's a different experience
 

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