Where do you think the Lost Dutchman mine is?

[djui5]

I thought it would be fun for people to talk about, within reason, where they think the LDM might be. This is a thread to discuss what the mine means to you. What clues are important? What general area of the range do you think it is in? I would like to keep debates over the validity of clues out of this thread.

So where do you think it might be?

 

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[Oroblanco]

Arizona! (Kidding buddy this should be a good discussion!)

 

[cw0909]

I would like to keep debates over the validity of clues out of this thread.

does that include the matchbox

 

[Oroblanco]

I will bite -
I am more than half convinced that the mine is located on the fringe of the Superstition Wilderness Area boundaries. Along much of the southern, eastern and northern boundaries, even the geologists who did the studies to create the Wilderness Area found the lands to be mineralized, some places highly mineralized, and this is why some areas were excluded from the Wilderness Area. Plus we know that a number of silver mines were found to the East and several good to excellent gold mines were found just NW of the Wilderness Area in Goldfield. It is not nearly so exciting to go hunting for the lost mine, so near to the roads and highways instead of hiking for miles into the mountain, but my money is, that is where the mine will one day be found - outside the boundaries, and not even one mile from a road.

Please do continue amigos,
Oroblanco

 

[Old]

Before I answer may I ask a very dumb question?

From Roger's Spring which way does the normal watershed flow? And is that a break point between the shed to the Gila and to the Salt?

 

[Hal Croves]

Coordinates 34°24′53″N 112°24′14″W or somewhere in that general area.
But the Dutch Jacob's mine, if it exists, should be somewhere inside the SWA.
IMO.

 

[Azquester]

I will bite -
I am more than half convinced that the mine is located on the fringe of the Superstition Wilderness Area boundaries. Along much of the southern, eastern and northern boundaries, even the geologists who did the studies to create the Wilderness Area found the lands to be mineralized, some places highly mineralized, and this is why some areas were excluded from the Wilderness Area. Plus we know that a number of silver mines were found to the East and several good to excellent gold mines were found just NW of the Wilderness Area in Goldfield. It is not nearly so exciting to go hunting for the lost mine, so near to the roads and highways instead of hiking for miles into the mountain, but my money is, that is where the mine will one day be found - outside the boundaries, and not even one mile from a road.

Please do continue amigos,
Oroblanco

You know you may be right Amigo I've seen many an old ruins while hiking though there that may just fit the bill as he lost luny Jacob mine.

He said "Find my out house and find my mine" well I may have just found it!
It's a rest stop near Goldfield just off the highway!

Seriously, I believe with those vague directions he gave to a bunch of non-listening non-caring people on his deathbed will never lead to anything at all until all that lumber he used to hide it finally caves in.

 

[sgtfda]

Right where Herman pointed from his shack. Near iron mountain. You can still see that exact view today standing on his doorstep. If you know where that doorstep is.

 

[azblackbird]

So where do you think it might be?

Take your pick. The Supers or the Bradshaws. My guess is that the ore in his candle box came from one of his claims in the Bradshaws. Who knows though, it could have came from anywhere. By all appearances the dude definitely got around... even in his golden years. Gotta give him props for still prospecting when most his age were long dead and buried.

 

[gollum]

Right where Herman pointed from his shack. Near iron mountain. You can still see that exact view today standing on his doorstep. If you know where that doorstep is.

Frank,


Hermann Petrasch thought the LDM was on or about Tortilla Mt. Gottfried and Rhiney thought it was on Peter's Mesa. One of the reasons I believe that Peter's Mesa was named as such for Gottfried "Old Pete" Petrasch.

To be more specific:

"Many people have gone into the Superstitions to look for the Lost Dutchman Mine" he said, "and their greed has cost them their lives. I have done a little searching, yes, but I'm afraid to look too far. I believe the mines are not meant to be found. "There's a curse on the gold," Herman continued. "I am not a superstitious man—except in regard to these mountains. There is a curse on those mountain slopes and canyon walls, a curse which has existed since early territorial days when the Spaniards and Indians first started to quarrel. Many fierce battles—notably the massacre at Walnut Canyon—have been fought between white men and red in these mountains—and the reason for most of the bloodshed was gold. "Herman got up from his chair and crossed to his front door. He pointed to the north. "Straight north of here over there," he indicated "is IronMountain; a little west is White Mountain. There are two old Spanish mines there, making ten that I know of in the Superstitions."

Excerpt from January 1954 Desert Magazine. Interview by Mary Bagwell with Hermann Petrasch.

He knew about two old Spanish Mines between White and Iron Mountain. He DID NOT believe either of them to be the LDM, or he would have said so. He believed the LDM was on Tortilla Mt.
Mike

 

[sgtfda]

Herman had claims near Rodgers

 

[gollum]

Herman's Camp was in a cave on Tortilla.

Here is the entire article:



Now, as we should all know by now that Hermann got several things VERY wrong. Waltz's name for one. While he was very adamant that the name was Walzer and not Waltz or Walz, we know by virtue of censuses that his name was indeed Waltz. He also got several other things (that we today know) wrong. The article says all.

Mike

 

[azdave35]

mike...clay worst also interviewed petrash and published it in desert magazine...do you have a copy of it or know which issue it was in?

 

[sgtfda]

Mike I'm only saying what he would do. Personally I think the whole family had issues

 

[azdave35]

Mike I'm only saying what he would do. Personally I think the whole family had issues

you got that right frank...thats why i dont put alot of stock in what the petrash's said

 

[gollum]

azdave35,

I don't have it. If you could tell me the approximate year, I can find it in about a minute.

Frank,

Of course the whole family had issues. But if you read that article, you will find a few very interesting things! According to Hermann, Waltz told BOTH Rhiney and Julia that he had TWO mines. He called one "The Placer" and the other "The Quartz". He said Waltz found the Placer first, then later on found the quartz.

The reason I like this article by Mary Bagwell is because when I read it, I don't get the impression that it has been changed at all from what Hermann actually said to her. I believe that some of the information in Sims Ely's Book as well as "The Bark Notes" has been censored by the Bark/Spangler Families. I also believe that most stories about Hermann Petrasch in most books are either censored or given some poetic license. That was the only interview I have read about him that gives that much info. I REALLY like the way Hermann triaged his "Walzer Clues". He talked to Julia separately from Rhiney, and asked them both the same questions. He knew Rhiney was a drunk, and his word could not be relied on, so, any question that both Julia and Rhiney answered the same, he put down as an important clue. Everything else was suspect to him.

Mike

 

[azdave35]

azdave35,

I don't have it. If you could tell me the approximate year, I can find it in about a minute.

Frank,

Of course the whole family had issues. But if you read that article, you will find a few very interesting things! According to Hermann, Waltz told BOTH Rhiney and Julia that he had TWO mines. He called one "The Placer" and the other "The Quartz". He said Waltz found the Placer first, then later on found the quartz.

The reason I like this article by Mary Bagwell is because when I read it, I don't get the impression that it has been changed at all from what Hermann actually said to her. I believe that some of the information in Sims Ely's Book as well as "The Bark Notes" has been censored by the Bark/Spangler Families. I also believe that most stories about Hermann Petrasch in most books are either censored or given some poetic license. That was the only interview I have read about him that gives that much info. I REALLY like the way Hermann triaged his "Walzer Clues". He talked to Julia separately from Rhiney, and asked them both the same questions. He knew Rhiney was a drunk, and his word could not be relied on, so, any question that both Julia and Rhiney answered the same, he put down as an important clue. Everything else was suspect to him.

Mike

mike...i read the article years ago but can seem to find it now...i'm thinking it was in desert magazine late 40's to early 50's...it had some pics of clay worst when he was a very young man...had a flat top hair cut....lol

 

[Hal Croves]

Herman's Camp was in a cave on Tortilla.

Here is the entire article:

View attachment 1153993 View attachment 1153994

Now, as we should all know by now that Hermann got several things VERY wrong. Waltz's name for one. While he was very adamant that the name was Walzer and not Waltz or Walz, we know by virtue of censuses that his name was indeed Waltz. He also got several other things (that we today know) wrong. The article says all.

Mike

Actually, all we know with certainty is that there was a man in Phoenix who used the name Jacob Waltz. Until his full story is known, until he can be tracked from cradle to grave, the name Walzer is still one possibility.

 

[gollum]

Actually, all we know with certainty is that there was a man in Phoenix who used the name Jacob Waltz. Until his full story is known, until he can be tracked from cradle to grave, the name Walzer is still one possibility.

Hal,

No way there were two. What Hermann didn't have back then was the internet, city records online, ancestry.com, ISTG, and several other places where we can follow Jacob Waltz. The name is spelled Waltz on his Citizenship Papers, census in Los Angeles, his participation in the Weaver/Peeple's Party, his records in Phoenix, the newspaper article about his death (I am pretty sure Julia would have made sure they got his name right), and several other places I can't name off the top of my head (don't forget his tombstone). Can you show me any any such trail through the same areas for a Jacob Walzer? We have it all from Jacob Waltz, but no Walzer.

I don't know if you can access ancestry.com, but I can. When I look for Jacob Walzer, I get a guy that came over from LaHavre to New York in 1860, and lived his life in the Northeast. NO Walzer on ANY records on Arizona. Same thing for Walz (Ft Leavenworth, KS, and Missouri). Nothing in Arizona. Waltz (on the other hand) is chock full of records.

How can you even throw something like that out there? Besides the people that knew him personally, that told the stories of where he lived and such, then those stories coincide with the written record of him in Phoenix. Too much of a paper trail for that to even be a remote possibility.

Mike

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

No way there were two. What Hermann didn't have back then was the internet, city records online, ancestry.com, ISTG, and several other places where we can follow Jacob Waltz. The name is spelled Waltz on his Citizenship Papers, census in Los Angeles, his participation in the Weaver/Peeple's Party, his records in Phoenix, the newspaper article about his death (I am pretty sure Julia would have made sure they got his name right), and several other places I can't name off the top of my head (don't forget his tombstone). Can you show me any any such trail through the same areas for a Jacob Walzer? We have it all from Jacob Waltz, but no Walzer.

I don't know if you can access ancestry.com, but I can. When I look for Jacob Walzer, I get a guy that came over from LaHavre to New York in 1860, and lived his life in the Northeast. NO Walzer on ANY records on Arizona. Same thing for Walz (Ft Leavenworth, KS, and Missouri). Nothing in Arizona. Waltz (on the other hand) is chock full of records.

Mike

If there was an early name change (common with foreign names), there should be no record of Jacob Walzer. You wrote that Walzer arrived in 1860 and lived his life in the NorthEast. Where exactly and doing what? I have a Jacob Walzer, miner, in Colorado but it's anyone's guess at this point.